There is no more room for one Taiwan one China than there is for two Chinas. In fact, those two go together in the same familiar policy.
Wow, do you work for the DPP as its economist? You’d be right up there with such quality hires as Mark “LP” Chen.
[quote=“dearpeter”]Ma Ying-jeou just said he would change the names back if he wins the election.
Thank you Ma. I’m thinking you really aren’t the politician I used to think you were.[/quote]
this gaylord will change the name back to what? ROC or PRC?
or maybe he’ll also change Taiwan name and replace it by ‘chinese Taipei’? 
Last time: “Happy New Chinese Year!”
Next year: “[color=red]
Happy New Taiwanese Year!
[/color]”
[quote=“zeugmite”]There is no more room for one Taiwan one China than there is for two Chinas. In fact, those two go together in the same familiar policy.[/quote] Wow, do you work for the CCP as a propagandist?
No.
Do you live in a cave on Mars? (Yes.)
No.
Do you live in a cave on Mars? (Yes.)[/quote]
i fail to understand why there is no room for ONE TAIWAN and ONE CHINA? tHE island of taiwan can NEVER be physically annexed to the land mass of china (well not for kazillion years anyway) so?? why is there no “room”. There is no room per the CCP , but not per the taiwanese.
last time i checked I didnt live on mars either 
Perhaps YOU should return there??? HAHA
zeugmite is right. You’re focused on the wrong words here, tommy.
He said that there is no more room for “one China, one Taiwan” than there is for “two Chinas”. In other words, both things are about equal from a political point of view. He’s not talking geographically or scientifically. He’s talking about the political truth.
And he’s right. “Two Chinas” or “one China, one Taiwan” will translate into effective Taiwanese independence, and at this point in time, and would also translate into PLA Marines marching down the streets of Taipei.
[quote=“cctang”]zeugmite is right. You’re focused on the wrong words here, tommy.
He said that there is no more room for “one China, one Taiwan” than there is for “two Chinas”. In other words, both things are about equal from a political point of view. He’s not talking geographically or scientifically. He’s talking about the political truth.
And he’s right. “Two Chinas” or “one China, one Taiwan” will translate into effective Taiwanese independence, and at this point in time, and would also translate into PLA Marines marching down the streets of Taipei.[/quote]
yes unfortunately we have to deal with the pragmatic as well as the idealistic.
And yes, actually i did know that one china, one taiwan, and two china equates to the same vein of thinking (i.e. Taiwan Independence).
Ideally: YES TAiwan is and has been independent of China for much of its “political” existance and should continue to be so if its people wish (per the idea of democracy)
Pragmatic: The CCP is in control of a people that vastly outnumbers Taiwan in People numbers and could over-run the island. All they would have to do is send over MILLIONS of regular unarmed citizens to TAiwan. And the islands military could not shoot them all even if they did that (and THAT would be grossly wrong in the eyes of the world). So in fact China could take over Taiwan without a shot being fired (from Chinas side) by sending over MILLIONS OF REFUGEES so to speak. Unarmed civilians, men , women, children ,babies, dogs, cats , rabbits (you get the picture). And essentially taiwan would be overrun.
so yes pragmatically, china is the far stronger entity here and holds almost all the cards. Taiwan only has one Ace up its sleeve . Its a US protectorate in everything but name.
however, heres an idea for China. Instead of continueing to embrace the ideals of “communism” which China is in reality not really following. China is DE FACTO capitalistic now if not in name in FACT. sO instead of China continueing to be under the govt of the CCP. Why not let Taiwan run the show IN CHINA???
China has taken advantage of TAiwans money and know how to build its country. So why not embrace San Min Chu Yee?? The tenants of the ROC. Why not in fact say that ol Chiang had a better program going on after the cold war??
Why not in fact compare TAiwan variety shows on TV with those in China to see the fundamental difference between a “free” society and one thats greatly autocratic. Would you not like to see a democratic and “free China” ??
Why not build a China that is NOT hegemonistic ? Why not build a China that is at the forefront of human rights? Why not build a country that is like the USA, by the people, for the people, of the people? wHY not buiild a better life for its people? Why not look to TAiwan for inspiration and invite TAiwans leaders to take part in the running of China??
Why hold to spending a great portion of your hard earned on military hardware and threats to world peace. Why not instead hold to better ideals ? Why not be a world policeman like the USA and commit much of your resources to fight world evil and domination by despots??
why not? Why should China remain “communist” ? Why dont the newly enriched young chinese overthrow the old despots in power hiding under the banner of communism and having to “fight taiwan” as a rallying point to hold onto power?? Why not kick out your old autocratic nonsense (like taiwan has ) and build a new government commited to a nation where its people can live a better life under more personal freedom.
TAiwan is about more personal freedom, its about getting what you work for, its about having the freedom to choose what you want to do for work, where you want to work, etc. It is by no means perfect. NO that is is not. But it is on the right track in many ways.
Western countries (and TAiwan and Japan and Singapore basically subscribe to the western countries philosophy) entitle its people to a better life for most, to greater personal freedom. Why doesnt China follow in this path? RAther then the path of communism. Of which the IDEAL really isnt bad, but we have shown that it doesnt work. If China stuck to its communistic ideals, it would still be like CUBA. To the credit of its leaders, its thinking outside of the box now. And has been for a decade or more !!!
Perhaps the old guard in China really does understand on a personal level that China IS changing and has to continue to change. And perhaps they are grooming a new leadership that will be modern and 21st century.
China has to change. China could be like tAiwan (including all the fights in teh legislature??) and be the better for it overall
More like if Taiwan sticks to TI ideals, it will be like Cuba.
Why not the Pan-Green embrace CKS first, so that CCP can learn by example.
cough that is not what see in the news these day.
More like if Taiwan sticks to TI ideals, it will be like Cuba.
Why not the Pan-Green embrace CKS first, so that CPP can learn by example.
cough that is not what see in the news these day.[/quote]
and yet YOU live in taiwan, why not China?? to better prove your point then?
tommy,
I think you’re knowlegable about Taiwan, but ignorant about China.
There’s little in China today that’s “Communist”; no one is embracing the ideals of “Communism”. Socialism still has wide appeal, but Leninist communism has next to zero appeal.
I’m not sure what you have in mind by having “Taiwan run the show China”, but I think many people in China would absolutely be interested in a reformed political system partly built around Taiwan’s model. As I’ve said many times before, Beijing is open to the idea of coming up with a new flag/national title after reunification… maybe it’ll be called zhonghua minguo, and maybe it’ll be the zhunghua minguo flag. And in the PRC, Sun Yat-sen is still recognized as the forefather of the modern Chinese republic, and his ideals are still taught in schools. I grew up visiting Sun’s real tomb in Nanjing.
If Taipei was better run, I think there would be real enthusiasm for the idea of reunifying under the ROC flag… as it is, I don’t think anyone’s really supportive of the idea of putting Chen Shui-Bian, MYJ, the ROC fighting legislators, or their accountants in charge in Beijing.
Nothing in the cross-straits conflict of today has anything to do with “Communism”. If mainland China was democratic today, we’d likely have a ultra-nationalist party that would have a very good possibility of winning democratic control in the morning, and launching a war on Taiwan in the afternoon.
How quickly one forget the sermon they were preaching only minutes ago…
More to the point if I lived on the North Pole how does that validate or invalidate my position, given that I’m a product of a society that allows me the “freedom” of choosing my profession and location of operation as you suggest.
yes i would more then concede that im not totally hip on whats up in China to say the least.
and there are some other notable points to keep in mind
China had better cultivate its own leaders based upon “new” democratic and human rights ideals rather then simply import the political characters from TAiwan. Im sure the Taiwanese will make a right mess of things immediately 
And yes Taiwan does have trouble keeping its own 3 ring circus operating at times (kmt, dpp, new party).
Taiwanese are a fudged group. They are a hodgepodge of “old” taiwanese and “new” taiwanese. The old being the ones who first subjugated and interbred with the natives (who are really the real formosans) versus the ones who came with chiang . And the ones who came with chiang have for the most part interbred with the old taiwanese to form a new subspecies of taiwanese, one that we may refer to as “new” taiwanese. They are of mainlander parents or what is known as “recent” arrivals but are more identified with being “Taiwanese” rather then Chinese. Even though they speak Mandarin (with a distinct taiwanese accent ) and write “traditional” chinese, whereas the bandits in China have bastardized (i dislike that word) the language to concoct a new written language. They dont feel the same sense of belonging to china that their fathers did (notice their moms are usually taiwanese as usually only the males came over for the most part).
The “old” taiwanese are for the most part still rather fond of their days under the Japanese empire and some wish Taiwan had still remained part of Japan (and thus no mess today versus china). They try to instill upon their young the use of Taiwanese as the “true” language of TAiwan (forgetting that its a mainland import too) and try to instill upon their young a difference between themselves and the children of mainlanders. A lot of people from south taiwan have this attitude. Whereas people in the north of taiwan mainly speak mandarin. HOwever, mandarin being the standard of education, most younger people speak mandarin by choice , even in favor of taiwanese. The DPP is a party of the “old” taiwanese, this is no doubt. They wish to further distance themselves from China and ally themselves with Japan.
The new taiwanese meantime believe that they are “different” from the chinese in china. They are ok with visiting china and interacting with chinese and doing business with china. But taiwanese look upon chinese as different from themselves , just like they feel singaporean chinese are different and also hongkong chinese are different. Yes, many think of themselves as being of the chinese race and part of the greater china umbrella. But yes, they do generally beg to differ . And dont consider themselves the same as “mainland chinese” . Taiwanese speak mandarin very differently from those from the mainland and the two can tell each other apart in the first sentence uttered.
These new taiwanese tend to ally themselves with the KMT and/or the NEW PARTY. They seek rapproachment and a working relationship wiht China. Whereas the DPP is of the opinion “you go your way and I will go my way” when it comes to China. The DPP laughs at the KMTs devotion to China and its aged concepts of regaining the mainland and to rescue the mainlanders from communism. They basically dont care bout that and dont care all that much bout China. They want to make sure that China stays “over there” and they will stay “over here”.
The best thing for China to do really is to build up their country as a model of human rights and a model of a good life. Then the Taiwanese may be assuaded to join such a society. AS it is now, Taiwanese are wary of the CCP’s China. And wary of being subjugated. Even the children of the Mainlanders that came with chiang and still have a soft spot for China dont really want to be part of the China thats under the CCP. They are happy to visit, to even live there while working, but still want to differentiate that they are actually Taiwanese rather then Chinese.
China could well end up with the flag of the Republic of China by its own choice. But it may be better off without the island of Taiwan and its DPP . Let the Taiwanese come to them and not the other way around is what i say. There may well be a reverse chiang migration in the future . But me thinks even the Taiwan born “mainlanders” will still opt to call Taiwan “home”. I mean to them it IS .
How quickly one forget the sermon they were preaching only minutes ago…
More to the point if I lived on the North Pole how does that validate or invalidate my position, given that I’m a product of a society that allows me the “freedom” of choosing my profession and location of operation as you suggest.[/quote]
HAHA but then “sermons” are tailored to those you serm to Yes i admit that you can have your thoughts no matter where you locate your physical self. But everything has to be considered in its entire context doesnt it? I meant by your tone that you seem dis- illusioned by todays Taiwan. And perhaps enamored with todays Chiina? And it would follow then that you should perhaps locate your physical self to China then? To further appreciate this new utopianism in China perhaps? Thats what I meant. YOu can always take bits and pieces of a “sermon” and apply that to a totally different context and thats what you are doing here .
tommy525,
I am descendent of the “reality” Taiwanese (aka “ugly” Taiwanese). We sold out other Taiwanese to the Japanese, the KMT, and the USA to ensure our clan survival.
We carry 2 chops to every business meeting and verbally agree to things in 6 dialects, just to ensure within the confusion our interest is always forwarded.
I don’t necessarily agree with your “old” and “new” Taiwanese analysis. The fragmentation is more complex and the term Taiwanese is not an umbrella term for everyone on Taiwan.
What is “new” Taiwanese “species” and “old” Taiwanese “subspecies”… what?
The joke goes that if you let Taiwanese squabble among themselves and come back in 100 years, every Taiwanese will be his/her own ethnicity and color and every day will be ethnic victim day.
That’s why Taiwan should be ruled by China. We Chinese have worked such things out and don’t subscribe to Such… Petty… Provincial… crap.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]tommy525,
I am descendent of the “reality” Taiwanese (aka “ugly” Taiwanese). We sold out other Taiwanese to the Japanese, the KMT, and the USA to ensure our clan survival.
We carry 2 chops to every business meeting and verbally agree to things in 6 dialects, just to ensure within the confusion our interest is always forwarded.
I don’t necessarily agree with your “old” and “new” Taiwanese analysis. The fragmentation is more complex and the term Taiwanese is not an umbrella term for everyone on Taiwan.[/quote]
well taiwanese have always liked to differentiate themselves. Taipei Taiwanese speak taiwanese slightly differently then Kaohsiung Taiwanese, then Taichung Taiwanese then Ilan Taiwanese. There has always been a type of mini nationalism or localism within Taiwan. And how can one expect such a people to consider themselves as “from China” then?
The KMT never really united all peoples in Taiwan. Perhaps only the Japanese did !!
Remember Taiwan in all its history is bout localism and differentiation. I mean even before the ethnic chinese arrived we had the original inhabitants. And they themselves had many sub groups with their own distinct language and customs, even if they had their similarities too.
Thats why Taiwan has its local mini culture and its local food specialities and the such.
my moms side of the family have been in TAiwan over 300 years so they are definitely “old” taiwanese but yet my mother is fervently KMT and supports the belief in a greater china .
She states that shes Taiwanese but Taiwan IS a part of China (although not CCP China). IM more ‘new’ Taiwanese in thinking. MOre the “ok you guys call yourselves whatever you want over there and just make sure you STAY OVER THERE” kinda philosophy. I think of myself as being half of the Chinese race yes, but I am half Taiwanese, rather then half Chinese (if China refers to China China, the mainland CCp china) and half American (im ethnically half chinese and half white)
[quote=“zeugmite”]What is “new” Taiwanese “species” and “old” Taiwanese “subspecies”… what?
The joke goes that if you let Taiwanese squabble among themselves and come back in 100 years, every Taiwanese will be his/her own ethnicity and color and every day will be ethnic victim day.
That’s why Taiwan should be ruled by China. We Chinese have worked such things out and don’t subscribe to Such… Petty… Provincial… crap.[/quote]
and thats why we dont want the Chinese here !!! We are fine taking care of ourselves without China! Somehow its all worked out in TAiwan. The Aboriginals didnt kill themselves and each other and managed to live in their groupings and maintain their own identity and language for thoiusands of years till the Chinese showed up.
And the TAiwanese are fine with classifying themselves as being from Taichung or Kaohsiung and what not .
TAiwanese may be more redneck then what is good for them but its all worked out so far?
All the different groups have worked out a co existance in a very heavily populated land.
tommy,
I agree with you when you speak from the perspective of the Taiwanese. You’re right, the most effective thing mainland China can do in terms of “converting” the Taiwanese would be to focus on our own lives/society. This whole discussion changes once we’re no longer the poorer cousins. I really get that, and I think that’s what mainland China is trying to do. Give us 10-20 years; it’ll happen.
But really, do you think mainlanders will take your advice of what’s “better” for China (in terms of “letting Taiwan go”) when you admit to being ignorant of modern China? I know I wouldn’t expect “old” Taiwanese to accept the advice, no matter how well intentioned it is, offered by Beijing party bosses that know nothing about Taiwan.
I think I’m pretty familiar with the description of various Taiwanese that you talked about. To me, the bottom line is that there’s a small % that can’t live with being Chinese, but a vast majority that can accept such a state of being… especially after they understand what modern China actually is. And even more importantly, there’s now a significant % of people in Taiwan that are working towards a workable compromise with the mainland. Everything looks positive from where I’m standing.
Money …gone.