It really bothers me when foreigners here will use awful pinyin to describe places, etc. to other foreigners. For example, I live in ’ T a a n District near to K u t i n g Station on J h o n g j h e n g Rd’, or ‘We can meet in K u n g k w a n’.
Nobody knows what that says.
None of us know how to do this bopomofo crap, so why can’t we at least just use the same pinyin? Living in Taipei County for quite a while, I’ve learned how to read this messed up garbage pinyin, but I don’t think most of the foreigners that come here to Shida or fobs that have limited Chinese benefit from other foreigners just confusing them.
Now that Taiwan officially uses Hanyu Pinyin, there is absolutely no reason to use any other one. Any political argument is now gone. The ‘T a a n’ and ‘K u n g k w a n’ aren’t even Tongyong pinyin! Maybe Hanyu Pinyin isn’t the most clear system for people who don’t know what their doing at all, but I’m 100% positive it distinguishes K and G, and T and D sounds.
Am I the only person that this bothers?
Follow-up: at least Forumosa tries to fix that garbage, hence the spaces. THANK YOU
It’s not that they insist on using crappy spelling, they just don’t know it. If they knew pinyin, I’m quite sure they would insist on using not-pinyin.
I completely understand what OP is saying here, but to continue in the vein of what El Chief was saying, how can anyone expect consistency when there is no consensus among local usage? Street signs, maps, bus schedules, and public areas are expressed in a wild variety (OK, not wild, but there is variance) of Pinyin. Not that anyone cares what I think but it doesn’t matter if they (meaning anybody on the island) decided to spell Danshui (Tamsui) with three Ks and a zipper.
Now, I heard (which doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true) that the Ma administration is hell-bent on getting Taiwan back on the bopomofo track. i.e. standardized public Plonkyin. We’ll see about that.
Hanyu Pinyin is the international standard. And since January 2009 it has been the standard of Taiwan’s government (with a few notable exceptions: namely, the names of major cities like Taipei, Kaohsiung, Hsinchu, Keelung, etc.).
I adhere to the “HYPY except major cities” principle. I also make exceptions for private businesses that have chosen their own spellings, and people’s names.
What I don’t like is when people say something like “The way to say ‘Excuse me, would you please get out of the way’ in Mandarin is ‘cheeh gau’.” No, it’s “jie guo”.
When we use it, we get shot down[/quote]
I get number one - people insist on using crappy pinyin when they are writing addresses to other foreigners because they are too lazy. But why would people inisist on using crappy pinyin when they are writing addresses to other foreigners because they don’t use crappy pinyin in their daily lives? And why would they insist on using crappy pinyin when writing to foreigners if they know they’re going to “get shot down”. It doesn’t make sense to me.
[quote=“mike029”]It really bothers me when foreigners here will use awful pinyin to describe places, etc. to other foreigners. For example, I live in ’ T a a n District near to K u t i n g Station on J h o n g j h e n g Rd’, or ‘We can meet in K u n g k w a n’.
Nobody knows what that says.[/quote]
I do. :shrug:
I do. :shrug:
Now that Taiwan officially uses Hanyu Pinyin, there is absolutely no reason to use any other one. Any political argument is now gone.
[quote]Wrong! it is still very much a political argument. My company, for example, is very much beholden to the government for funding, etc., yet it still uses a DPP-era tourism freebie map of Taiwan to authenticate placename spellings. The government doesn’t appear to care, and any arguments put forth by the copyeditors don’t carry any weight whatsoever. “You got a problem? Take it up with Sindian City Hall.” Never mind that even that particular city – sorry, DISTRICT – hall no longer uses “Sindian” but has changed to “Xindian” falls on deaf ears. Nobody gives a shit, basically. Its just a daft furriner thang.
Nope. Tons of furriners hate it. I have plenty other things to vent my spleen on, however. Spelling 'aint one of them. Just last week I ordered a bike from Kaohsiung. My address for the HTC courier had both Sindian and Xindian and possibly also Xintien in it. It arrived the next day. Suits me just fine.
Storm in a chacup if you ask me.
[quote=“sandman”][quote=“mike029”]It really bothers me when foreigners here will use awful pinyin to describe places, etc. to other foreigners. For example, I live in ’ T a a n District near to K u t i n g Station on J h o n g j h e n g Rd’, or ‘We can meet in K u n g k w a n’.
Nobody knows what that says.[/quote]
I do. [/quote]
Only with names that you have some experience with. You would NOT be able to closely approximate a class list of students if the names were all written in “crappy pinyin” - that is pinyin that doesn’t conform to any discernible standard. I’m not sure you’d be able to do it even if weren’t “crappy pinyin” and it DID conform to other discernible standards. I’d wager a beer on the outcome.
[quote=“maoman”][quote=“sandman”][quote=“mike029”]It really bothers me when foreigners here will use awful pinyin to describe places, etc. to other foreigners. For example, I live in ’ T a a n District near to K u t i n g Station on J h o n g j h e n g Rd’, or ‘We can meet in K u n g k w a n’.
Nobody knows what that says.[/quote]
I do. [/quote]
Only with names that you have some experience with. You would NOT be able to closely approximate a class list of students if the names were all written in “crappy pinyin” - that is pinyin that doesn’t conform to any discernible standard. I’m not sure you’d be able to do it even if weren’t “crappy pinyin” and it DID conform to other discernible standards. I’d wager a beer on the outcome. [/quote]
No experience with students, maoman. How about ol’ Vinnie Siew? Or Shush Der-Ong, or any of them other weird-spelled fellows, though? My personal feeling is: "They don’t appear to give a shit, so I sure as hell amn’t about to. In my experience, Hanyu/Tongyong/Wade-Giles/insert your own self-made Pinyin here simply hasn’t affected me as far as I can recall, other than making me occasionally roll my eyes. My mail gets to my place just the same, so SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE knows the variations. Fine by me. I actually quite like it, in fact – gives me an inkling of what it must have been like living in Shakespeare’s Britain.
[quote=“sandman”][quote=“maoman”][quote=“sandman”][quote=“mike029”]It really bothers me when foreigners here will use awful pinyin to describe places, etc. to other foreigners. For example, I live in ’ T a a n District near to K u t i n g Station on J h o n g j h e n g Rd’, or ‘We can meet in K u n g k w a n’.
Nobody knows what that says.[/quote]
I do. [/quote]
Only with names that you have some experience with. You would NOT be able to closely approximate a class list of students if the names were all written in “crappy pinyin” - that is pinyin that doesn’t conform to any discernible standard. I’m not sure you’d be able to do it even if weren’t “crappy pinyin” and it DID conform to other discernible standards. I’d wager a beer on the outcome. [/quote]
No experience with students, maoman.[/quote]
It doesn’t matter - a name’s a name, and so many place names in Taiwan come from people’s names anyway, so that really isn’t a defense. You said that you “know” what names in crappy pinyin are. I’m betting you don’t - either in meaning, or in pronunciation, with the exception of names that you already have prior experience with. I can easily come up with names in “crappy pinyin” that you would not “know”, either in terms of pronunciation, or in meaning.
[quote=“Deuce Dropper”]Quit stumpin for the commies like a bunch of stooges.
You’ll have to pry the keyboard from my cold dead hands to stop me from spelling Taipei and Kaohsiung.
TaiBei, and Gaoxiong. I ain’t even tryin to feel that Mainland crap.
Next thing you know people will be pining for simplified characters.[/quote]
I’m not sure the OP is railing against non-Hanyu systems. It’s my impression that he’s railing against mixed up systems or spellings with no system at all. Kaohsiung is standard Wade-Giles, as is Taipei.
[quote=“maoman”][quote=“sandman”][quote=“maoman”][quote=“sandman”][quote=“mike029”]It really bothers me when foreigners here will use awful pinyin to describe places, etc. to other foreigners. For example, I live in ’ T a a n District near to K u t i n g Station on J h o n g j h e n g Rd’, or ‘We can meet in K u n g k w a n’.
Nobody knows what that says.[/quote]
I do. [/quote]
Only with names that you have some experience with. You would NOT be able to closely approximate a class list of students if the names were all written in “crappy pinyin” - that is pinyin that doesn’t conform to any discernible standard. I’m not sure you’d be able to do it even if weren’t “crappy pinyin” and it DID conform to other discernible standards. I’d wager a beer on the outcome. [/quote]
No experience with students, maoman.[/quote]
It doesn’t matter - a name’s a name, and so many place names in Taiwan come from people’s names anyway, so that really isn’t a defense. You said that you “know” what names in crappy pinyin are. I’m betting you don’t - either in meaning, or in pronunciation, with the exception of names that you already have prior experience with. I can easily come up with names in “crappy pinyin” that you would not “know”, either in terms of pronunciation, or in meaning.[/quote]
A defense? I’m not defending anything. I’m just saying its not something that has bothered me in the past. Sure, its a bit silly and it makes the Taiwanese look a bit silly, but surely that’s a problem for the Taiwanese authorities to address – IF they see it as a problem. The overwhelming evidence, however, seems to indicate that they don’t give a toss, and that they don’t really appear to rate the expert opinions of local scholars and foreigners. Again, :shrug: Their problem, not mine. They want to look like ignorant hayseeds, I say, go RIGHT ahead, Mr. SEEEEEOW!
[quote=“maoman”][quote=“sandman”][quote=“mike029”]It really bothers me when foreigners here will use awful pinyin to describe places, etc. to other foreigners. For example, I live in ’ T a a n District near to K u t i n g Station on J h o n g j h e n g Rd’, or ‘We can meet in K u n g k w a n’.
Nobody knows what that says.[/quote]
I do. [/quote]
Only with names that you have some experience with. You would NOT be able to closely approximate a class list of students if the names were all written in “crappy pinyin” - that is pinyin that doesn’t conform to any discernible standard. I’m not sure you’d be able to do it even if weren’t “crappy pinyin” and it DID conform to other discernible standards. I’d wager a beer on the outcome. [/quote]
Transliterated Chinese names are a pain in the ass. To begin with, quite a few refer to names like “Tsai I-lin” as an “English” name. No, “Jolin Tsai” is an English name. If the person is from Taiwan, names are traditionally transliterated using quasi Wade-Giles with the given name hyphenated, while Chinese nationals use Hanyu and given name unhyphenated. Some choose to remain consistent with the “family name, given name” order, while others follow the reversed, western convention. Then there’s the question of whether to capitalize the second character of the given name (I-Lin or I-lin).
I wish the ISO would come out with a guideline for this. Until then, I just go with the Taipei Times and China Post way of styling Chinese names.
[quote=“sandman”][quote=“maoman”][quote=“sandman”][quote=“maoman”][quote=“sandman”][quote=“mike029”]It really bothers me when foreigners here will use awful pinyin to describe places, etc. to other foreigners. For example, I live in ’ T a a n District near to K u t i n g Station on J h o n g j h e n g Rd’, or ‘We can meet in K u n g k w a n’.
Nobody knows what that says.[/quote]
I do. [/quote]
Only with names that you have some experience with. You would NOT be able to closely approximate a class list of students if the names were all written in “crappy pinyin” - that is pinyin that doesn’t conform to any discernible standard. I’m not sure you’d be able to do it even if weren’t “crappy pinyin” and it DID conform to other discernible standards. I’d wager a beer on the outcome. [/quote]
No experience with students, maoman.[/quote]
It doesn’t matter - a name’s a name, and so many place names in Taiwan come from people’s names anyway, so that really isn’t a defense. You said that you “know” what names in crappy pinyin are. I’m betting you don’t - either in meaning, or in pronunciation, with the exception of names that you already have prior experience with. I can easily come up with names in “crappy pinyin” that you would not “know”, either in terms of pronunciation, or in meaning.[/quote]
A defense? I’m not defending anything. I’m just saying its not something that has bothered me in the past. Sure, its a bit silly and it makes the Taiwanese look a bit silly, but surely that’s a problem for the Taiwanese authorities to address…[/quote]sand, we’re not talking about local usage, we’re talking about foreign usage of crappy pinyin, and your stated ability to “know” what people are talking about. I’m asserting that you can only do that with a handful of names with which you’ve had previous experience, that you would be able to discern neither pronunciation nor meaning with names with which you haven’t.
[quote=“maoman”][quote=“sandman”][quote=“maoman”][quote=“sandman”][quote=“maoman”][quote=“sandman”][quote=“mike029”]It really bothers me when foreigners here will use awful pinyin to describe places, etc. to other foreigners. For example, I live in ’ T a a n District near to K u t i n g Station on J h o n g j h e n g Rd’, or ‘We can meet in K u n g k w a n’.
Nobody knows what that says.[/quote]
I do. [/quote]
Only with names that you have some experience with. You would NOT be able to closely approximate a class list of students if the names were all written in “crappy pinyin” - that is pinyin that doesn’t conform to any discernible standard. I’m not sure you’d be able to do it even if weren’t “crappy pinyin” and it DID conform to other discernible standards. I’d wager a beer on the outcome. [/quote]
No experience with students, maoman.[/quote]
It doesn’t matter - a name’s a name, and so many place names in Taiwan come from people’s names anyway, so that really isn’t a defense. You said that you “know” what names in crappy pinyin are. I’m betting you don’t - either in meaning, or in pronunciation, with the exception of names that you already have prior experience with. I can easily come up with names in “crappy pinyin” that you would not “know”, either in terms of pronunciation, or in meaning.[/quote]
A defense? I’m not defending anything. I’m just saying its not something that has bothered me in the past. Sure, its a bit silly and it makes the Taiwanese look a bit silly, but surely that’s a problem for the Taiwanese authorities to address…[/quote]sand, we’re not talking about local usage, we’re talking about foreign usage of crappy pinyin, and your stated ability to “know” what people are talking about. I’m asserting that you can only do that with a handful of names with which you’ve had previous experience, that you would be able to discern neither pronunciation nor meaning with names with which you haven’t.[/quote]
Sure, but they’re THEIR names, not ours. They’ve had your argument pointed out to them time and time and time and TIME again – BOTH administrations – and neither one has paid even so much as passing lip service to the idea that some foreign people would like to know how to properly spell Chinese words in the Roman alphabet, or at least have a constant standard system. They don’t care, so as long as my mail reaches me, why on earth should I? They KNOW the situation and choose to say “fuck you, pesky foreigners! How DARE you tell us how to write our glorious language!” Yeah. So it makes them look like ignoramuses. Its just another in a long list.
[quote=“sandman”][quote=“maoman”][quote=“sandman”][quote=“maoman”][quote=“sandman”][quote=“maoman”][quote=“sandman”][quote=“mike029”]It really bothers me when foreigners here will use awful pinyin to describe places, etc. to other foreigners. For example, I live in ’ T a a n District near to K u t i n g Station on J h o n g j h e n g Rd’, or ‘We can meet in K u n g k w a n’.
Nobody knows what that says.[/quote]
I do. [/quote]
Only with names that you have some experience with. You would NOT be able to closely approximate a class list of students if the names were all written in “crappy pinyin” - that is pinyin that doesn’t conform to any discernible standard. I’m not sure you’d be able to do it even if weren’t “crappy pinyin” and it DID conform to other discernible standards. I’d wager a beer on the outcome. [/quote]
No experience with students, maoman.[/quote]
It doesn’t matter - a name’s a name, and so many place names in Taiwan come from people’s names anyway, so that really isn’t a defense. You said that you “know” what names in crappy pinyin are. I’m betting you don’t - either in meaning, or in pronunciation, with the exception of names that you already have prior experience with. I can easily come up with names in “crappy pinyin” that you would not “know”, either in terms of pronunciation, or in meaning.[/quote]
A defense? I’m not defending anything. I’m just saying its not something that has bothered me in the past. Sure, its a bit silly and it makes the Taiwanese look a bit silly, but surely that’s a problem for the Taiwanese authorities to address…[/quote]sand, we’re not talking about local usage, we’re talking about foreign usage of crappy pinyin, and your stated ability to “know” what people are talking about. I’m asserting that you can only do that with a handful of names with which you’ve had previous experience, that you would be able to discern neither pronunciation nor meaning with names with which you haven’t.[/quote]
Sure, but they’re THEIR names, not ours. They’ve had your argument pointed out to them time and time and time and TIME again – BOTH administrations – and neither one has paid even so much as passing lip service to the idea that some foreign people would like to know how to properly spell Chinese words in the Roman alphabet, or at least have a constant standard system. They don’t care, so as long as my mail reaches me, why on earth should I? They KNOW the situation and choose to say “fuck you, pesky foreigners! How DARE you tell us how to write our glorious language!” Yeah. So it makes them look like ignoramuses. Its just another in a long list.[/quote]
Aaaaah! Sandy! We’re not talking about LOCAL usage, we’re talking about FOREIGN usage. Presumably a foreigner with no knowledge of local names, either physical or personal, would HEAR a word and use “crappy pinyin” to express that word in writing. You say you would “know” what they are talking about, and EYE am asserting that apart from a handful of names with which you’ve had prior experience you would neither “know” the pronunciation nor the meaning. This has nothing to do with how locals represent their personal names or their place names.
[/quote]
