It also puts homosexuals in jail, has public caning, and the press there is about as free as that of Russia.
India is also extremely unequal. The caste system does not help despite the government’s “effort” to stop it (they care about stopping caste system as much as Taiwan care about traffic). I rather be poor in America than poor in India or Brazil
It also puts homosexuals in jail, has public caning, and the press there is about as free as that of Russia.[/quote]
Okay, I didn’t think we were including civil rights. In which Taiwan would on balance be a real developed country.
It also puts homosexuals in jail, has public caning, and the press there is about as free as that of Russia.[/quote]
Okay, I didn’t think we were including civil rights. In which Taiwan would on balance be a real developed country.[/quote]
I thought we were including them. Aren’t they part of politics in a way?
It also puts homosexuals in jail, has public caning, and the press there is about as free as that of Russia.[/quote]
Okay, I didn’t think we were including civil rights. In which Taiwan would on balance be a real developed country.[/quote]
I thought we were including them. Aren’t they part of politics in a way?[/quote]
Maybe I need to go back to the beginning of this thread. 
By that standard you could include Saudi Arabia, good infrastructure but no civil right
And why would that be? In many ways Taiwan is much more developed than Japan, take for instance gender equality, while Japan shares many of Taiwan’s problems (and adds a few of its own).
And why would that be? In many ways Taiwan is much more developed than Japan, take for instance gender equality, while Japan shares many of Taiwan’s problems (and adds a few of its own).[/quote]
I mean generally speaking. Just like what Hokwongwei said, Japan is miles better than the rest of this continent in most ways. It has little corruption, fairly nicer urban planning, people ride bikes like Dutch and Danes do, rule of law etc. Japan is also a very popular place for studying abroad for Taiwanese students, which makes it particularly stand out. Frankly speaking, when people talk about Germany or UK or Sweden, Japan is the only Asian country that isn’t out of place lining up with them.
Of course Japan has its issues, every country has.
And why would that be? In many ways Taiwan is much more developed than Japan, take for instance gender equality, while Japan shares many of Taiwan’s problems (and adds a few of its own).[/quote]
I mean generally speaking. Just like what Hokwongwei said, Japan is miles better than the rest of this continent in most ways. It has little corruption, fairly nicer urban planning, people ride bikes like Dutch and Danes do, rule of law etc. Japan is also a very popular place for studying abroad for Taiwanese students, which makes it particularly stand out. Frankly speaking, when people talk about Germany or UK or Sweden, Japan is the only Asian country that isn’t out of place lining up with them.
Of course Japan has its issues, every country has.[/quote]
Just like Taiwan, it has an excellent (arguably even better) export sector while the rest of the overprotected and uncompetitive economy shoves crap-quality products and services into the internal market. There are also: gangsterism; corruption, particularly in the construction sector; superficial democracy with a single dominant party; disenfranchisement of young people; xenophobia-fuelled, legally-sanctioned discrimination (although Japan really takes it to the next level, when even the Koreans who immigrated there 100 years ago are still “foreigners”) and even food scandals (heavy metal-infested, illegally-fished dolphins passing for whale meat anyone?).
While places in “Central Tokyo” (Asakusa, Ginza, Roppongi, etc.) look much better than anywhere in Taipei, it’s a playground for the rich; Taipei, while generally ugly and chaotic, is much more livable for an average person (maybe not entirely a fair comparison as Tokyo is larger though).
On top of that, Japan additionally has the aforementioned gender inequality issues, which means that half of the population’s talents and skills go to waste due to cultural constraints (I remember reading a newspaper article about a divorced mother who actually emigrated to the US as this was easier than finding a kindergarten or someone to take care of her kids while she was at work), as well as mandatory binge drinking for “salarymen,” chain smoking to the point that second-hand smoke is unavoidable, and a lot of assorted weird issues resulting from an inhibited society. It also celebrates its wartime past, while at least the KMT here don’t celebrate 2/28.
Towards a more balanced view (as I’ve focused on the negatives for the sake of argument), in Japan everything is more polite (if only the surface), and certain areas such as the traffic are much more civilized but overall, I’d say that it is the Chinese culture that is much more conducive towards development as opposed to the Japanese one, it just hasn’t had it chance yet due to all kinds of disturbances, revolutions, and self-inflicted damage. Japan, on the other hand, had none of these for a considerable time and has already peaked, so if Taiwan really tries to copy Japan, it’d be going the wrong way. Why not copy some Western country instead?
[quote=“Doraemonster”]
Just like Taiwan, it has an excellent (arguably even better) export sector while the rest of the overprotected and uncompetitive economy shoves crap-quality products and services into the internal market. There are also: gangsterism; corruption, particularly in the construction sector; superficial democracy with a single dominant party; disenfranchisement of young people; xenophobia-fuelled, legally-sanctioned discrimination (although Japan really takes it to the next level, when even the Koreans who immigrated there 100 years ago are still “foreigners”) and even food scandals (heavy metal-infested, illegally-fished dolphins passing for whale meat anyone?).[/quote]
Yes, they have fair share of problems, but the corruption and the food scandals of Japan are nowhere near the level here. Can you imagine an excessive oil scandal like what we’re having here happening in Japan? I can’t. They’re having problems with their seafood now because of that earthquake, you can’t really blame them for natural disasters. Illegal-fishing is bad though.
Btw our export sector is anything but excellent, 40% of it depends on fucking China. China is also Japan’s largest trade partner though, but consider the proximity of the two countries, Japan is doing a fairly good job at balancing it, especially when you compares it with Taiwan, South Korea, or Australia.
[quote]
While places in “Central Tokyo” (Asakusa, Ginza, Roppongi, etc.) look much better than anywhere in Taipei, it’s a playground for the rich; Taipei, while generally ugly and chaotic, is much more livable for an average person (maybe not entirely a fair comparison as Tokyo is larger though).[/quote]
Why is Taipei more livable than Tokyo? The housing in Taipei is way worse, the roads and streets in Taipei are murderous, the scooters are disgusting, the food security is about as bad as in China, and the salary is pathetically low(Japan is not that expensive tbqh). I’m sure you understand those.
[quote]
On top of that, Japan additionally has the aforementioned gender inequality issues, which means that half of the population’s talents and skills go to waste due to cultural constraints (I remember reading a newspaper article about a divorced mother who actually emigrated to the US as this was easier than finding a kindergarten or someone to take care of her kids while she was at work), as well as mandatory binge drinking for “salarymen,” chain smoking to the point that second-hand smoke is unavoidable, and a lot of assorted weird issues resulting from an inhibited society. It also celebrates its wartime past, while at least the KMT here don’t celebrate 2/28.[/quote]
The gender inequality is really bad in both Japan and South Korea, I don’t deny it. I don’t see how second-hand smoke could be worse than motorcycle waterfalls though.
Btw French people smoke a lot too. Like seriously, A LOT. When I was in France almost everybody I met smoked.
As for its wartime past, it was appalling, but there’s difference between Japan’s invasion and White Terror. Japan killed foreigners during the war, White Terror killed our own people. I’m not saying that Japan was right, god no, but it makes sense for Japanese to pay tribute to their compatriots. Americans also look up to their military very much, even though they invaded Iraq for unjustified reason.
[quote]
Towards a more balanced view (as I’ve focused on the negatives for the sake of argument), in Japan everything is more polite (if only the surface), and certain areas such as the traffic are much more civilized but overall, I’d say that it is the Chinese culture that is much more conducive towards development as opposed to the Japanese one, it just hasn’t had it chance yet due to all kinds of disturbances, revolutions, and self-inflicted damage. Japan, on the other hand, had none of these for a considerable time and has already peaked, so if Taiwan really tries to copy Japan, it’d be going the wrong way. Why not copy some Western country instead?[/quote]
Both Chinese culture and Japanese culture are very conservative imo. And I didn’t suggest that we should try to copy Japan, I was just saying that it remains the only Asian country that is on par with European and North American countries.
There’s the issue of radioactive contamination, I’d say it’s pretty serious too. My intuition tells me that the overall food pollution is worse in Taiwan, but I don’t follow the Japanese news that closely, and just because we don’t know about something doesn’t mean it isn’t there.
On a general note, it’s a dawn of hope that at least most of this stuff comes out to light here, if belatedly, while in some other places it might be swept under the carpet. The presence of bad news does not make Taiwan bad; on the contrary, it makes it better. I’d be much more worried had there suddenly been no bad news leaking out.
Taiwan is smaller, so it’s more specialized, and it doesn’t have the heavy industries (export-grade, anyway) but it still has quite a few world-class performers for its size in the areas such as IC foundries or TFT LCDs. Japanese zaibatsu (財閥) developed through dubious insider lending, while the most successful Taiwanese companies developed despite the lack of lending from the banking sector, while misguided government policies diverted credit to politically well-connected wannabe conglomerates. Although it was a huge misallocation of capital, as a result the export-grade Taiwanese companies are more lean and excel at cost-cutting, and they endured the 1997 and 2008 crises much better.
Interdependence is not a problem. The problem is the parochiality, and the loss of business and development opportunities caused by it. This is an issue both in Japan and in Taiwan but while the former has already wasted its chance (recall the recent news that a tiny fluctuation in Samsung’s stock price was equivalent to the entire valuation of the once-gigantic Sony), the latter is still on the crossroads. Taiwan is too insular, especially for such an export-oriented country, but Japan is even more insular. It can even be seen on a personal level: the Taiwanese suck at English, but at least they keep trying; in Japan, people will do a runner to avoid the need to use it.
I don’t deny that Taipei is uglier but the ugliness applies more uniformly to everyone, whereas in Tokyo some people have it very good while most of the others have it even worse than in Taipei. The comparison is not entirely fair however, as Tokyo is a larger city that should be compared primarily with London or New York and not anything else. It’s also a matter of subjective opinion. That being said, living in Taipei, you will have a much shorter commute on a much better metro system, and a relatively larger apartment (although in an ugly building).
Try Denmark.
I disagree with this argument in its entirety. I’m not really here to debate politics (in fact I carefully avoid such topics) but what kind of tribute does it “make sense” to pay to mass-murdering war criminals? Criminals who, by the way, also didn’t mind killing their own people, not only “foreigners” as you say, as if it were somehow more justified. And let’s not forget these “foreigners,” such as the ones in Pearl Harbor, were on their own soil while being killed, so, while technically correct, the way you use the f-word here is obscuring reality.
Do you really think America has ever done anything comparable? I disagree with that. The comparison with Iraq is specious. If we’re looking to draw a parallel, it’s more as if the German chancellor paid a visit on a yearly basis, in an official capacity, to a Nazi mausoleum, and if the swastika flag were an optional substitute for the official German tricolor. Fortunately, the Germans had much more sensitivity, particularly since the times of Willy Brandt, and as a result of the multilateral efforts at reconciliation the history is not an issue in Europe anymore.
Here we also differ. I don’t think it’s “on par.” It’s just another place, nice and interesting, but with its own set of issues that Taiwan has largely avoided, and some other problems common with Taiwan, for which they also don’t have solutions.
To summarize my point: Taiwan is not as bad as you paint it, Japan is not that fantastic, and it doesn’t hold the answers for Taiwan’s malaise. Everything that Taiwan could learn from Japan it has already learned, so if it needs inspiration from one of its former colonial powers, I’d suggest the Netherlands instead. For starters, there’s even a parallel between stinky tofu and [wikipedia]Limburger cheese[/wikipedia].
I personally would see Japan at a different level from everywhere in Asia, perhaps excepting Korea. Korea is coming up fast. That is not to say living in Tokyo would necessarily be easier than Taipei, the commute time alone would be a killer for me. Their air is cleaner and their paving in the cities and driving is a lot better of course. You can drink the water in Tokyo from the tap, I wouldn’t do that in Taiwan. Every country has their good and bad parts of course but Japan overall seems to have more ‘good parts’ than the rest of Asia.
The insularity of Japan and Taiwan is could be said to holding them back somewhat, and especially in terms of exports of services, but insularity is common around the world and especially in Asia. South Asia seems more attuned to the world at large due to their history and mix of ethnicities, but most countries in South Asia are a mess.
The Japanese students at my university overwhelmingly wanted to return home and work there when they graduated, unlike the Chinese and Taiwanese students who were desperately seeking a way to stay in the US. That makes all the difference.
I don’t know how fair this comparison is, though. Just look at the population difference between these two countries.
im surprised that singapore even have slums. it’s so tiny. kind of like dubai. too small to even have slums.
how do you guys compare taiwan with south korea? do taiwanese still think they are even on a par with koreans? i feel like koreans have surpassed taiwan already economically, politically and culturally.
Based on their unbelievably bad made TV dramas I don’t think Korea is far ahead of Taiwan. And they still have no sense of style, they seem to mix everything together randomly and hope for the best when in comes to design, fashion, colors, etc.
The PTB were happy enough to have Taiwan classified as “underdeveloped” in order to get concessions and special treatment in trade deals, currency, etc. Moreover, the mentality here is really to be like China… in the 80’s… compete at lower and lower costs.
As to comparisons, given the panic over the trade deal China/Korea, you’d think it is the end of the world. But then, these are the same people pushing to enter the RCEP and TPP at all costs -or what better excuses…
[quote]Taipei, Nov. 11 (CNA) Taiwan’s economy has entered a mediocre era of low growth due to the lack of a locomotive to serve as a driving force, a local expert warned Tuesday, saying that from a long-term perspective, the country’s economic growth is slowing down.
Cheng Cheng-mount, president of the Taipei-based research institute the Taiwan Academy of Banking and Finance, said in a speech at a forum in Taipei that he is pessimistic about the development of Taiwan’s economy.
…
But once the China-South Korea FTA goes into effect, coupled with the delay in the legislative ratification of a trade-in-services agreement between Taiwan and China, Cheng predicted, the growth of Taiwan’s exports for 2015 will drop to 2.5 percent.
…
About 80 percent of South Korea’s export products are similar to those of Taiwan, and about 40 percent of Taiwan’s exports go to China, said Sun Ming-te, director of the Taiwan Institute of Economic Research’s Macroeconomic Forecasting Center. The impact of the FTA between China and South Korea is expected to become apparent from the second half of 2015 at the earliest, he added.
Once the FTA takes effect, it will cause Taiwan’s gross domestic product to drop by 0.5 percent and Taiwan’s exports and total production value will drop by US$3.75 billion and US$8.9 billion, respectively, according to the Ministry of Economic Affairs.
The steel, machine tool, automobile, flat panel, petrochemical, glass and textile sectors will be among the most severely affected, the ministry said.
[/quote]
and
[quote]South Korea’s completion of a free trade agreement with China will cause great damage to Taiwan’s industrial sector, and even lead to a massive job loss, the Taipei-based Chinese National Federation of Industries (CNFI) warned Tuesday.
Mark Lin, a CNFI standing board member and chairman of Feng Hsin Steel Co., said Taiwan’s manufacturers could close their plants, directly contributing to the loss of up to 500,000 jobs, he warned.[/quote]
Not internationally competitive… only China matters… must sell out to compete… excuses, threats to close shop and leave people jobless… same old same same…like a broken record.
[quote=“Doraemonster”]
To summarize my point: Taiwan is not as bad as you paint it, Japan is not that fantastic, and it doesn’t hold the answers for Taiwan’s malaise. Everything that Taiwan could learn from Japan it has already learned, so if it needs inspiration from one of its former colonial powers, I’d suggest the Netherlands instead. For starters, there’s even a parallel between stinky tofu and [wikipedia]Limburger cheese[/wikipedia].[/quote]
Unfortunately the Netherlands is a bit too progressive for us lol. Bitch legalized gay marriage 14 years ago. 
[quote=“forealz”]im surprised that Singapore even have slums. it’s so tiny. kind of like dubai. too small to even have slums.
how do you guys compare taiwan with south korea? do taiwanese still think they are even on a par with Koreans? i feel like Koreans have surpassed taiwan already economically, politically and culturally.[/quote]
Singapore has poverty issue.
Imo, South Korea is better than Taiwan in certain ways and way worse than Taiwan in others. They are so awfully homophobic, sexist, and xenophobic. Which is saying something as Taiwan isn’t exactly that gay-friendly, gender equal, and tolerant in the first place.
As MM found, it depends on how you define developed. If it’s just economically, Korea beats Taiwan into the ground, but in Taiwanese society you don’t see people jumping off buildings every day out of the stress of their jobs, and women are doing fairly well in modern society despite a cultural bias against them.
Which reminds me of something I heard just the other day. Two middle-aged ladies on the Mert were discussing their children, and one said she is giving a home to a her son but not her daughter. The other replied: “Don’t put boys before girls or you’ll regret it.” My reaction:
Then she added: “Because it may be your daughter who is the one looking after you in your old age.” 
Typical selfish old lady.
[quote=“Hokwongwei”]As MM found, it depends on how you define developed. If it’s just economically, Korea beats Taiwan into the ground, but in Taiwanese society you don’t see people jumping off buildings every day out of the stress of their jobs, and women are doing fairly well in modern society despite a cultural bias against them.
Which reminds me of something I heard just the other day. Two middle-aged ladies on the Mert were discussing their children, and one said she is giving a home to a her son but not her daughter. The other replied: “Don’t put boys before girls or you’ll regret it.” My reaction:
Then she added: “Because it may be your daughter who is the one looking after you in your old age.” Typical selfish old lady.[/quote]
…and yet suicide is fairly prevalent here, usually economic related and it goes in waves. It was pretty bad a few years ago. You had whole families killing themselves and murder-suicides too. The two people I know happened to be female, both had economic problems along with relationship problems.
The whole son/daughter thing has played out in my in-laws, most of them finally realised that daughters are more likely to look after and care for the elderly and changed their mindsets.
Koreans are more chauvinistic and more aggressive and more patriotic in general than Taiwanese, but otherwise not a huge difference between the societies, very similar in fact.
I am a Taiwanese, studying in the University right now. Our best students, best teachers/professors, and the most talented young people of our generation are all preparing to leave for North America or Western Europe. They don’t just go there and live for a while, they are gonna immigrate there permanently! I am aiming at the U.S. or Germany myself. Need I say more?