Wait for the Communist Party to lose it’s grip in China?
Yeah, we could also have a Goose Egg Chase, Tempo Gain Drive, Hokwongwei Way, etc etc. 
You could be waiting a long time. There are endless possibilities, but nothing indicates the PRC will collapse anytime in the forseeable future.
As for changing road names… the people don’t care. When citizens ask for Zhongzheng Rd. to be renamed, elected officials should listen. But most voters right now are fine with roads and districts being named after the great dictator, even if this offends our Western democratic sensibilities. Changing things without their support is a great way to earn their scorn.
[quote=“PeregrineFalcon”]Alternative: Treat China like any other country - Belgium, Algeria, India, etc.[/quote]Those other countries do not have an announced policy of taking over Taiwan and the military power to do so.
As long as the average Taiwanese person continues to believe that their road to wealth is through China, the mainland won’t even consider force. China’s ploy has been and I think will continue to be fooling Taiwanese people into believing they need China for money…not just any money, but the money they get. This is clearly not true and Ma’s absolute failure in even one economic success marker (and lots of empty promises) has created a set back to be sure. However, China’s inviting people from all sides of the political arena (Chen Chu was there not long ago) for “economic forums” shows that they know what motivates people. I hate to compare with US politics, but it’s kind of how the Republicans get mouth breathing trailer trash who collect social security and welfare to vote for them by listening to Limbaugh, who tells them that government taxes are destroying them when in reality it’s only people like Limbaugh who really thrive under Republican tax policies. The average Taiwanese person will not see any direct or indirect increase in money from closer economic ties with China, but Ma’s promises that this would be true are what got him elected (twice! even when it was clear he was full of sh*t) and it will continue to drive how people here view reunification with China.
A million better ways to make more money than selling your country out to China exist and to me that’s not difficult to understand. But people here being as they are, they would much rather believe that a magic fairy (Ma) will wave a magic wand (ECFA) and their bank accounts will magically increase- poof: the average Taiwanese salary is US$30k annually (that’s what he promised). It didn’t happen and it won’t happen-but how much you want to bet that China wins this “war” by convincing people it will happen?[/quote]
You may be right.Many Taiwanese have made money from work or investment in the mainland and the CCP wants to encourage them.Right now Beijing thinks it is on the path to eventual reunification without firing a shot but that may change if Ma’s policies are abandoned.
[quote=“greves”][quote=“redpolko”]
You have some very interesting ideas.Are they purely yours or are they shared by any organizations in Taiwan?[/quote]
Of course I’m going to take a huge amount of flak for saying this, but many of them have been policy positions of the DPP since A-bian… excepting the internationalization stuff. But there are plenty of organizations that support internationalization in and of Taiwan, too.[/quote]
Why would you get flak if what you say is true?
[quote=“redpolko”]
Why would you get flak if what you say is true?[/quote]
Because people are uncomfortable with the idea the CSB may actually have been on the right track after all.
[quote=“yuli”]
Appeasing a bully and aggressor? I don’t think that makes sense - at best it delays the inevitable.
If Vietnam, the Philippines, Taiwan, Japan, and Korea got their act together they would form a defense alliance and economic cooperation network.
Those 5 countries would explicitly renounce all territorial ambitions (for Taiwan this would mean to change the constitution) and thus gain the moral support of many moderate countries in the world.
Faced with the explicit stance of this alliance to not attack anybody, China’s expansionists and hawks would lose steam and moderates in China would gain.
The timing is good right now, since there are signs that moderates in China are on the up.
[/quote]
Yuli I need you to talk more on these points. Could you share some information?
Has China been complaining to anybody in NEA and SEA about potential invasion by anyone launched from Formosa?
Have Chinese netizens and diplomats etc been using the roc constitution as an excuse in convincing fellow NEA SEA friends to dissociate themselves with Taiwan?
Taiwan is fixing our internal problem of this irrational anti-Korean sentiment, and also the problem of SEA discrimination. There is some work done butwe need measurable statistics to check progress. Communication is key.
[quote=“Hokwongwei”]You could be waiting a long time. There are endless possibilities, but nothing indicates the PRC will collapse anytime in the forseeable future.
As for changing road names… the people don’t care. When citizens ask for Zhongzheng Rd. to be renamed, elected officials should listen. But most voters right now are fine with roads and districts being named after the great dictator, even if this offends our Western democratic sensibilities. Changing things without their support is a great way to earn their scorn.[/quote]
Road name changing is exceptionally complex in Taiwan. So I don’t think we can make any sure judgments based on this. What we can do is look at how nearly every statue of the dictator was removed and thrown away once people were given the choice. And how people have rejected attempts by various cultural ministries to get people to show love for CKS.
[quote=“sofun”][quote=“yuli”]
Appeasing a bully and aggressor? I don’t think that makes sense - at best it delays the inevitable.
If Vietnam, the Philippines, Taiwan, Japan, and Korea got their act together they would form a defense alliance and economic cooperation network.
Those 5 countries would explicitly renounce all territorial ambitions (for Taiwan this would mean to change the constitution) and thus gain the moral support of many moderate countries in the world.
Faced with the explicit stance of this alliance to not attack anybody, China’s expansionists and hawks would lose steam and moderates in China would gain.
The timing is good right now, since there are signs that moderates in China are on the up.
[/quote]
Yuli I need you to talk more on these points. Could you share some information?
Has China been complaining to anybody in NEA and SEA about potential invasion by anyone launched from Formosa?
Have Chinese netizens and diplomats etc been using the roc constitution as an excuse in convincing fellow NEA SEA friends to dissociate themselves with Taiwan?
Taiwan is fixing our internal problem of this irrational anti-Korean sentiment, and also the problem of SEA discrimination. There is some work done butwe need measurable statistics to check progress. Communication is key.[/quote]
When you say SEA discrimination,do you mean treatment of guest workers from southeast Asia?What is the anti-Korean sentiment you speak of?Could you clarify a bit?
Yes that’s right. SEA discrimination is a kind of discrimination against peoples who have darker skin tone OR against the peoples whose countries are less economically developed. SEA discrimination is an extension of discrimination against native/aboriginal Formosan, AND an extension of discrimination against Southern Hokkien in general.
Anti-Korean sentiment is a kind of irrational and hostile feelings towards Korea. This sentiment is based on an Chinese-centric world view, mixed with jealousy of Korea achieving higher economic standing and national prestige than the roc administration.
[quote=“Hokwongwei”]Ma’s China policy is built on the 1992 Consensus, which is strictly speaking a lie. The “consensus” was unilateral – the ROC negotiator (Su Chi) said there is only one country on this planet called China, and both Taiwan and the mainland (and presumably Mongolia and Hong Kong and Macau) are parts of it. That was the policy of both the government in Beijing and the government in Taipei at the time. The part that Su made up is that the PRC and the ROC agreed to disagree on which one of them was the rightful China. So if the consensus holds, foreign media reports should say “China claims Taiwan as a renegade province, and Taiwan claims China as a bunch of renegade provinces.” Most journalists don’t care about getting those facts straight though.
While it’s called the 1992 Consensus, Su Chi admits the term didn’t exist until years later and there was never a formal text of agreement. On top of that, there was no explicit public mention of the consensus by China until 2008, after Ma Ying-jeou took office. And China is slippery with its wording – while it demands any politician or party conducting exchanges with the CPC supports the 1992 Consensus, it doesn’t explicitly state that the CPC also follows such a policy.
Instead of 1992 Consensus, I think it should be renamed Anti-Taiwan Independence Consensus because that’s basically what it means.[/quote]
Su chi was not even the main negotiator. The 92 Hong Kong conference’s main negotiator was Hsu Hui-yo (許惠祐) and he specifically says there was no consensus. The so called consensus was a non-consensus, because PRC insists one China is PRC and Taiwan insists one China is ROC. The actual consensus was that both sides will put aside the argument of who is the ONE, and focus on resolving practical issues. On top of that, PRC’s demands back then was mutual respect and both sides treat each other as equals. Back then China is just recovering from Tienanmeng massacre and still very poor, so it was more willing to treat Taiwan as equals.
Appeasing a bully and aggressor? I don’t think that makes sense - at best it delays the inevitable.
If Vietnam, the Philippines, Taiwan, Japan, and Korea got their act together they would form a defense alliance and economic cooperation network.
Those 5 countries would explicitly renounce all territorial ambitions (for Taiwan this would mean to change the constitution) and thus gain the moral support of many moderate countries in the world.
Faced with the explicit stance of this alliance to not attack anybody, China’s expansionists and hawks would lose steam and moderates in China would gain.
The timing is good right now, since there are signs that moderates in China are on the up.
[/quote]
[/quote]
[quote]
Such an alliance would be great but I’ve seen no indication the other countries have any interest in joining Taiwan in such an undertaking.[/quote]
I have seen no indication of an alternative to Ma’s mainland policies. 
But you asked a question, so why not take things beyond what we have not yet seen?
No. So what?
Anyway, if you kick people long enough they may band together today even if until yesterday they said they didn’t like each other.
I think it’s complex anywhere. But in any democratic society, you’re going to kick up a lot of dust if you name a road after a president or erase his name from another road. People don’t like names to be changed in the first place, and on top of that the mainstream perception of CKS has not yet caught up with the truths about his historic personage. Blues still respect him in spite of all the evidence that they shouldn’t, and so yanking the Zhongzheng carpet out from under their feet will just enrage them and make them feel like the DPP is being petty. Focusing on the names of things is a great way to stay in the past instead of looking for the future. Just wait for the people to decide they want the road name changed and then follow their will – otherwise you’re imposing your own on them.
Appeasing a bully and aggressor? I don’t think that makes sense - at best it delays the inevitable.
If Vietnam, the Philippines, Taiwan, Japan, and Korea got their act together they would form a defense alliance and economic cooperation network.
Those 5 countries would explicitly renounce all territorial ambitions (for Taiwan this would mean to change the constitution) and thus gain the moral support of many moderate countries in the world.
Faced with the explicit stance of this alliance to not attack anybody, China’s expansionists and hawks would lose steam and moderates in China would gain.
The timing is good right now, since there are signs that moderates in China are on the up.
[/quote]
[/quote]
[quote]
Such an alliance would be great but I’ve seen no indication the other countries have any interest in joining Taiwan in such an undertaking.[/quote]
I have seen no indication of an alternative to Ma’s mainland policies.
But you asked a question, so why not take things beyond what we have not yet seen?
No. So what?
Anyway, if you kick people long enough they may band together today even if until yesterday they said they didn’t like each other.[/quote]
Don’t get me wrong.I like the idea of such an alliance but the SE Asian countries don’t even seem willing to cooperate for the defense of islands they occupy.I was hoping maybe you had heard something I hadn’t.
Well, there are signs already that Vietnam and the Philippines are talking with each other. And the US might one day decide to put a bit more gentle pressure on its allies in Asia (Japan, Korea, and in the future also to some extent Vietnam and the Philippines) to resolve their petty squabbles and move, together with Taiwan, toward an alliance. If these countries don’t get their act together, and if China does not otherwise get sufficiently distracted from its course, they may in a few decades well be gone.