What counts as a Covid death in Taiwan?

The biggest group of covid death is 0 vaccination.
0 vaccination is the smallest group among the adult population about 10%
2 and 3 vaccination account for the other 90%.
If covid did not have anything to do with those death shouldn’t the vaccination status be represented accordingly?

1 Like

I’m not referring to vaccination status, I’m referring to the relative contribution of the chronic diseases to the incidence of death. To what extent did cancer, et al, contribute to the death? To what extent did Covid? That is not stated. Hence, my questions, “Can Covid contribute 0% to any death to be labelled as a ‘Covid death?’ Simply on the basis of a positive Covid result?”

If a triple-vaccinated 90 year old with stage 4 bowel cancer, and approx. 3 days to live, tests positive for Covid and dies in three days time, to what extent did Covid, the cancer, or even the vaccine itself (yes, see VAERS - 1004 registered suspected vaccine-related deaths in the 65 and over age group so far) contribute to that death? Same goes for a 90 year old with no chronic disease history and zero vaccines. Did they die of Covid? Or just ‘old age’? Or something else? We’re not given that information.

The absence of such data renders further extrapolations from it (vaccinated vs unvaccinated) basically statistically meaningless. The data doesn’t indicate what people think it does, because such actually meaningful and useful data isn’t being collected as it should. Why this is so is another topic for discussion.

Additionally, the CECC recently admitted they had been lumping in drownings and suicides as ‘Covid deaths,’ and they finally decided to end that practice. One thus wonders if, down the track, they may similarly remove ‘deaths caused by cancer/ diabetes/old age’ from their total Covid death tallies (though I doubt this will happen, as they need some numbers to throw up, however faulty the data is on which it is based).

So, when removing all comorbidity status from the (incomplete) data, we’re seeing less than 10 ‘Covid’ deaths every day, with the very elderly being highly represented in those numbers (70s-90s).

(As a side note, in 2020 there were 10,659 suicides in Taiwan in the 15-24 age bracket alone. That’s around 29 suicides per day in that year. Last week, over 1000 flu or pnu deaths. Also, cancer kills about 140 in Taiwan every single day. Etc. No similar focus/ press conferences/ concerns/ mass societal interventions, etc.)

2 Likes

All this rumbelbumble with your numbers will not distract me from the fact that the covid death toll is based on a vaccinated population and we only can guess what it would’ve looked like with Delta free on the loose.
What do you not like about publishing these numbers?
Clear to see now, not vaccinated people have a much higher chance of dying from covid.

1 Like

Unfortunately, none of us (you included) are able to ascertain an accurate

nor confirm or deny that

based solely on the data provided by the government, as there’s no information on the relative contribution of Covid, nor the comorbidities, to the death itself. To boldly declare, “XYZ people died of Covid today!” is misleading, at best.

It is what it is. I wouldn’t expect politicians and governments to do anything less than publish such data. They’ve hitched their wagon to the Covid train and ride it they will.

Speaking of rumblebumbling about numbers, that the government itself acknowledged that they’ve been artificially puffing them up gives me a little hope, but the daily publishing of these numbers (and headline deaths) is unlikely to stop until they’ve used the jabs they’ve purchased. The fear of death is the fuel for the vaccination program, and the daily press conferences for something that has 99.6% either zero or mild symptoms, and very very few deaths solely of Covid (sans comorbidities), keeps the whole thing rolling.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/860970/taiwan-suicide-mortality-rate/

In 2020, 3,656 deaths were caused by intentional self-harm in Taiwan, equivalent to slightly under 12 deaths per 100,000 residents. The number of suicide deaths remained relatively stable in Taiwan in the past decade, fluctuating between 3,507 in 2011 and 3,871 in 2017.

From the Taipei Times article:

"Last year (2020), 10,659 young people aged 15 to 24 committed suicide, accounting for 26.4 percent of all suicides, with depression or mental illness reported as the cause in most of the cases, the report said.

The number of suicides among young people has risen each year, with 4,365 suicides in 2016, 4,905 in 2017, 6,352 in 2018, 7,991 in 2019 and 10,659 last year, Control Yuan members Fan Sun-lu (范巽綠), Lin Yu-jung (林郁容), Chi Hui-jung (紀惠容) and Su Li-chung (蘇麗瓊) said in the report."

And that’s just in the 15-24 age group.

1 Like

I would double-check those numbers (mine too by the way), especially coming from paper/politician, and growing at an inexplicable rate between years.

Better source: |台灣臨床試驗資訊平台

Since the ‘Covid death numbers’ are also coming from politicians and papers, then maybe we could also double check them as well while we’re at it :wink:

Maybe the suicide numbers are inaccurately reported. If true, sounds like a pandemic. Maybe (maybe, I’m not sure) they refer to suicide attempts, although the articles state categorically they were suicides, for example, “The number of suicides among young people has risen each year…” They don’t say ‘suicide attempts.’

BTW here’s another article confirming rising suicide rates among young people in Taiwan, and another one showing that there were 575,000 suicide calls that year, with connection rate of only 33%.

2 Likes

They are not…

This is what I suspect: in the article there is confusion between “attempted suicide rate” and “suicide rate.” It is why it is growing inexplicaly.

same source ^^

In 2014, 5.1 percent of students in Taiwan aged between 15 and 24 attempted suicide, which increased to 6.4 percent in 2017 and to 9.1 percent last year, the lawmaker said.

No comment!

In any case, the topic and thread is ‘What counts as a Covid death?’ Suicides among Taiwanese youth is another topic altogether. Your initial response did nothing to alter the fact that the ‘Covid death’ data has little meaning, unless and until we actually know the relative contribution of it and other factors to that death.

And personally, I believe the mental health of our children is a far greater concern, and thus far more deserving of our attention as a society, than Covid. Whether the number of young people killing themselves is 1 or 10,000 a year, that’s 1 or 10,000 too many. 575,000 suicide calls a year doesn’t say much for the society.

How many of these unvaccinated are immunocompromised or too old or too sick to take the vaccine? How many have just refused to get a jab?

1 Like

True. Gramps with stage 4 lung cancer, three previous heart attacks, and a few weeks to live may not have been overly concerned with getting three shots. Or his doctor may have advised against it.

1 Like

It sounds like you’re suggesting that getting vaccinated wouldn’t have helped him pull through the cancer and heart attacks. You cynic.

3 Likes

It mght have. Then again, it might not. There are currently 1004 suspected vaccine-related deaths in the 65 and over age group.

Guilty as charged :slight_smile:

1 Like

I find it completely baffling that people still think this, and I can only assume it’s partly to do with the shitty quality of maths education these days, and partly a complete refusal to acknowledge that life has a 0% survival rate.

As @FairComment pointed out, these people were nearing the end of their lives. It’s possible that some of them might have lived another two weeks, or another six months, or whatever, if they had not caught COVID and/or had been jabbed. Is that really a Good Thing? Would they not have simply died of something else instead? There comes a point in one’s life when death is not a tragedy but merely the closing of the books, and often a release from pain and humiliation. Perhaps you’ve never experienced the deaths of relatives, but in my limited experience, there is more nuance in the event that you seem to imagine.

In any case your statement is false as written, and unverifiable if you had actually written what you meant to say (“…have a much higher chance of dying if they catch covid”). As @gareth186 pointed out, we don’t know what the vaccination rate is in the demographic “old people who are very sick”. It’s generally assumed that the rate is the same as healthy old people, but this is not necessarily true. Even if we asssume (with no evidence) that they are 15% unvaccinated, that puts the vaccine effectiveness in this population at 50% - which is quite remarkable given that they’re all at death’s door. If they were 40% unjabbed - which is not entirely implausible, given their condition - then the vaccine effectiveness would be zero. Or of course they might be more vaccinated than the average, but the point is, we don’t know, because the CECC aren’t telling us. Perhaps they don’t even realise it’s important. Perhaps they don’t care.

The reason your statement is false as written is that the vast majority of old people simply do not experience symptomatic COVID; in other words, they survive. 68,000 British people over 70 died “of or with COVID” in 2020, and according to the NHS about half of them were in hospital for something unrelated to COVID. So 8.765 out of 8.8 million old codgers failed to die of COVID, a survival rate of 99.6%. Curiously enough, twice that number died - after 98% of them had been vaccinated - during 2021, many of them during the normally “mild” omicron wave. It’s something of a mystery why that happened - nobody seems very keen to investigate the reason.

3 Likes

So, are you saying that the deaths/100 000 people numbers are fluffed up by young people being forced to get triple vaxxed? Does this mean that more people are dying/100 000 in the over 60 demographic after vax than un-vaxxed?

No. I think the conversation was purely regarding very old people who are quite obviously not dying of COVID. What’s happening in the cases of younger COVID deaths, or COVID deaths with no recorded comorbidity - I don’t know, but there seem to be so few of them that I’m not sure it merits a daily press conference and an effective state of emergency.

I admit I haven’t combed through the published COVID-death data to pick out the healthy over-60s (those who died with no apparent underlying conditions), and comparing vaxed vs. unvaxed. Again, though, there are so few of them that drawing any kind of conclusions would be inappropriate. What you can say for certain is that the cost of vaccinating them (at the taxpayer’s expense) wasted more life-hours than were (hypothetically) saved.

2 Likes