What is Chen Sui-Bien's Place in Taiwan History?!?

Politics Taiwan Politics
21

I don’t think they were fabricated, but they were obviously scrutinized, and as the leader of Taiwan I think he deserved the scrutiny.
[/quote]

either you are a blue supporter and refuse to read anything that’s contrary to what you like to see, or you have not been keeping up with the CSB cases.

In at least one case SID coerced the Jeffrey Koo, Jr. to make up incriminating accusations against CSB. In other cases there were simply of evidence to even charge CSB.

Even though the court acknowledge that CSB didn’t receive the money, they still used that testimony to charge CSB in Longtan case anyway.

This, and other cases that convicted CSB under the made up rule of “practical influence of position (實質影響力說)” even though no evidence shows that CSB of wrong doing, suggests that the SID was put under pressure to incriminate CSB by any means necessary. They had more than 10 cases on CSB, they just wanted one of them to stick so badly, they’d force a confession. It seems like they weren’t certain that any of the charges would stand in the first place.

The fake confession and “practical influence” accounts for the 2 cases where CSB have been found guilty without chance of appeal, and that’s 20 years CSB is sentenced to serving.

[quote]
First of all, in my understanding, Ma allowed the Chinese capital to enter the media by allowing 旺旺’s purchase of 中天電視. In Chen’s term, TVBS had to go through Hong Kong, as was alleged of having Chinese capital behind it, but had to go the long way to avoid being caught. Your second point was improbable during Chen’s term, as he was green to the core, and blue will never sit down and talk peace or move forward between their disagreements. [/quote]

You can also argue that Want Want isn’t Chinese capital, but it’s intention is pretty plain for everyone to see. But back to CSB, TVBS’s intentionally used provoking CSB’s family members as a tactic to pain Chen’s family in a bad light.

22

Geez…Chen flat-out admitted to taking campaign funds and having them wire-transferred overseas. He gave a press conference in which he apologized to the people for it.

“My conscience has told me that I cannot continue to lie to myself or to others, so I will choose to be bluntly honest: I have, in the past, committed deeds that are against the rule of law, and I am willing, for all campaign finance dishonesty from my four elections for mayor and for president, to apologize to the people.”

I know a bunch of the charges didn’t stick, but he WAS dirty. He DID break the law.

23

[quote=“Taiwanguy”]Geez…Chen flat-out admitted to taking campaign funds and having them wire-transferred overseas. He gave a press conference in which he apologized to the people for it.

“My conscience has told me that I cannot continue to lie to myself or to others, so I will choose to be bluntly honest: I have, in the past, committed deeds that are against the rule of law, and I am willing, for all campaign finance dishonesty from my four elections for mayor and for president, to apologize to the people.”

I know a bunch of the charges didn’t stick, but he WAS dirty. He DID break the law.[/quote]

He’s a politician, and he graduated from NTU law school, it’s a given.

His only fault was, he got caught.

I have utmost respect for LTH for being discreet :laughing:

24

[quote=“Taiwanguy”]Geez…Chen flat-out admitted to taking campaign funds and having them wire-transferred overseas. He gave a press conference in which he apologized to the people for it.

“My conscience has told me that I cannot continue to lie to myself or to others, so I will choose to be bluntly honest: I have, in the past, committed deeds that are against the rule of law, and I am willing, for all campaign finance dishonesty from my four elections for mayor and for president, to apologize to the people.”

I know a bunch of the charges didn’t stick, but he WAS dirty. He DID break the law.[/quote]

As I recall, there was no law specifying what would happen to campaign funds after an election. All they were required to do is report back how much campaign funds they’ve received. Chen admitted he didn’t report the full amount. Prosecution didn’t charge him because they deemed it not a criminal offense, but rather an administrative penalty.

What else?

25

I hear Lee Teng-hui lives on a very nice property that one would wonder how someone could get on a government salary. Then again, LTH went up through the ranks during the time when if you didn’t participate in the game (corruption), you don’t move up. Nobody would trust you.

26

LTH’s wife had a very rich dad who owned much of the north coast even after land reforms.

But what does any of that has to do with CSB?

27

Who invented the falsehood that political leaders of Taiwan Independence or Nationhood are uneducated lower class from Tainan?

28

Who said that? That is just prejudice!?! Wait, where is CSB from again? I have no clue whoever implied that…

Don’t worry, he’s going to die anyways, but I doubt he would consider suicide at his nice apartment down in Kaoshiung :no-no:

I don’t even want to listen to him talk, let’s pray that he doesn’t start rapping all of a sudden in Taiwanese, we have enough noise in Taiwan already :fume:

He ain’t a crook, he just borrowed some money for the greater good of Taiwanese, but how come we don’t get to live in his nice apartment?
He should consider making it a national park or a tourist site, since we all know where that money came from, our tax money :smiley:

29

LTH’s wife had a very rich dad who owned much of the north coast even after land reforms.

But what does any of that has to do with CSB?[/quote]

The KMT let LTH’s wife’s dad keep his land? Or was it they gave them government bonds instead of outright stealing it? Damn Socialist KMT.

Also, in both Chinese and Japanese culture, the woman’s family gets the dowery, not the guy. The wealth goes to the son, not the daughter and son-in-law. Was LTH’s wife an only child?

30

LTH’s ancestors were already well off before the Chinese fled to Taiwan. He inherited his father’s wealth.

If LTH or his father could prove that he was an able bodied man, then the Chinese Nationalist could not take away his land. At most the Chinese Nationalist imposed what the maximum rent could be.

On the other hand, my grandfather passed away in 1950 leaving behind a young widow and kids that were barely toddlers. Almost all of the three hectares of farm land was taken away by the Chinese Nationalist. My father recalled spending most of his childhood accompanying his mother going from courtroom to courtroom, to no avail.

31

[quote=“sofun”]LTH’s ancestors were already well off before the Chinese fled to Taiwan. He inherited his father’s wealth.

If LTH or his father could prove that he was an able bodied man, then the Chinese Nationalist could not take away his land. At most the Chinese Nationalist imposed what the maximum rent could be.

On the other hand, my grandfather passed away in 1950 leaving behind a young widow and kids that were barely toddlers. Almost all of the three hectares of farm land was taken away by the Chinese Nationalist. My father recalled spending most of his childhood accompanying his mother going from courtroom to courtroom, to no avail.[/quote]

Can you please explain the difference between the two cases? I’m not fully understanding, thanks.

32

[quote=“jamezku”][quote=“sofun”]LTH’s ancestors were already well off before the Chinese fled to Taiwan. He inherited his father’s wealth.

If LTH or his father could prove that he was an able bodied man, then the Chinese Nationalist could not take away his land. At most the Chinese Nationalist imposed what the maximum rent could be.

On the other hand, my grandfather passed away in 1950 leaving behind a young widow and kids that were barely toddlers. Almost all of the three hectares of farm land was taken away by the Chinese Nationalist. My father recalled spending most of his childhood accompanying his mother going from courtroom to courtroom, to no avail.[/quote]

Can you please explain the difference between the two cases? I’m not fully understanding, thanks.[/quote]

The question initially posed was, could LTH buy his residence with government salary by working for the Chinese Nationalist after ww2.

Yes. In the LTH case, his family’s private estate (land) could have been kept as long as they have able-bodied men in the families. Sure the rent they collected could not exceed 37.5%. But LTH’s families have been wealthy for generations before him, so even if the rent they collected was reduced by the Chinese Nationalist, they’d still have wealth existing in other forms such as Japanese Yuan or business assets when the Chinese Nationalist fled to Taiwan. According to Lee himself he opened up a bookstore when he was still in university. It didn’t do well and he shut it down. He even had money to travel to China and to study abroad.

In my family case, my father’s father was a 1st generation land owner, who purchased a moderate 3 hectare in the countryside with salary he earned as a government employee. Substantially all of his wealth was invested in the farmland, so when the Chinese Nationalists came and stole his land after he passed away, the widow and kids became literally homeless beggars.

The difference between the two cases lie in whether there is a weakness in the family. If there is, then the Chinese Nationalist would take advantage of it and make you utterly miserable.

33

Chen’s place in Taiwan history? Most likely a forgotten footnote.

34

I tried pretty hard to find some poll numbers about Taiwanese attitudes toward Chiang Kai-shek, but I could only find one poll that seemed at least somewhat relevant, and it was a translation, and it was not focused on Chiang Kai-shek. (Perhaps if I’d start studying Chinese instead of becoming so engrossed in the doings on this board, I’d have better luck with such things.) Anyway, this purports to be a translation of an excerpt of a United Daily News article of December 17, 2007, taken from the website of the National Policy Foundation:

taiwannpfnews.org.tw/english … &anum=3736

Judging from this snippet that I found on Google Books–granted, it’s an oldie–it doesn’t seem likely that United Daily News could be realistically accused of having a Pan-Green bias:

[quote]. . . we at United Daily News insist on “one-China” and “unification” . . .[/quote]–quoted in Chien Jung-hsu, The Construction of National Identity in Taiwan’s Media, 1896-2012 goo.gl/djCKZW

Now, there’s more about Chiang Kai-shek’s poll results in that translated article that I quoted first, and I’m not exactly contradicting what you say; I just want to add a little perspective to things.

35

[quote=“sofun”]The question initially posed was, could LTH buy his residence with government salary by working for the Chinese Nationalist after ww2.

Yes. In the LTH case, his family’s private estate (land) could have been kept as long as they have able-bodied men in the families. Sure the rent they collected could not exceed 37.5%. But LTH’s families have been wealthy for generations before him, so even if the rent they collected was reduced by the Chinese Nationalist, they’d still have wealth existing in other forms such as Japanese Yuan or business assets when the Chinese Nationalist fled to Taiwan. According to Lee himself he opened up a bookstore when he was still in university. It didn’t do well and he shut it down. He even had money to travel to China and to study abroad.

In my family case, my father’s father was a 1st generation land owner, who purchased a moderate 3 hectare in the countryside with salary he earned as a government employee. Substantially all of his wealth was invested in the farmland, so when the Chinese Nationalists came and stole his land after he passed away, the widow and kids became literally homeless beggars.

The difference between the two cases lie in whether there is a weakness in the family. If there is, then the Chinese Nationalist would take advantage of it and make you utterly miserable.[/quote]

I guess this is not that much different from the Cultural Revolution we learned in the textbooks then. Sorry to hear the loss, but I’m sure it has made you stronger. God Bless :slight_smile: