I’ve heard a lot about these “liumang”, but I would like to have a clearer picture about who these people are. Are they the same as “taike”? What makes them like this? How do they earn money? Do they usually have connections with Hei Dao or police? Do these people exist in China, too? Are there any equivalents in Western countries? Any info., or stories would be interesting to read…
What sparked my interest, mainly, was a run in on the street with this Betel Nut-chewing dude, his leopard-spot-wearing girlfriend, and his friend getting out of their 90’s Honda Civic; all because I waved my fist at him for trying to make a right-turn from the left lane (while my wife and I were on our scooter in the right lane, of course).
Oh, and also the latest news out of Taizhong, where six boys beat the stuffing out of one man who had the unfortunate luck of having cut these young punks off. The police officer who first confronted them was shown cautiously approaching them and was witness to a kick from one of the criminals. Also, a police sergeant was demoted by Taizhong’s mayor for treating these punks nicely (giving them tea, etc.) upon arrival at the station.
I know that there are these sort of people in Canada - who will try fighting someone just because of a stare - but they usually grow out of this before they reach their twenties. And, as my dad is from Jamaica, I also know that “respect” is something very valuable in that culture, and almost anything will be done to maintain their “respect” - even if it means being wanted for murder.
So, yes, any info. on these people would be appreciated!
As I understand it, the guy who was beat up by six dudes while cops watched in Taichung did cut them off, but he was being chased by them for nonpayment of a debt. The turning a blind eye to painful debt recollection by cops is what got that police chief demoted.
Or are we talking about a different 6-on-1 Mass Beatdown? Liumang and debt collectors are not precisely the same thing… but they hang out at the same bars, i bet.
"The beating occurred Sunday afternoon after the assailants spotted Hsieh’s car on Taichung streets. According to Chinese language newspapers, Hsieh had put up his car as collateral in applying for a loan from the bank that hired the six underground debt collectors.
Using two separate cars, Hsieh’s assailants tailgated his car and chased him all over the city until they cornered him at the intersection of Wenhsin Road and Rehe Road. The gang of six can be seen on the video footage dragging Hsieh out of the car and striking him repeatedly with wooden baseball bats and metal sticks.
According to the police, Hsieh, who has been previously arrested for possession of narcotics, said he thought he was being chased by undercover cops. The police later found bags of marijuana and another illegal substance in the back of Hsieh’s car."
So I don’t think it was just cutting them off in traffic, unless you’re talking about another incident.
Yup, that’s what i read on taiwan news, but couldnt find the link. Maybe he cut them off in the process of running from them, is my theory. But it’s not a man-looks-at-man, man-beats-man incident anyways.
[quote=“Rascal”]What banks here do hire thugs? That bank (if it’s a real bank) should have its license withdrawn.[/quote]The banks themselves do not hire thugs AFAIK. What they do is factor out overdue or ‘bad’ debt to third parties. So, you max out your cards, fail to make payments despite several notices from the bank. Then, without telling you, the bank sells your debt at a discount to a ‘finance company’. That’s where the thugs come in.
There was a big stink about this about a year ago, something was supposed to be done about it… Business as usual.
[quote]Then, without telling you, the bank sells your debt at a discount to a ‘finance company’. That’s where the thugs come in.
There was a big stink about this about a year ago, something was supposed to be done about it… Business as usual.[/quote]
That’s it exactly. The practice was well and truly “stamped out” by the authorities though – it was in the papers and on the news a lot last year and the policitians and everybody were saying so, so redwagon must be mistaken, I’m afraid – these must some OTHER bank-sub-contracted collection agency thugs we’re talking about, I’m sure.
Holy mackeral. I saw a brief glimpse of this on the TV news and had assumed that the guy had borrowed money from one of those 地下錢莊 or whatever they’re called. That’s seriously from one of the banks? Damn.
[quote=“redwagon”][quote=“Rascal”]What banks here do hire thugs? That bank (if it’s a real bank) should have its license withdrawn.[/quote]The banks themselves do not hire thugs AFAIK. What they do is factor out overdue or ‘bad’ debt to third parties. So, you max out your cards, fail to make payments despite several notices from the bank. Then, without telling you, the bank sells your debt at a discount to a ‘finance company’. That’s where the thugs come in.
There was a big stink about this about a year ago, something was supposed to be done about it… Business as usual.[/quote]
Bit of an interesting story here. Collection agencies were banned here until around the early 2000s. Sure they existed, but they were illegal, which meant that banks and other legitimate businesses couldn’t use them. Around the time Taiwan joined WTO, there was a lot of pressure from the foreign business community to liberalize the collections business. The cops and the Ministry of the Interior kept saying no, bad idea, but no one would listen to them. Sure enough, after it became legal, the bad guys got involved in a big way.
To the OP: Liuman is a confusing term. It can sometimes mean gangster. There was a Liumang Act that was used in the LTH era to pack mobsters off to Green Island whenever the government thought they were getting out of line. In this case, the Liumang were mob bosses.
But in ordinary life, liumang are just tough guys–working class guys who like to drink, fight, and drive dangerously. They are not the big bad gangsters that so many foreigners like to fantasize about all the time. Many liumang are pretty obsessed with their manhood and getting respect–kicking the shit out of foreigner is a great way to kills two birds with one stone. I would suggest that if you don’ mess with them, they won’t mess with you. Raising a fist at them though definitely counts as messing with them. Don’t do it unless you are ready and able to fight.
Taike are working class Taiwanese guys who speak Taiwanese, enjoy their betel nuts and Taiwanese beer, and are comfortable with being what they are. Rarely if ever violent unless in very large groups. Can be good mates, and often have great looking sisters who have or do work at betel nut stands.
Gangsters, usually referred to as xiongdi, are usually not encountered unless you gamble or owe someone lots of money. Can be very violent and are carrying so that they don’t just casually get in fights with people.
Thanks for the explanation, Feiren - it’s exactly what I was looking for. (And of course, thanks everyone else for the clarification of the debt business! Luckily, my debt is in Canada… but unluckily, I have debt.)
Yeah, it’s probably not a good idea to raise fists at anyone, anywhere; especially over a non-incident (we didn’t actually get run over). I am actually ready and willing to fight (a bad guy), but my wife is definitely not.
People keep telling me that humans with class avoid violent conflict and especially over minor issues. I keep thinking, though, that good people can’t let low-lifes and criminals trample upon them in everyday situations. If every good person stood up for themselves and each other in all circumstances, I’m sure that crimes against society would go down. (I guess this debate is sorta like the pro-gun/anti-gun debate in America).
[quote=“shawn_c”]Thanks for the explanation, Feiren - it’s exactly what I was looking for. (And of course, thanks everyone else for the clarification of the debt business! Luckily, my debt is in Canada… but unluckily, I have debt.)
Yeah, it’s probably not a good idea to raise fists at anyone, anywhere; especially over a non-incident (we didn’t actually get run over). I am actually ready and willing to fight (a bad guy), but my wife is definitely not.
People keep telling me that humans with class avoid violent conflict and especially over minor issues. I keep thinking, though, that good people can’t let low-lifes and criminals trample upon them in everyday situations. If every good person stood up for themselves and each other in all circumstances, I’m sure that crimes against society would go down. (I guess this debate is sorta like the pro-gun/anti-gun debate in America).[/quote]
the good news is that the Taiwanese low lifes generally, like other taiwanese, LOVE movies and generally think of white people to be like movie stars So , they often give you the benefit of the doubt and just so long as they think and continue to think that you are ‘humourous’ , they wont harm you.
Once you make their smile go away tho??? LOOK out !! Just think of BRUCE the Shark in Finding Nemo. MOst of the baddies in TAiwan are NOT out to get you. Just dont give them a reason. Keep the sharks friendly i say !! See, what the taiwanese do with people when they really have a real issue with someone, they go and find one of their buds who is a gangster (and they dont have to look far as one quarter of all taiwanese are related in some way to gangster activity) and talk to them and the bud finds out whos backing the thugs who are harashing you and they work out things themselves. YOU however , dont have this background to call upon. Example: one of my taiwanese buds opened up a nice western restaurant, and some of the local thugs came around wanting protection money. So he simply called up his uncle who called up someone else who called up someone else and talked to someone in the Bamboo Union who then called up the local minor gang working that area and PRESTO. next thing you know, the thugs are coming by with gifts and “pai says” and offering to ‘watch out for the baddies for free’ (easy to do since they are the only baddies on that street).
just keep them laughing and everything is cool . NO need to get into brushes with people, doesnt change or prove anything.
Liumang is usually translated as ‘Hoodlum’. As Feiren said, there is a particular law dealing with ‘hoodlums’. In three major crackdowns they were rounded up and sent off to Green Island. Not just the bosses but loads of toughs who were often only peripherally associated with gangs. One of the results of this was the organisation of many small, previously unorganised, ‘jiaotou’ ‘street-corner’ local Taiwanese gangs into the ‘Celestial Alliance’, making a force to compete with the organised, Taipei-based, mainlander gangs like Bamboo Union and Four Seas.
For some really interesting authorative information on Taiwanese gangs, try reading ‘Heijin’ by Ko-Lin Chin (if you can find it).
