What if she's not up for a commitment?

Guys, I’ll start a new thread about a question that just popped into my head regarding this thread : we are assuming she is desperate to marry because she allegedly said she’s into a serious commitment and wants to get married. What if the girl -not this one, any other girl, Taiwanese or not- says: I do not want to get married, ever? What is he says: I’m Ok with you now, but no kids, no formal commitment, living together just fine? Would you immediately head for the hills or would you stay and enjoy the moment as it is? Or would you try to talk her out of her stubbornness? Would you wait it out, hoping she’ll change?

:roflmao:

Great thread, Icon.

The answer is: it depends.

I think any man under (say) 45 would be absolutely delighted with that arrangement. Not because it gives one the option to walk away, but because it shows she has enough confidence in her own abilities to keep the relationship together (at least for as long as she wants to) without the government getting involved. That’s a rare thing. I believe this is true even if you have kids together. It’s up to you to make it work, one way or another. There is no lawyer standing behind you waving a piece of paper saying “ah, but you have to stay together for the children”.

There are also plenty of men who really don’t want kids. I think I’m one of them. Sometimes I like the idea, but mostly I think I’d be a crap parent. I have, in fact, been there, done that, did my best, and I was a crap parent (in my estimation). I have no wish to impose my ineptitude on another set of kids (albeit this time carrying my genes, and I suppose somewhat less inept with the benefit of experience). Also, I don’t like the idea of putting my wife/gf through the gorefest that is childbirth, although obviously most people take it in stride.

After 45, I think the game changes. You’re on the downhill slope to your appointment with the guy with the scythe. Marriage is a lot more about mutual support through one’s final years. There are different emotions involved. I suppose it’s nice if the person you’re with at that time is also the person you grew old with, but I don’t think it’s essential.

I think it’s a pity people are railroaded into marriage because they think that’s the way it goes. You leave school, you get a job, you meet someone, you get married, you have kids, you slave away for the next 40 years to pay for … whatever needs paying … and then you die. WTF? Is that really what life is about? A tape loop, replayed over and over, 100 million times a year? No. Just no.

Finley,

Great post. I thank God that I have made it to 33, without a career, or children. I have been dating the same woman for about four years now.

“Un roto para un descosido” Icon. (roughly translates to a broken one for a torn one).
There are matches out there, there is people that live fine with just being together, no commitment, no kids. There’s people OK with swapping wife’s and hubbys, there’s old fashioned people who want to take the regular route, i like you>GF & BF> marriage> happy family. That’s why like (I think it was Tommy) said in another thread, your best bet is to lay down the cards on the table and work something out. Peer/family/culture and even age pressure is a bitch, and can alter this logical way of doing things… and this is true worldwide…
Myself? I dunno what the hell I want, I’ll know when it hits me in the face.

[quote=“Pein_11”]“Un roto para un descosido” Icon. (roughly translates to a broken one for a torn one).
There are matches out there, there is people that live fine with just being together, no commitment, no kids. There’s people OK with swapping wife’s and hubbys, there’s old fashioned people who want to take the regular route, I like you>GF & BF> marriage> happy family. That’s why like (I think it was Tommy) said in another thread, your best bet is to lay down the cards on the table and work something out. Peer/family/culture and even age pressure is a bitch, and can alter this logical way of doing things… and this is true worldwide…
Myself? I dunno what the hell I want, I’ll know when it hits me in the face.[/quote]

I don’t agree that you will know what you want when it hits you in the face. Sometimes people are not ready for a relationship at a certain age. That doesn’t even mean being young. One might be 40 or 50 and just got out of a career and want to see the world and don’t want to be tied down. People cannot be defined easily. You just have to live life and deal with your own idiosyncrasies on a daily basis. If you are in a relationship, you have to deal with the idiosyncrasies of your partner as well.

[quote=“steelersman”]
I don’t agree that you will know what you want when it hits you in the face. Sometimes people are not ready for a relationship at a certain age. That doesn’t even mean being young. One might be 40 or 50 and just got out of a career and want to see the world and don’t want to be tied down. People cannot be defined easily. You just have to live life and deal with your own idiosyncrasies on a daily basis. If you are in a relationship, you have to deal with the idiosyncrasies of your partner as well.[/quote]

You may not agree, but your mantra isn’t far from mine, I am living my life and dealing with it everyday, and I’ve been placed in a position when I need for the smoke to clear before I can make judgement or find what I want for myself many times before, and now, there is a lot of smoke. The one thing that threw me off is the “being tied down” part… you’re free, if you make a decision that lands you in a place you don’t like being in (Def. tie down - restrain from independence by an obligation;) well, shame on you for not having your priorities set.
Back on topic, but mixing it in with this: If you put up with someone who has completely different ideas/necessities, if you don’t speak up, if you suppress your desires, or the most important… if you don’t work/talk it out… you’re gonna be tied down.

My experience is that there certainly are TW women (or women in general) who do not want to get married yet or maybe never. But in my case at least its been mostly they didnt want to marry ME !

Which is fine.

To finley: That train of thought is just a train. You have to be on a train to get somewhere, but its YOUR journey even if the destination is known. Each man/woman is on Earth to play his/her role. Whatever happens at least make YOUR act Academy Award worthy. Even if its a minor role (arent most of us playing minor roles? ) .

If you cant be Best Actor or Best Actress , then how about Best Supporting Actor/ Best Supporting Actress?

Personally I think our life on Earth is like a college. We have perhaps a calling to something more when its all done.

[quote=“steelersman”][quote=“Pein_11”]“Un roto para un descosido” Icon. (roughly translates to a broken one for a torn one).
There are matches out there, there is people that live fine with just being together, no commitment, no kids. There’s people OK with swapping wife’s and hubbys, there’s old fashioned people who want to take the regular route, I like you>GF & BF> marriage> happy family. That’s why like (I think it was Tommy) said in another thread, your best bet is to lay down the cards on the table and work something out. Peer/family/culture and even age pressure is a bitch, and can alter this logical way of doing things… and this is true worldwide…
Myself? I dunno what the hell I want, I’ll know when it hits me in the face.[/quote]

I don’t agree that you will know what you want when it hits you in the face. Sometimes people are not ready for a relationship at a certain age. That doesn’t even mean being young. One might be 40 or 50 and just got out of a career and want to see the world and don’t want to be tied down. People cannot be defined easily. You just have to live life and deal with your own idiosyncrasies on a daily basis. If you are in a relationship, you have to deal with the idiosyncrasies of your partner as well.[/quote]

Pein: I translated that one literally: a shoe with a hole for a mended sock -I think we brought it up for Tommy’s thread.

Steelerman: I do believe guys are ready for commitment first, and then they meet the right girl. We’ve all heard the stories about couples that have been together 7 or 10 years, get married … and split soon afterwards. Then you have my favorite case: couples that have been together also like 7 years, split… guy gets married 3 months later… A beauty! But then you have to remember: maybe it is not you, maybe it is just the combination of bothg of you that does not quite click or it wasn’t the right time.

Steelerman has a point: you gotta know your partner, you have to knwo what they want. No one’s perfect and no one is 100 percent sure/right all the time.

A woman like that in this society is a rarity. I had a ex-GF that uses to brag about being totally “westernized”. Then the reds flags started to appear: “My friends are getting married, my family is starting to bother me…” then you know she is starting to show her real colours and traditional views. In other countries some peoples date for years until they feel really comfortable to settle down. If you cave in to her family demands now, this is going to set the pattern for your relationship later on. “My family this, my family that…” Someone mentioned that a man doesn’t marry a woman here, her family is well included in the packet. My ex-GF also told me that since her parents were not against me (a white man) dating her, the least I could do was to marry her right away instead of waiting for 5 years. So now I’m careful when I see women bragging that they are “westernized”, most of them are phonies and use this as a line to get a white man’s attention.

Well anyone who claims that they have escaped the culture they have grown up in his full of shit. There might be that 1 in 1000 person. But I believe that one can never escape their upbringing. One can try to hind it but it will resurface and some point in time!

A lot of women in the west are like that as well. It’s certainly not limited to Taiwan. :2cents:

Yep, and not all Western women are not up for a marriage commitment, and even then there are variations: the ones that want the guy but not the kids, the ones that want the kids but not the guys. Western does not mean marriage allergic, as much as Taiwanese does not mean marriage friendly -look at the statistics here, so many single women, ask any woman how’s the dating pool these days East or West. Worse than the stock market.

What if she had said: well, I normally wouldn’t even consider mariage, they would have to walk me up an altar with a shotgun to my head, but you’re such a special guy, I might consider it?

[quote=“Icon”]Yep, and not all Western women are not up for a marriage commitment, and even then there are variations: the ones that want the guy but not the kids, the ones that want the kids but not the guys. Western does not mean marriage allergic, as much as Taiwanese does not mean marriage friendly -look at the statistics here, so many single women, ask any woman how’s the dating pool these days East or West. Worse than the stock market.

What if she had said: well, I normally wouldn’t even consider mariage, they would have to walk me up an altar with a shotgun to my head, but you’re such a special guy, I might consider it?[/quote]

“How the dating pool is,” has to do more to do with popular perception (as well as culture) than reality. Since no one is perfect and most of us are not models, both men and women need to be a little be more accepting of the flaws of the oposition gender.

Or be alone if you like, but people need to look in the mirror rather than blame the other sex for their lack of dating opportunities. Your expectations may not align with reality.

Whomever or whatever you give your time to is like selling your life. What are you getting in return for such a prize? Life is short. Sell yourself wisely

Hypothetically speaking; If I loved her it wouldn’t matter and I would respect this persons’ [not even a gender issue for me] wishes. I’m big enough to let other people have their choices.

I once read a study that looked at time of courtship prior to marriage and marriage success rates. They said the ideal time to be a couple before marriage (that is, who were more likely to still be married after “X” amount of years) was about 2 years. Those who got married after less than a year of dating didn’t have the time needed to properly assess the other person, and those who dated many years before marriage were usually attempting to salvage a long-term relationship. I always thought 2 years was ideal. It’s usually long enough to see the many colors of a person, and if you don’t want to marry them after 2 years it’s probably a sign you will never really want to. Not so say marriages after short-term or long-term dating are necessarily doomed to failure

Referring to Icon’s original post: no problems. Sounds great, actually.

[quote=“steelersman”][quote=“Icon”]Yep, and not all Western women are not up for a marriage commitment, and even then there are variations: the ones that want the guy but not the kids, the ones that want the kids but not the guys. Western does not mean marriage allergic, as much as Taiwanese does not mean marriage friendly -look at the statistics here, so many single women, ask any woman how’s the dating pool these days East or West. Worse than the stock market.

What if she had said: well, I normally wouldn’t even consider mariage, they would have to walk me up an altar with a shotgun to my head, but you’re such a special guy, I might consider it?[/quote]

“How the dating pool is,” has to do more to do with popular perception (as well as culture) than reality. Since no one is perfect and most of us are not models, both men and women need to be a little be more accepting of the flaws of the oposition gender.

Or be alone if you like, but people need to look in the mirror rather than blame the other sex for their lack of dating opportunities. Your expectations may not align with reality.[/quote]

I meant more on risks taken on return. Culturally, in the ol country, it’s the worst, with 60% failure -more than 1 in 2 couples, dunno how they get those numbers. You invest time and care for another person, get a heartbreak most probably, but also can get lucky and hit an Apple stock back in 87…

A person partricipating in teh stock market neds to evaluate the options and know the field he/she is getting into. Same in dating: you need to see what is in front of you, not waht you want to see. As said, there are no perfect princes/princesses. I agree that expectations are our worst enemies, but goals, those shouldn’t be negotiable. There is a stock metaphor for that, too, not selling yourself short, not accepting less than the best, but then that can be distorted, too. Mended sock/shoe with a hole we all are. But accepting someone’s faults should not included trampling over you, for example. We’re looking for a half orange to enrich ourr lives, not a half lemon to make us bitter.

What I also meant that it was worse than the stock market is that info on another perosn is harder to get reliably than on certain stocks. And predicting how it will go? No one has invented the software yet.

[quote=“Icon”][quote=“steelersman”][quote=“Icon”]Yep, and not all Western women are not up for a marriage commitment, and even then there are variations: the ones that want the guy but not the kids, the ones that want the kids but not the guys. Western does not mean marriage allergic, as much as Taiwanese does not mean marriage friendly -look at the statistics here, so many single women, ask any woman how’s the dating pool these days East or West. Worse than the stock market.

What if she had said: well, I normally wouldn’t even consider mariage, they would have to walk me up an altar with a shotgun to my head, but you’re such a special guy, I might consider it?[/quote]

“How the dating pool is,” has to do more to do with popular perception (as well as culture) than reality. Since no one is perfect and most of us are not models, both men and women need to be a little be more accepting of the flaws of the oposition gender.

Or be alone if you like, but people need to look in the mirror rather than blame the other sex for their lack of dating opportunities. Your expectations may not align with reality.[/quote]

I meant more on risks taken on return. Culturally, in the ol country, it’s the worst, with 60% failure -more than 1 in 2 couples, dunno how they get those numbers. You invest time and care for another person, get a heartbreak most probably, but also can get lucky and hit an Apple stock back in 87…

A person partricipating in teh stock market neds to evaluate the options and know the field he/she is getting into. Same in dating: you need to see what is in front of you, not waht you want to see. As said, there are no perfect princes/princesses. I agree that expectations are our worst enemies, but goals, those shouldn’t be negotiable. There is a stock metaphor for that, too, not selling yourself short, not accepting less than the best, but then that can be distorted, too. Mended sock/shoe with a hole we all are. But accepting someone’s faults should not included trampling over you, for example. We’re looking for a half orange to enrich ourr lives, not a half lemon to make us bitter.[/quote]

Icon, but what one is investing may not be worth a lot on the market. We would all like to buy Apple stock at the price it was in 1987, but the reality is we can’t. In reality, on my 60,000NT salary and with average looks I might dream to marry a Taiwanese model, but it isn’t going to happen.

Not to mention the other flaw in your argument, one might have expectations (goals) but that doesn’t mean that they are in line with reality. That is why socialization and television may be more to blame with people’s dating woes than the dating market being poor. Maybe being single is better. However I doubt that we will really ever know since our decisions are partly being influenced by society rather than what we really desire in our hearts. For example not getting married is more acceptable today. However this may influence some people who want long term relationships or marriage not to seek them out since society is telling them that being single is better and that you shouldn’t settle for anything less than your ideal match.

Well, in Spanish we also have a saying, the worst pig get the best corn. It seems cruel but sometimes people you do not think are worth it -an unstable character that may beat his/her partner, for example- lands what is considered blue stock -a hard working sweet person. We have seen many such cases. What I mean to say is that your currency might not be all that its worth, true, or valued by the market.

Your example of the model reminds me of Tommy’s puicture of what in the long run would be a more expensive, teh Ferrari or the model. So maybe it is better your dream does not come true.

Expectations often meet the reality of the market right on. Even on a 60K salary, finding a suitable home at Daan might not be possible, you can buy in Linkou but the commute/the environment will not be pleasant. Then, why not wait until the market is right or rent in an area more suitablke to your needs? Same with peopole. You can settle for a companion that may not be all you “expect”, as long as there are no deal breakers -sorry, I join the non smoking campaign, kisses taste yucky for example- or you can delay/wait it out/give up. It is a choice. The choice, as you say, might be based on society’s expectations -has to be a model looks kind of woman!- or maybe someone puts a good cook above all. Choices, informed or otherwise, are made. We all pay the price, one way or another. But at least we have a choice. That is not bad.