What to do about North Korea?

Politics International Politics
21

Oh shit, in a moment of drunken weakness I actually posted on one of these Iraq war threads.

[quote]the fact that you would get annoyed that i bring this up is odd. you want us to deal with north korea first, so i asked for suggestions on what we should do.
[/quote]

No, my point is that the US is saying “Iraq is doing x, y, an z, that’s why we want to invade them - honest”, whereas N Korea, is doing x+, y+ and Z+, but the US is not invading them, which strongly suggests that the reasons the US is invading Iraq is not X, Y and Z at all, but something else (perhaps e, m, and o).

Brian

22

And now you can’t get out of the argument, yeah? Funny how quickly it gets you like that.

Logically, of course, you are right. But its not the only possible explanation.

Another possibility might be that the US is forced into different tactics because it has a reasonable suspicion that N. Korea already has nuclear weapons which are capable of hitting the United States. Attacking Iraq might be, in part, an attempt to prevent Saddam getting to the same position as Kim Jong Il.

23

[quote=“Sir Donald Bradman”]
No, my point is that the US is saying “Iraq is doing x, y, an z, that’s why we want to invade them - honest”, whereas N Korea, is doing x+, y+ and Z+, but the US is not invading them, which strongly suggests that the reasons the US is invading Iraq is not X, Y and Z at all, but something else (perhaps e, m, and o).

Brian[/quote]

North Korea, Iraq, Cuba, Iran, Zimbabwe, etc, etc are NOT America’s slightly wayward children somehow deserving of equal punishment or reward. They are ENEMIES and therefore should be dealt with accordingly.

Out of curiosity, I wonder how many people posting here have ever served any time in the military…a real military, that is. Not something like the Royal Liechtenstein Tiger Kommandos or the camouflaged ragbag mama’s boys we see on the streets of Taiwan.

24

North Korea, Iraq, Cuba, Iran, Zimbabwe, etc, etc are not enemies. They are countries. If you consider their citizens to be your enemies, that is your business, but don’t speak for me. I have no enemies.

25

I think you just made one :wink:

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[quote=“Sir Donald Bradman”]
No, my point is that the US is saying “Iraq is doing x, y, an z, that’s why we want to invade them - honest”, whereas N Korea, is doing x+, y+ and Z+, but the US is not invading them, which strongly suggests that the reasons the US is invading Iraq is not X, Y and Z at all, but something else (perhaps e, m, and o).

Brian[/quote]

well, shouldn’t a major consideration(let’s say “y”) be if an invasion would remedy the problem? assuming “x” and “z” remain the same(madman dictator with wmd), then “y” is the determining factor. obviously the bush administration believes an invasion WOULD solve problem #1, but would not necessarily solve problem #2.

the reason we will invade iraq is because we believe that an invasion will somehow remedy the problem. i’m not asking you to agree that it will, in fact, resolve the problem, but just trying to lay out that it’s not hypocrisy in these 2 cases as much as a differing evaluations of the effects of an invasion.

for example, let’s take sanctions. sanctions worked in south africa, but there is widespread belief that it didn’t work in iraq. would lifting sanctions on iraq have been hypocritical considering they were not lifted on south africa(an altogether more benign government) until we achieved regime change? the effects of the action should always be a part of the equation. i think that’s just common sense.

trust me, there are a lot of hawks who WANT to invade north korea. that bush is taking a more cautious stance is probably a good thing in this case.

27

I consider most of their “citizens” to be poor brainwashed slaves. I sugest you take your next visa run to South Korea and go up to the DMZ for a look across at the other side.

english.tour2korea.com/sightseei … tc/dmz.asp
cincinnati.com/travel/stories/dmz.html
koryogroup.com/KTtraveltips.htm

But be careful! Although you might think the North Koreans are your bosom buddies, they don’t seem to have the same opinion. Hopefully you’ll come out better than these guys did:

koreascope.org/english/sub/2/nk10_4.htm
koreascope.org/english/sub/2 … 10e-2m.jpg

But Hey! Let’s not let reality get in the way, right?
:unamused:

28

Two US soldiers killed by North Korean soldiers in 1976? Whoopee doo. What about the two Korean girls killed by US soldiers last year? Or hundreds of Korean civilians machine gunned to death by US soldiers as the victims cowered in fear under the bridge at Nogun-ri?

koreanwar-educator.org/toc/n … IGINAL.htm

I’m not sure what your point is, but I don’t think painting all inhabitants of various countries as our enemies and setting out to destroy them is in the best interests of humanity. If people are brainwashed, all the more reason to reach out to them in love and compassion rather than seeking to annihilate them.

29

Sorry, I just had to go puke. Once again you show your true self. So the American soldiers who were murdered mean nothing to you, eh? And in case you didn’t know, the girls were killed in a TRAFFIC ACCIDENT. Is that SOOOOOOOO difficult for you to understand? And the incident at Nogun-ri is being investigated, right? Study alittle bit more about the Korean War, or better yet, why don’t you enlist and volunteer for the Infantry? Go to Afghanistan and…awww forget it. You’ll never learn and you always be able to spout your idiotic “opinions” because better men and women than yourself are defending you.

BTW, I guess you forgot about:

onwar.com/aced/data/kilo/korea1983.htm
nis.go.kr/eng/activity/terror02.html
koreascope.org/english/sub/2/nk10_7.htm

WTF are you talking about? :shock: :unamused: Who said anything about annihilating anyone? If the US wanted to do that, we wouldn’t need several hundred thousand troops anywhere in the world. One Ohio class SSBN submarine armed with MIRV’s could take care of the entire Middle East in less than 30 minutes.

BTW, thanks for the link. Too bad you didn’t read or quote the homepage:

koreanwar-educator.org/

“This website is dedicated with appreciation and remembrance to the thousands of American veterans who served and fought in war-torn Korea in 1950-1953 and beyond. It is humbling to realize that they unselfishly gave up their yesterdays and tomorrows so that those of us enjoying freedom in the United States can have our todays. This website also acknowledges the sacrifices of Korean War veterans from other nations who participated in Allied efforts to free South Korea from communist aggression.”

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I do feel badly about the 2 US soldiers who died. But I feel no less badly about the wedding party that was bombed in Afghanistan or the Iraqi children who die every day from economic sanctions.

You fail in your attempt to portray N Koreans as particularly evil by linking articles on 2 N Koreans who allegedly tried to assasinate the president of S Korea or 2 N Koreans who allegedly blew up an airplane. How many boys did Jeffrey Dahmer eat? Does that make all americans cannibals? Hardly.

Moreover, the US government has been actively involved in countless assasination attempts. While the recent remote control missile in Yemen is notable, the following link mentions another 2 dozen or so US government assasination attempts.

members.aol.com/bblum6/assass.htm

As for atrocities committed by soldiers, let’s take a look at Vietnam. Of course we all know of My Lai, where 300 unarmed civilians were killed by US troops.

pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/tr … mylai.html

In another incident, Bronze Star recipient Senator John Kerry admitted that his unit of Navy Seals killed at least 13 women and children during indiscriminate nighttime shooting.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1298289.stm

What did Senator Kerry learn from the incident: “I thought dying for your country was the worst thing that could happen to you - I think killing for your country can be a lot worse.”

That’s why it bothers me to hear statements like your: “North Korea, Iraq, Cuba, Iran, Zimbabwe, etc, etc are NOT America’s slightly wayward children somehow deserving of equal punishment or reward. They are ENEMIES and therefore should be dealt with accordingly.”

While I respect the great courage and good intentions of those who risk their lives in support of what they perceive as worthy causes, I wish people would try harder to understand and empathize with those who are different, and I wish more people would learn vicariously from Senator Kerry.

31

MT, what’s there to say? You seem to mistake an aberration, a massacre of civilians by American troops while in combat in a guerrilla war, with a deliberate government policy. Example, the deliberate mass murder of low-level governemnt officers, school teachers, postal workers, firemen, etc by the North Vietnamese in Hue during the 1968 Tet Offensive.

saigon.com/regions/hue/
vietquoc.com/0002vq.htm
vc-crimes.virtualave.net/tacs-pg10.htm

I think war criminals regardless of nationality should be punished. You seem to believe only Americans are the perpetrators. For you to compare an American soldier’s actions in combat with Jeffrey Dahmer shows what an ignorant and contemptible person you truly are.

BTW, I spent 14 months in the Republic of South Vietnam. Where did you gain all of your military knowledge and insight??? I would have loved to have had you in my squad.

:smiling_imp: :smiling_imp: :smiling_imp:

32

well said, blueface. also, from what i have heard the incident in korea was precipitated by the fact that the north koreans were infiltrating fighters in among refuges heading south. that kind of thing is a no win situation for anybody.

sdb, there are major differences between iraq and nk. nk may be as much of an insane dictatorship as iraq but since the end of the war they have been content to stay put where they are. as in all likelihood that situation will not change in absence of some major change in the situation, it would not seem to be one requiring major and drastic action. saddam is much scarier if you examine his whole history. the only us interest is getting rid of him. whatever e m and o are i’d be interested in hearing how they figured in. in addition china must be considered as a MAJOR factor in any such calculation. they are two completely different situations and i think comparisons of the type I hear being made are disingenuous, if the us were to start making warlike noises towards nk the shitstorm that would be kicked up would make the recent going ons at the un and demonstrations look like a garden party.

33

Blueface,

Massacres of civilians in war is not an aberration, it’s routine, although it’s usually referred to euphemistically as “collateral damage.”

Before you call people ignorant and contemptible, try listening to what they say. I never compared US soldiers to Jeffrey Dahmer. By links to 2 Koreans here and 2 Koreans there, you were suggesting that all N Koreans are evil and untrustworthy (“Be careful! Although you might think the North Koreans are your bosom buddies, they don’t seem to have the same opinion.”) I only mentioned JD by analogy, to point out that while some americans are barbaric, all are not. The same goes for N Koreans, Iraquis, Libyans, etc.

I don’t claim to be an expert on military affairs, but I do know that any “enemy country” is filled with kind, loving human beings who just happened to be born in a different country from you and me. So it bothers me when an entire populace is painted as evil, or enemies, or other ignorant simplifications that only lead to more trouble in this sorry world.

34

Lots of news about N.Korea and the US in recent months as you no doubt noticed.
My question is, why does US seem so reluctant to engage in bilateral talks with N.Korea? What rationale for this? What would they gain or lose from bilateral talks cf. to multilateral talks. Not sure I understand the hidden motives. Is it just to avoid giving N.Korea that “diplomatic victory” or is US holding out so as to make N.Korea come ‘begging’ on the US terms? or as usually the case, a host of different factors involved?

Most of the articles I have read really skip over the issue of why the US resists bilateral talks. Not sure why.

35

[quote=“jackburton”]Lots of news about N.Korea and the US in recent months as you no doubt noticed.
My question is, why does US seem so reluctant to engage in bilateral talks with N.Korea? What rationale for this? What would they gain or lose from bilateral talks cf. to multilateral talks. Not sure I understand the hidden motives. Is it just to avoid giving N.Korea that “diplomatic victory” or is US holding out so as to make N.Korea come ‘begging’ on the US terms? or as usually the case, a host of different factors involved?

Most of the articles I have read really skip over the issue of why the US resists bilateral talks. Not sure why.[/quote]

You should be asking why the Communists refuse to engage in talks with the South Koreans.

36

Why don’t you explain the significance behind this? Because I thought N.Korea does have high-level negotiations with S.Korea.
At any rate, I am not sure how this also explains my question on US-N.Korea bilateral talks. Btw, nice little flame war you have going on in that other post. :wink:

37

The Communists refuse to have any contact with South Korea in any type of international (multilateral) context. Doing so would give the South legitimacy. The Communists claim South Korea is a puppet state controlled by the United States and all negotiations should therefore be held only between Washington and Pyongyang.

Thanks guy! BTW, here’s a nice quote for you:

“If we’re not back by dawn, call the President”. - Jack Burton, “Big Trouble in Little China”

wingkong.net/sounds/jack/prez.wav

38

[quote=“jackburton”]My question is, why does US seem so reluctant to engage in bilateral talks with N.Korea? What rationale for this? What would they gain or lose from bilateral talks cf. to multilateral talks. Not sure I understand the hidden motives. Is it just to avoid giving N.Korea that “diplomatic victory” or is US holding out so as to make N.Korea come ‘begging’ on the US terms? or as usually the case, a host of different factors involved?

Most of the articles I have read really skip over the issue of why the US resists bilateral talks. Not sure why.[/quote]

There are no hidden motives. The US views the situation with NK as one of regional concern, i.e., a matter that should concern China, Russia, Japan and South Korea, as well as the US. Bilateral talks between the US and NK have little chance of success, as the two sides are currently too hostile towards each other and the US distrusts NK due to NK’s secret violation of the Clinton-Carter negotiated agreement back in the 90s. In any event, the only real hope of achieving a satisfactory result, i.e., NK backing down and opening up to the outside world and easing up on human rights violations, is for China to be involved in talks.

China is NK’s biggest supporter and probably the only nation that can influence the NK regime in a peaceful way (via suggestions rather than force). This, China has been reluctant to do, as China would love to see the US presence and influence in Asia lessened. However, China does not want a nuke possessing nutcase on its border and neither does Japan want NK to go nuke. But Japan has far less influence on NK than does China… and China can exert that influence by threatening food aid and oil cutoffs (stick) or with more food and oil (carrot).

Nothing hidden about the US reluctance to engage NK alone. The world usually screams at the US if it appears to be moving unilaterally… but here, when others are reluctant to get involved, we see again calls for the US to engage… even if it has to go it alone… :?

39

And here’s alittle North Korean news:

cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/a … index.html

Navy storms N. Korea ‘heroin ship’

SYDNEY, Australia (AP) --A court refused bail Monday to 30 North Koreans arrested when the Australian navy stormed a ship allegedly involved in trafficking almost $50 million worth of heroin.

The cargo ship, Pong Su, was intercepted Sunday by a navy warship after it refused police orders to stop off Australia’s south coast. Troops boarded the ship using a helicopter and boarding vessels.

Police suspect the ship transported 50 kilograms (110 pounds) of heroin seized in the southeastern town of Lorne last week. Three men, from Malaysia and Singapore, were arrested last Wednesday and charged with importing heroin taken from the ship.

The body of another man was found on a beach after he apparently drowned while bringing drugs ashore.

40

I read recently that N.Korea has agreed to hold talks with S.Korea (and has many different-level talks in the past [unofficially?]). Doesn’t this change the situation you speak of?

by the way, love that movie! Lords of Death! check out the scenes they cut out. very funny. plus Carpenter’s 80s music video. dreadful but funny

Lo Pan:
Shut up Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this earth to get it!

Jack Burton:
2000 years and he can’t find a single girl to fit the bill,… must be doing something wrong.