What Slobby Done: Milosevic is dead thread

[quote=“Comrade Stalin”][quote=“jdsmith”]
Man may all be created equal, but countries aren’t. If those countries HAD a good enough court system, they would need the Hague, would they? But then again, if they had a good enough court system, maybe their governments wouldn’t be so fucked up to NEED the ICC.[/quote]

People get the government they deserve. I have yet to hear a convincing reason for the ICC. Other than it makes the Europeans feel less impotent. :laughing:[/quote]

Well, I can’t go that far. Governments are sometimes much much smarter than the sheeple they control. There’s a reason fascist leaders keep the sheeple ignorant. And really, human nature doesn’t always respond the same way in different places and within different cultures: Germs, Guns and Steel, brother.

As for the ICC. They have no way of even getting customers. They sit and wait for others to bring them the badguys, and rely on others to incarcerate them when found guilty. It’s a completely subsidized court, and it’s above politics and corruption and favoritism? :unamused: Please. The ICC instills in me the same great confidence the UN does.

If the ICC is even remotely as crappy as Slobby himself made it look, then IMHO, the world is better off without this “Courts above all courts.”

Under those definitions, a person could be arrested by the ICC for almost anything, and thats the problem. Who defines,someone like an ayotallah in Iran, where you can be arrested for any slight against the prophet???

[quote=“Comrade Stalin”][quote=“jdsmith”]
Man may all be created equal, but countries aren’t. If those countries HAD a good enough court system, they would need the Hague, would they? But then again, if they had a good enough court system, maybe their governments wouldn’t be so fucked up to NEED the ICC.[/quote]

People get the government they deserve. I have yet to hear a convincing reason for the ICC. Other than it makes the Europeans feel less impotent. :laughing:[/quote]

One reason is Slobodan Milosevic would never have been arrested and brought to trial for his crimes, like Pol Pot.

Another reason is that 174,000,000 people died in mass murders and genocide in the 20th century and most of the people who perpetrated those mass murders were never brought to justice because one nation alone rarely has the will or the ability to bring them to justice.

Another reason is if the ICC had the support of the U.S., Russia and China, it might stop the current genocide in Darfur which continues despite the fact that the news media and public have lost interest in it:

“The International Criminal Court (ICC) opened an investigation into the crimes in Darfur in June 2005. The ICC has the mandate to investigate those individuals responsible for crimes against humanity, war crimes and genocide since July 2002 in accordance with the Rome Statute. The Prosecutor is currently conducting investigations from outside Darfur. To date the Prosecutor has not had access to Darfur to conduct investigations. The Sudanese government has publicly indicated it will not cooperate with the ICC and insists that it will try criminals in Darfur itself, in a Special Court. However, there is no indication that the Sudanese justice system is seriously investigating or prosecuting any of the government officials, militia leaders, or other individuals responsible for serious crimes in Darfur.”

Spook, aren’t opponents still going to think that the accussed was taken out of his or her own country and tried in a foreign land? You seem to be very much against this is other circumstances.

[quote=“spook”]
One reason is Slobodan Milosevic would never have been arrested and brought to trial for his crimes, like Pol Pot.[/quote]

Milosevic was simply the victim of German machinations and the Western media’s penchant for rooting for the supposed underdog. He tried to keep his country together even though the Germans (and their WWII Axis partners) were doing everything they could to break it up in the late 80s early 90s. Isn’t it interesting that Germany’s WWII allies Croatia and Bosnia were the supposed “good guys” in the Balkans while Serbia, the ony European country in WWII to kick Nazi ass, was the bad guy.

[quote]The forces eager to see the break-up of Yugoslavia through independence for Slovenia and Croatia were the Vatican, Austria, Hungary, Germany and, more ambivalently, Italy. Since the mid-1980s, the Vatican and Austria had started an active campaign in East Central and Eastern Europe to rebuild their influence there and by 1989-90 the Vatican was openly championing independence for Slovenia and Croatia. By 1990 Austria’s government was equally open. In the words of a study by the International Institute for Strategic Studies, Austria had “a remarkably open and sometimes brazen policy aimed at helping Slovenia and Croatia in their efforts to leave the [Yugoslav] Federation.”(7) The Austrian media denounced what they called ‘Panzer Communism’ in Yugoslavia and ‘primitive Serbs’ while the Austrian government went so far as to include the Slovenian Minister for External Affairs, Dmitri Rupel, in Austria’s own delegation to a CSCE meeting in Berlin. Although Austria presented its drive for Slovenian and Croatian independence in terms of ‘democracy’ and the ‘democratic rights’ of the Slovenians and Croatians, such concerns were hardly uppermost in the Austrian state, given the fact that for decades Austria had, according to Zemetica,
been striving to assimilate the Slovene minority in the Klagenfurt Basin and the Croats in Burgenland" and "had been flagrantly and consistently brushing aside its obligations towards minorities under the 1955 State Treaty.(8)[/quote]

labourfocus.gn.apc.org/Twisted.html

ce-review.org/00/26/deckers26.html

workers.org/ww/1997/bosnia0724.html

And ethnic cleansing? Hell, it was the Muslims who started that. I suggest you read up on Nasir Oric.

Bill Schiller, The Toronto Star, 16 July 1995:

[quote]On a cold and snowy night, I sat in his room, watching a shocking video version of what might have been called Naser Oric

Did a considerable study on the media coverage of the Balkans war at the time and that was also my finding. The Serbs did cop an incredible media battering, some of it deserved but mostly not.

Also read a great economic assessment of why the war started. Although hazy on details and the author, the upshot was that the Federal State fo Yugoslavia had borrowed heavily in the seventies and as things went belly up financially in the late eighties, the various individual states were eager to distance themselves from this debt. The Serbs were going to wear it regardless.

HG

The Balkans are much like the Middle East. Ancient sectarian divides being fought with modern weapons. Everyone’s hands dirty. Everyone convinced they’re on a divine mission which gives them license to do things which would be atrocities if committed by the other side. Everyone convinced they’re the innocent victims.

The big difference is the U.S. did a credible job of not taking sides in the Balkan conflict which may have made all the difference there.

[quote=“spook”]
The big difference is the U.S. did a credible job of not taking sides in the Balkan conflict which may have made all the difference there.[/quote]

:roflmao:

Yeah! Tell that to the Serbs. The US (and the IMF) destroyed the economy of Yugoslavia in the 1980’s. We allow the Germans and their puppets to bring about the breakup of the country then we bomb the fuck out of’em while allowing the Albanians to ethnically cleanse Kosovo. (Thousands of Serbians have been murdered in Kosovo while the UN “peacekeepers” standby doing nothing.)

kosovo.com/hrabuses.html#lists

Please. More. You’re breaking me up.

[quote=“Comrade Stalin”][quote=“spook”]
The big difference is the U.S. did a credible job of not taking sides in the Balkan conflict which may have made all the difference there.[/quote]

:roflmao:

Yeah! Tell that to the Serbs. The US (and the IMF) destroyed the economy of Yugoslavia in the 1980’s. We allow the Germans and their puppets to bring about the breakup of the country then we bomb the fuck out of’em while allowing the Albanians to ethnically cleanse Kosovo. (Thousands of Serbians have been murdered in Kosovo while the UN “peacekeepers” standby doing nothing.)

Kosovo.com/hrabuses.html#lists

Please. More. You’re breaking me up.[/quote]

So whose side were we on and why? I could use some light entertainment myself. Why should you have all the fun?

“We” were on our own side making sure we don’t have any competition. Distraction’s a bitch.

No no no Comrade, you just don’t get it. Muslims are always the innocent victims, persecuted by the crusading Christians and those damned Jews. Come on, every head up his ass, knee jerk liberal worth his weight in bottled water knows that!

Oh wait, I forgot, you live in the real world like me. The media’s coverage of the conflict was overwhelming anti-Serb, and Oric’s atrocities in the Srebrenica and the villages were hardly mentioned. In his indictment he was accused of killing 7 men…the number was exponentially higher.

[quote=“MikeN”]Yep, another of those evil followers of that vicious murderous religion…

Oh, that’s right- the worst atrocity in Europe since WWII was committed by Christians against Muslims.

Now wait for it- “No, they weren’t really Christians in spite of ostentatiously wearing crosses and claiming to be defending Christendom against the vile Turk, because Christians don’t do those kinds of things, whereas when a Muslim does it, it just shows how warped Islam really is.”[/quote]

Whose opinions are these, MikeN? Yours?

No no no Comrade, you just don’t get it. Muslims are always the innocent victims, persecuted by the crusading Christians and those damned Jews. Come on, every head up his ass, knee jerk liberal worth his weight in bottled water knows that!

Oh wait, I forgot, you live in the real world like me. The media’s coverage of the conflict was overwhelming anti-Serb, and Oric’s atrocities in the Srebrenica and the villages were hardly mentioned. In his indictment he was accused of killing 7 men…the number was exponentially higher.[/quote]

“You guys” get hysterical so easily these days. It must be the ‘end of empire’ syndrome which is understandable given that the fourth reich will go down as the shortest in history.

The facts are the Muslims in the Balkans began the ethnic cleansing and atrocities and the Serbs responded in kind, taking it to a higher level in the end because of superior firepower. It wasn’t special effects when Serb snipers in the hills above Sarajevo were shown month after month shooting innocent civilians cowering on the streets as they tried to go about their daily business.

Nobody’s hands are clean in the Balkans and nobody except the innocent civilians on both sides deserve our support.

I agree completely.

Oh joy, more ludicrous analogies from spook. Would you care to explain to us how the Bush Administration is comparable to Nazi Germany?

The ICC was not trying Milosovic. He was being tried by a totally different organization, the ICTY. Milosovic certainly was critical of the ICTY, but he didn’t have much reason to attack the ICC.

[quote]The International Tribunal for the Prosecution of Persons Responsible for Serious Violations of International Humanitarian Law Committed in the Territory of the Former Yugoslavia since 1991, more commonly referred to as the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY), is a body of the United Nations (UN) established to prosecute war crimes in the former Yugoslavia. The tribunal functions as an ad-hoc court and is located in The Hague.

It was established by Resolution 827 of the UN Security Council, which was passed on May 25, 1993. It has jurisdiction over certain types of crime committed on the territory of the former Yugoslavia since 1991: grave breaches of the 1949 Geneva Conventions, violations of the laws or customs of war, genocide, and crime against humanity. It can try only individuals, not organizations or governments. The maximum sentence it can impose is life imprisonment. Various countries have signed agreements with the UN to carry out custodial sentences. The last indictment was issued March 15, 2004. It aims to complete all trials by the end of 2008 and all appeals by 2010.
Wikipedia
[/quote]

[quote]The International Criminal Court (ICC) was established in 2002 as a permanent tribunal to prosecute individuals for genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes, as defined by several international agreements, most prominently the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. The ICC is designed to complement existing national judicial systems, however, the Court can exercise its jurisdiction if national courts are unwilling or unable to investigate or prosecute such crimes, thus being a “court of last resort,” leaving the primary responsibility to exercise jurisdiction over alleged criminals to individual states.
wikipedia
[/quote]

apples
oranges
kiwis

Oh joy, more ludicrous analogies from spook. Would you care to explain to us how the Bush Administration is comparable to Nazi Germany?[/quote]

I was thinking more in terms of the First Reich, the Holy Roman Empire centered on the European superpower of the time likewise on a mission from god to extend christian righteousness over the heathen hordes – or else.

The messianic complex propelling the Project for a New American Century didn’t spring from the American psyche without historical antecedents of some sort.

[quote=“Comrade Stalin”][quote=“spook”]
One reason is Slobodan Milosevic would never have been arrested and brought to trial for his crimes, like Pol Pot.[/quote]

Milosevic was simply the victim of German machinations and the Western media’s penchant for rooting for the supposed underdog. He tried to keep his country together even though the Germans (and their WWII Axis partners) were doing everything they could to break it up in the late 80s early 90s. Isn’t it interesting that Germany’s WWII allies Croatia and Bosnia were the supposed “good guys” in the Balkans while Serbia, the ony European country in WWII to kick Nazi ass, was the bad guy.

labourfocus.gn.apc.org/Twisted.html

ce-review.org/00/26/deckers26.html

workers.org/ww/1997/bosnia0724.html

[/quote]

[quote]BEHIND BREAK-UP OF YUGOSLAVIA

Who is really responsible for what is going on in Bosnia?

The imperialist powers of Europe and the United States. They instigated the war in the first place.

Germany and France each played a big role. Germany openly encouraged the breakup of socialist Yugoslavia and aided the separation of Croatia and Slovenia from Yugoslavia. France moved its troops into Bosnia soon after.

This was followed by a U.S.-imposed NATO occupation force that is meant to enforce the break-up of Yugoslavia.

The Croatian army that massacred thousands in the Krajina was set up, trained and run by U.S. military officers. This has been repeatedly reported in the European media. It has rarely been mentioned in the U.S. media, except Workers World.

The Nation magazine–which has mostly supported the U.S. State Department’s views on the Balkans and the war crimes tribunal–carried a report in its July 28-Aug. 4 issue titled “Privatizing War.” The story gives some details of the U.S. military’s involvement in the Krajina massacre.

None of the U.S. officers has been indicted by the Hague tribunal.[/quote]

So, CS, you agree with the Workers’ World that the break-up of Yugoslavia was the result of US Imperialism? Do you agree that US soldiers are war criminals for their involvement in the Krajina massacres?

And I assume you agree with this from the labourfocus article:

And of course you would agree that the Bush Administration deliberately orchestrated the war to push back against the German threat to American leadership in NATO?

[quote]But just as Germany’s various declared universalist norms and goals were in the service of not of the Yugoslav people but of German political influence, so the United States was not, of course, entering the Yugoslav theatre to calm the storms of war and provide new security for Yugoslavia’s terrified peoples. Quite the reverse. The Bush administration was entering the scene to push Germany and the European Union aside but it was going to do so by laying the basis for a new and much more savage Yugoslav war.
Washington’s chosen instrument for taking the lead was that of encouraging the Bosnian government to go for independence and therefore for a Bosnian war. Bosnian independence was opposed by the German government and the EC. They aimed to try to hold the rest of Yugoslavia together. The US administration decided to put a stop to that by launching a drive for Bosnian independence which got underway in January 1992 just as the EC was following Germany’s lead in recognising Croatia and Slovenia.
Germany had turned the internal Yugoslav crisis into its own problem definition: Europe must defend independent Croatia against Serbian/Yugoslav aggression. Now Washington would provide a new problem definition: Europe and the world must defend an Independent Bosnia against Serbian/Yugoslav aggression and, perhaps, if tactically useful, against Croatian aggression as well. Thus did the US enunciate the great norm that would eventually provide it with European leadership: self-determination for the Bosnian nation and defence of its independence against aggression.[/quote]

What is it about Milosevic that draws the extremists of Left and Right together?

(Easy answer, of course- the Left-wing wackos like him because he defied the Evil Western Imperialists; the Right like him because he slaughtered Muslims.)

And he was taken to court for it. In that terrible secular Dutch state.

Your main gripe is that he is not celebrated as a martyr?

Yep, how unfair.[/quote]
Wow. MikeN, you just got “owned.” Big time.[/quote]

Only if -like CS- you completely missed the point.

[quote=“MikeN”]What is it about Milosevic that draws the extremists of Left and Right together?

(Easy answer, of course- the Left-wing wackos like him because he defied the Evil Western Imperialists; the Right like him because he slaughtered Muslims.)[/quote]

It’s amusing how you try and posit yourself as a moderate. If you honestly believe that conservatives like Milosevic, then that in and of itself proves that you’re completely delusional. But to believe that conservatives like him because he slaughtered Muslims places you into the most extreme leftist, looney conspiracy theory camp out there. No conservatives in the West who actually hold any political power or social influence whatsoever are advocating slaughtering Muslims. Do we want to restrict the immigration of a people whose religion demands they take over the world by any means necessary? You betcha. You obviously don’t agree with that, but to assert that conservatives celebrate the slaughter of Muslims is completely ludicrous and insulting. However, if that’s the kind of thing you believe, then so be it. Just do us all a favor and quit pretending you’re riding the golden median, and take your rightful place on the looney left.