Sorry, I don’t get the whole Jewish thing, even after many years of trying to figure it out.
I hear people such as yourself say that they are Jewish yet don’t follow their religion, and that makes me wonder if being a Jew is a religious thing, or a cultural thing. Then I think that it can’t be a cultural thing altogether as their are too many types of Jews with different traditions and levels of tolerances . This also disqualifies Jews as being part of one religion too as far as I’m concerned. So that must mean that a Jew is a genetic thing, but then every Jew looks different, but still resembles every other human on the planet, so that can’t be the case either.
As far as I know Jews neither carry membership cards and not all of them carry formal Jew ID either.
So anyway, I’m confused. Either there is no such thing as a Jew, or a Jew is something I am so far unfamiliar with.
Can anyone shed some light on what seems to be an impossible question for me?
This is an honest enquiry. I just don’t get it.
Sulavaca, I have a longer answer but this may suffice. Do you also ‘not get’ the mammalia classification, or Indo-European languages, or ‘Italian cuisine’?
I’m fairly certain the Jewish are neither an independent species or a recipe. I think I sort of get what you are saying, but I can recognise most animal species from the way they look, the same way I can identify the ingredients in a Carbonara and understand the difference between French and Italian without actually knowing how to speak either of them very well.
I know what I mean when I say I am a member of a gym as I have a card to prove it.
But what does a “Jew” do or have specifically to make them a Jew?
Or put it another way…what would I have to do voluntarily or otherwise to make me a Jew?
I mean, perhaps I’m a Jew and didn’t even know it!
[quote=“sulavaca”][quote=“Jaboney”]Sulavaca, I have a longer answer but this may suffice. Do you also ‘not get’ the mammalia classification, or Indo-European languages, or ‘Italian cuisine’?[/quote]I’m fairly certain the Jewish are neither an independent species or a recipe. I think I sort of get what you are saying, but I can recognise most animal species from the way they look, the same way I can identify the ingredients in a Carbonara and understand the difference between French and Italian without actually knowing how to speak either of them very well.[/quote]True. But race or breed would be more accurate, and are decidedly less clear than speciation. And identity is in large part cultural – that’s why I threw in language and cuisine.
A non-religious person might still self-identify as Jewish based on culture or ancestry, and have that assertion accepted or rejected based on some other criteria. Just as someone might tell me that I’m French/English/Norwegian based on ancestry, or German based on ancestry, religion, culture and diet, but I’d reject that classification: I’m an all-Canadian mutt-- an exceptionally vague category, but most reasonable Canadians would more or less agree that I ought to be counted in, and that’s good enough. Some folks with a geographic fetish and impoverished cultural education might say I’m American, but that’s just another reason to carry hockey sticks.
[quote=“sulavaca”]But what does a “Jew” do or have specifically to make them a Jew?
Or put it another way…what would I have to do voluntarily or otherwise to make me a Jew?[/quote]
You can sign up – en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_to_Judaism – and some people would accept that while others wouldn’t.
It’s no different than national/ethnic identity, there’s just an additional religious layer.
[quote=“Jaboney”][quote=“sulavaca”]But what does a “Jew” do or have specifically to make them a Jew?
Or put it another way…what would I have to do voluntarily or otherwise to make me a Jew?[/quote]
You can sign up – en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_to_Judaism – and some people would accept that while others wouldn’t.
It’s no different than national/ethnic identity, there’s just an additional religious layer.[/quote]
So carrying on in a devil’s advocate sort of a style, by your rational if someone doesn’t practice their religion, then they aren’t Jewish.
If its to do with national identity, then Jews must all be born in one place.
[quote=“Wikipedia”]An ethnic group (or ethnicity) is a group of people whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage, often consisting of a common language, a common culture (often including a shared religion) and an ideology that stresses common ancestry or endogamy.[1][2] [3]
Members of an ethnic group are conscious of belonging to an ethnic group; moreover ethnic identity is further marked by the recognition from others of a group’s distinctiveness. Processes that result in the emergence of such identification are called ethnogenesis.[/quote]
I think you may have nailed it with ethnicity Jaboney. At least it satisfies me that is. As a member of an ethic group however I would imagine one would have to follow the same theme of the group. So I guess my next question would be what are the common themes or practices which all Jews partake in? It isn’t language for certain. Heritage may count if a person can inherit history, which I don’t think is possible as nobody can be responsible for what took place before them. Religion seems to be out as far as I can tell as many “Jews” claim to take no part in it. Anyway, I guess if a Jew says they are a Jew and if others accept them as Jews, then they must be Jewish.
I don’t think you’ll find any common themes or practices in which all members of a group partake. Even ethnicity isn’t sufficient in this case, because most Jews are Semitic, but so are the Palestinians. And Sammy Davis Jr. was Jewish, but African American.
[quote]Anyway, I guess if a Jew says they are a Jew and if others accept them as Jews, then they must be Jewish.[/quote]Strikes the right chord to my way of thinking.
I’d shut now but thought of a better Ulysses’ ship analogy you might appreciate.
Let’s say sulavaca is one of the Ten Mechanics who own 10 mint condition Model T Fords. You’ve got your own little club for guys with Model Ts. China invades and you each hit the road, each in a different direction. Exchanging vehicles isn’t an option – you’ve got to drive and somehow maintain what you’ve got. Decades later, there’s a reunion. Every vehicle’s been significantly modified. At what point do you say, “Hey, nice to see you again, but buddy, given what you’ve done to what you’re driving, you really don’t belong in the club any longer”?
If a person converts to Orthodox Judaism in Israel, under the supervision of a rabbi recognized by the Rabbinate of Israel, then all Jews will recognize that person as a Jew. The Torah forbids Jews from treating converts any differently from “homeborn” Jews. The Rabbinate frequently refuses to recognize conversions outside of the Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox branches. In some cases, they won’t recognize even Orthodox conversions outside of Israel if they’re unfamiliar with the temple/rabbi in question. This has led to “just-in-case” conversions for Jews emigrating to Israel, because Rabbinate-authorized conversions make it easier to get wedding certificates and other official documents that name religious affiliation.
[quote=“sulavaca”]Sorry, I don’t get the whole Jewish thing, even after many years of trying to figure it out.
I hear people such as yourself say that they are Jewish yet don’t follow their religion, and that makes me wonder if being a Jew is a religious thing, or a cultural thing. Then I think that it can’t be a cultural thing altogether as their are too many types of Jews with different traditions and levels of tolerances . This also disqualifies Jews as being part of one religion too as far as I’m concerned. So that must mean that a Jew is a genetic thing, but then every Jew looks different, but still resembles every other human on the planet, so that can’t be the case either.
As far as I know Jews neither carry membership cards and not all of them carry formal Jew ID either.[/quote]
There are many different Christian traditions and levels of tolerance, but they’re all still Christian. It’s the same with the religious Jews. There are many Jews who look different to each other, but there is a massive number of ethnic Jews who share common physiological traits and genetic markers.
[quote]So anyway, I’m confused. Either there is no such thing as a Jew, or a Jew is something I am so far unfamiliar with.
Can anyone shed some light on what seems to be an impossible question for me?
This is an honest enquiry. I just don’t get it.[/quote]
There are two typically used senses of the term ‘Jew’:
A member of the Jewish religion, regardless of ethnicity; this simply involves conversion to Judaism
A member of the Jewish ethnic group, regardless of nationality; this involves biological descent from the Semitic ethnic group to which all ethnic Jews belong
[quote=“Fortigurn”]…
There are two typically used senses of the term ‘Jew’:
A member of the Jewish religion, regardless of ethnicity; this simply involves conversion to Judaism * A member of the Jewish ethnic group, regardless of nationality; this involves biological descent from the Semitic ethnic group to which all ethnic Jews belong
Does that help?[/quote]
Just to muddy the waters even further, the second group exists independent of religious affiliation…
For example, while Israel’s population is an estimated 7.6 million, of whom 5,776,500 are Jews, estimates of the percentage of population identified as “secular” Jews vary from 20% to 80%.
[quote=“the chief”]Just to muddy the waters even further, the second group exists independent of religious affiliation…
For example, while Israel’s population is an estimated 7.6 million, of whom 5,776,500 are Jews, estimates of the percentage of population identified as “secular” Jews vary from 20% to 80%.
It’s kind of meshuggah…[/quote]
Yes, good point. You can be an ethnic Jew without being religious at all, just as you can be a religious Jew who is not a member of the Jewish ethnic group. Just as you don’t need to be Jewish in order to be Israeli.
I think I’ve found that guy’s car! I can only say I’m glad though that you didn’t choose the Ford Escort Diesel as a metaphor
With a car though its quite easy to answer as most “clubs” have a set of rules regarding their membership details by which the members must abide by. “Jews” don’t have any as far as I can tell. This means that a Jew could potentially turn up to a Jewish reunion in a Panzer tank made entirely of pork, blaring a Borat song and having brought Mel Gibson along for the date, and then graciously announce that they are “Jewish” so its okay. Now according to those “Jews” I have met in the past and having pieced together an extreme example of components which when individually taken are acceptable to those “Jewish people”, then we have ourselves quite a wacky theoretical example of a Jew. Now of course I don’t imagine any “Jew” turning up to a party in such a manner, but then again, perhaps some Jews just like many Christians would likely just be too fearful of not being accepted enough that they would refrain from the obvious faux pas.
But then again I have likely just made a silly argument that will no doubt be demolished…
Yes they do. There are Orthodox Jews, Conservative Jews, Reformed Jews, and Liberal Jews (to take the four largest groups of religious Jews), and all of them have membership guidelines. As with Christian groups, those guidelines differ between the groups, but all of the groups have their own membership guidelines.
Yes they do. There are Orthodox Jews, Conservative Jews, Reformed Jews, and Liberal Jews (to take the four largest groups of religious Jews), and all of them have membership guidelines. As with Christian groups, those guidelines differ between the groups, but all of the groups have their own membership guidelines.[/quote]
There are ethnic Jews which don’t though. The Ford Model T anecdote doesn’t work in this case. Only those with a vested interest in maintaining the rules of their club have issues, those who don’t, don’t.
What I don’t get at all is the assumption by those who don’t practice anything even closely related to the standards issued by Jewish bodies/religions that they are still somehow Jewish. I wouldn’t be a member of a motoring organization if I didn’t maintain my membership. Would you be suggesting that somehow it is a Jewish person’s allowance to call themselves a Jew, even though they may not be viewed as religious enough by others of the same name?
If this is indeed the case, then can I call myself Jewish from now on?
Of course I already know the answer to this entire argument, but I’m afraid of posting it here as I always receive a good spanking after saying it.
It’s more than having just joined a motoring organization, that’s a bad analogy. If your parents, and most or all of their ancestors going back generations had also belonged to the same organization, probably suffering various levels of discrimination because of it, you might think about it differently, even if you no longer follow the practices of the organization. Even outside of the ethnic aspects it’s understandable developing more or less of an attachment to that sort of identity.
Ethnic Jews which don’t what? Practice the Jewish religion? Sure, but they’re still ethnic Jews.
As I’ve explained, the term ‘Jewish’ is used in two different senses; ethnic and religious. People who don’t practice anything even closely related to the standards issued by Jewish bodies/religion are not called ‘still somehow Jewish’ in the religious sense. You don’t practice anything even closely related to the standards issued by Jewish bodies/religion, and no one calls you Jewish. However, if someone is ethnically Jewish, they are rightly called ‘Jewish’ even if they don’t practice anything even closely related to the standards issued by Jewish bodies/religion.
I am saying that someone who is an ethnic Jew can legitimately refer to themselves as ‘Jewish’ even though they may not be viewed as religious enough by religious Jews.
No you can’t, because you don’t meet either definition of the term. You don’t practice anything even closely related to the standards issued by Jewish bodies/religion, so you’re not Jewish in religious terms. You’re not descended biologically from the Jewish ethnic group, so you’re not Jewish in ethnic terms.
I don’t think you know the answer to this entire argument yet, but the answer is very simple. As I have already said, the term ‘Jew’ is typically applied in two different ways. It can refer to a member of the Jewish religion, or it can refer to someone who is biologically descended from the Jewish ethnic group.
You can trace your familial history, generally through at least your mother’s line, to a Jewish ancestor
or
You undergo conversion to a subgroup (as listed above) accepting converts by the process accepted within the group.
Of course, if one doesn’t fall into one of these groups, one can still walk around calling oneself a Jew, but with neither a legitimate ethnic claim nor adherence to any of the tenets of Judaism in general, well, why would one want to?
Especially since, irrespective of one’s self-identification, one would find it extremely difficult to find acceptance among any of the existing subgroups, which would seem to be among the significant goals of such identification.
But, if the question of ‘who is a Jew’ was so simple, why is there such a firestorm of debate over the issue in the Jewish community?
I suspect that part of the problem is that the late 20th century marked the first time that being Jewish wasn’t an automatic negative. Before that, no one in their right mind (or even left mind) would DARE refer to themselves as Jewish unless they were.
Also, the creation of the State of Israel has muddied the waters, as well as polarizing the debate. Just because you are Jewish, doesn’t mean that you are pro Israel, and being pro-Israel doesn’t mean being Jewish.
I have Jewish Israeli friends who positively HATE religious Jews. I have religious Jewish friends who HATE secular Jews and Palestinian friends who are completely confused by the whole thing. And, all three are on my Skype contact list.
Since when? The only controversy of which I’m aware has been the difficulty of determining the ethnic claims of different individuals and groups, a challenge made complicated by lack of accurate historical genealogies, but simplified recently by genetic research.
No you can’t, because you don’t meet either definition of the term. You don’t practice anything even closely related to the standards issued by Jewish bodies/religion, so you’re not Jewish in religious terms. You’re not descended biologically from the Jewish ethnic group, so you’re not Jewish in ethnic terms.[/quote][/quote]
That’s not fair! When I consider that there weren’t any Jews before their religion, and that the pure invention of their religion didn’t all of a sudden reprogram their genetic code to make them somehow “special”, then surely anyone in fact can be “Jewish” if indeed they want to be known as Jewish. As I said earlier, “Jewish” cannot simply be earned surely from a history which isn’t part of the person’s background. If it can then I myself must be a whole host of names which I don’t identify with. I mean if I can trace some long lost routes back to being German, then can someone call me a Nazi, even though I don’t believe or practice Nazi philosophies or traditions.
For the term “Jew” or “Jewish” to make any sense to me at all then a “Jew” must practice a simple set of standards and abide by a simple set of easy to follow codes which their entire group also agrees to adhere to. Variations on said structure must automatically un-subscribe them from the order.
If “Jews” can all call themselves Jews and yet always disagree about what makes each other Jewish, then that doesn’t make sense to me and this is why I have difficulties accepting that there is such a thing as “Jewish”. If being a “Jew” can be taken as meaning all sorts of things, then why should I suffer discrimination if I want to be known as a Jew?
Its the same problem with arguments about Nationality as far as I’m concerned. Certain British nationalists might argue that you aren’t British if you weren’t born there, or if you’re of a non traditional colour. I would argue that anyone who’s weight is being supported by the land known as Britain is in fact a British person, or in other words “a person of Britain” which I think makes more sense. I don’t understand arguments about birth certificates and how many generations back a person’s lineage covers before being accepted as a “member” of the community. I think this is an argument of mine by the way will, in the not too distant future, become the next evolution of our liberal type minds.
That’s not fair! When I consider that there weren’t any Jews before their religion, and that the pure invention of their religion didn’t all of a sudden reprogram their genetic code to make them somehow “special”, then surely anyone in fact can be “Jewish” if indeed they want to be known as Jewish. [/quote]
That doesn’t follow logically. It’s been pointed out that A. Jewish people do share common genetic ethnic heritages, B. common cultural backgrounds and C. a common history. What more do you need for a people to be a people? Can you say you’re Swedish or Catholic just because you want to? You can but what’s the point and who will care?
I think that when you’re talking about people of similar racial background, Caucasians say, cultural and historical background is far more important than genetics. You can’t see another person’s genes. If you come from a German background, we can call you German. If you don’t, you can claim to be German, and no one may ever be the wiser, but again what’s the point?
[quote]
For the term “Jew” or “Jewish” to make any sense to me at all then a “Jew” must practice a simple set of standards and abide by a simple set of easy to follow codes which their entire group also agrees to adhere to. Variations on said structure must automatically un-subscribe them from the order.[/quote]
You seem to be insisting on considering Jewishness in its religious aspect only. Historically, it’s crystal clear, indisputable, that there is much more to it than that.
