Whats the deal with the Name Changes?

Politics Taiwan Politics
41

Dear Hu Jintao,

Some of us on this message board got to talking, and we’ve figured out a way for Taiwan and China to reunify. (Unless they’d be better of separate, but that’s another subject.)

  1. I’m afraid you’ll have to give up Communism. I don’t mean just the Communist economic policies–you’ve already done that, more or less. I mean, you’re going to have to look your colleagues in the CCP in the eye, and tell them that you plan to take away their / their families’ source of power and wealth. I know this is not going to be an easy sell, but we all have to make sacrifices for the Motherland, right?

  2. You’re going to have to establish “China” (i.e., the entity under which China and Taiwan are to be “reunified” under) as some sort of confederation, that would permit ambiguity as to whether its component entities possess sovereignty. Taiwan politicians are interested in EU-like arrangements, but are not likely to give up their claim to sovereignty (since that would be seen as a defeat). Good luck in explaining to the Hong Kongers, Tibetans, and Uighurs why they can’t have a similar arrangement. Or–if you decide to give them all their freedom–good luck explaining to your cronies (who seem to be drawn disproportionately from among the Han overlord class in the Western regions) that they’re going to lose their power-bases.

  3. You have to agree that despite “reunification,” your part of China will in fact have little-to-no control over this part of China. All you get is a symbol, and even that will be open to various interpretations.

Either that, or you could just invade us. Hope this helps.

Your lord and savior,
Jesus

42

Tommy,

Think about the politics of one’s skin and background then. Your mom is an “ai guo ming tang han ji” (love KMT sweat potato). You, on the other hand, are a Micky D French fry.

Could a French fry ever fit in a sweat potato farm? Could a sweat potato fit in with a bunch of French Fries, especially the Freedom Fries?

These questions and more should be answered in your next trans fat sermon.

Also think through how your mom family being in Taiwan for 300 years entitles you to an opinion on the matter. There are families that have been on Taiwan much longer than the Hoklo and Hakka groups, but for the most part are politically powerless on Taiwan.

43

[quote=“cctang”]tommy,

I agree with you when you speak from the perspective of the Taiwanese. You’re right, the most effective thing mainland China can do in terms of “converting” the Taiwanese would be to focus on our own lives/society. This whole discussion changes once we’re no longer the poorer cousins. I really get that, and I think that’s what mainland China is trying to do. Give us 10-20 years; it’ll happen.

But really, do you think mainlanders will take your advice of what’s “better” for China (in terms of “letting Taiwan go”) when you admit to being ignorant of modern China? I know I wouldn’t expect “old” Taiwanese to accept the advice, no matter how well intentioned it is, offered by Beijing party bosses that know nothing about Taiwan.

I think I’m pretty familiar with the description of various Taiwanese that you talked about. To me, the bottom line is that there’s a small % that can’t live with being Chinese, but a vast majority that can accept such a state of being… especially after they understand what modern China actually is. And even more importantly, there’s now a significant % of people in Taiwan that are working towards a workable compromise with the mainland. Everything looks positive from where I’m standing.[/quote]

yes thats what im talking about. who wants to join a china thats perceived as a few rungs above north korea. But a China thats like Japan? A China thats admired for its society and contribution to the modern world community? That China is not one that most Taiwanese would shy away from. IF China was as developed and modern as Singapore (although NOT as autocratic) then Taiwanese would be proud to call themselves Chinese (most of them, there will always be the ultra localists who dont want the world view, who prefer to be frogs in a well).

I think that in time Taiwan will need China more then China needs Taiwan. The long lost young daughter that is TAiwan should be allowed to return home if and when she wants to. NOt by coercion. She needs to feel she will have a nice room at home and be welcomed , rather then possibly beaten and thrown to the dogs, right?

and if she prefers to remain away? LEt her be . Let her go.

If I was a great leader of China, I wouldve leased Hong Kong to the brits for another 100 years at say six billion us dollars a year (to be increased per inflation) . And leased Macau to Portugal for good money too. And let Taiwan go. Because Taiwan isnt going anywhere anyway. Its peoples are keen to trade with China and liaise with China no matter what name Taiwan is under. And Taiwan is not likely to be a military threat to China.

44

“Sweat potato”…sounds kinda kinky to me…in a very “De Wallen” sorta way.

Kumbaya. :bow:

45

dfh

46

[quote=“almondbiscuit”]but the problem is that China is heavily addicted to the “return Taiwan to the motherland” propaganda.

it is addicted to it in two ways: 1) identity: using it as a means of fighting its inferiority complex, having lost its face to the western and japanese imperialists after centuries of thinking itself as the greatest nation on earth. 2) patriotism: using it to unite its diverse population.

the best bet for twnese pro-dejure independence is to encourage more self-examination among the chinese - bc the tension is really coming from China’s identity problems, not taiwan.[/quote]

…Riiiiight. Because we all know that Taiwan’s identity problems do not cause tension, since, of course it isn’t based on any Hoklo inferiority complex or any need to use it to gain an ethnic upper hand.

47

what a load of drivel.

and you are showing your true colours by the epithet ‘provincial’. makes all of us living in taiwan realy look forward to the delightful benevolence that will be shown y our ‘masters and superiors’ in the cultural backwater that is beijing.

why don’t you come back when you’ve grown a real head instead of showing us your turnip?

dork.

48

zh

49

[quote=“almondbiscuit”]
do you really think that Taiwanese wouldn’t choose formal independence without the threat of force?

the fact is, taiwan has a legal historical right and the default situation is very much that.

it’s not “abian is a radical” or “the green movement is radical”, but that China is impinging on the sovereignty of a state when it comes to its claim Taiwan.

the western world needs to get over its sense of guilt and realise that it’s indulging a childish bully. that because of its inability to properly deal with its own sense of guilt, it’s feeding on the lie sold by that bully.[/quote]

+1 :bravo:

50

Of course it is the westerners’ fault and China’s fault. None of the blame is on the Hoklo Nationist movement calling for resurgence Taiwanese culture at the exclusion of all other cultures on Taiwan, or on their ideological movement known as TI.

You wonder why people on Taiwan treat TI supporters like the KKK and the Nazi party.

51

[quote=“almondbiscuit”]it’s not “abian is a radical” or “the green movement is radical”, but that China is impinging on the sovereignty of a state when it comes to its claim Taiwan.

the western world needs to get over its sense of guilt and realise that it’s indulging a childish bully. that because of its inability to properly deal with its own sense of guilt, it’s feeding on the lie sold by that bully. [/quote]
You use the phrase “legal sovereignty” when you really mean your interpretation of reformed laws in an ideal society. The western world isn’t acting against China’s “childish bullying” in Taiwan because just about every western power participate in the same bullying system, where “sovereignty” of the larger entity dominates over the self-determination rights of any minority.

All of this moral hand-wringing sounds nice when preaching from the pulpit, but in actuality, your principals would abandon you in a second if I were to purchase a large country estate in your home country (United States? Canada?) and proclaimed a new independent state… with the intention of eventually transitioning into part of the territory of the People’s Republic of China. (With the help of the PRC’s foreign ministry, I can probably get more international recognition of my independent sovereign status than Taiwan has managed.)

Am I wrong about you and your moral rectitude? Will you help me establish an outpost of the People’s Republic of China in your home country? I’ll even pay!

52

^Only on the condition that I act as the sole real estate agent representing the buying and selling party at a 4% commission from both sides. :laughing:

53

[quote=“tommy525”]yes thats what im talking about. who wants to join a china thats perceived as a few rungs above north Korea. But a China thats like Japan? A China thats admired for its society and contribution to the modern world community? That China is not one that most Taiwanese would shy away from. IF China was as developed and modern as Singapore (although NOT as autocratic) then Taiwanese would be proud to call themselves Chinese (most of them, there will always be the ultra localists who dont want the world view, who prefer to be frogs in a well).

I think that in time Taiwan will need China more then China needs Taiwan. The long lost young daughter that is TAiwan should be allowed to return home if and when she wants to. NOt by coercion. She needs to feel she will have a nice room at home and be welcomed , rather then possibly beaten and thrown to the dogs, right? [/quote]
Again, your input up to here is appreciated and helpful… because you’re speaking from the perspective of the Taiwanese.

But if you’re going to start offering solutions from the point of view of the Chinese… you should understand modern China first:

[quote]
If I was a great leader of China, I wouldve leased Hong Kong to the brits for another 100 years at say six billion us dollars a year (to be increased per inflation) . And leased Macau to Portugal for good money too. And let Taiwan go. Because Taiwan isnt going anywhere anyway. Its peoples are keen to trade with China and liaise with China no matter what name Taiwan is under. And Taiwan is not likely to be a military threat to China.[/quote]
Why? Why should we lease Hong Kong to the Brits? Why should we lease Macau to Portugal? Should we perhaps also lease Qingdao to the Germans? Yunnan to the Vietnamese? Why should we prostitute ourselves that way? Do we really need that kind of money? Is China struggling economically or politically because we don’t have that money? Are there other nations prostituting themselves for money that way?

Will Taiwan “lease” Taipei to mainland China? Why doesn’t Taiwan just lease the entire island to us, for that matter? Name a price; if it’s lower than the military budget we’re already paying, maybe we’ll give it some serious thought.

And if we let Taiwan go, where does that leave the concept of nation-hood? Should we let “every” province go…? Should the wealthier provinces (Guangdong, Zhejiang, Jiangsu) with their own history, language, and culture with a GDP far higher than the national average abandon the poorer provinces?

When I think about the future that you propose for China, I see something that looks very much like the Arab Middle East. I see a people with a shared history, religion, culture, and language… exploited and divided by outside forces into small, warring, feuding states; some obscenely wealthy, some pathetically poor. No one (but the Arabs) would benefit from a united Arab nation… Europe and the United States would be weak in the face of an united Arab nation that could insist on mutual defense, mutual economic development, and dictate international oil prices. There’s a reason the British/French divided the Arab remnants of the Ottoman Empire into the small arbitrary pieces that we see today. There’s much we can learn from history, here.

There is much to be gained from mutual unity. And the opposite of that must therefore also be true: there is much we lose from the lack of mutual unity… even if it’s just opportunity cost in what we may have had, 200, 500 years from today. There is much that will be lost with an independent Taiwan.

Look, China is unique amongst human civilizations for having maintained its cultural/historical/political unity throughout the years. This is not a coincidence; this required sacrifice and determination through thousands of years. I for one am not prepared to see that unity discarded. Looking forward another 50, 150, 250 years… China may be unique yet again. 150 years in the future… is it impossible to imagine a Canada split between East + West, Anglophone + Francophone? If the United States eventually loses a war on its own turf (and history tells us every nation loses wars, eventually)… is it impossible to imagine a United States divided between red versus blue, Anglo-Saxon versus Hispanic, progressive coasts versus conservative rural?

History might one day “end” as some predict, and the concept of nations may eventually fade away. Maybe we’ll all be peaceful, mutually supportive citizens of the same world. But for now, I live in the world that already exists. And in my opinion, in the world that exists today, China must continue to place great value on unity (even if it’s just “symbolic”)… for the interest of all Chinese, including the Taiwanese.

54

What’s the going rate per acre for rural land in the middle of the US? I know that in California (away from the road network), it’s only a few hundred $ per acre. A few thousand acres in the middle of Idaho would be a great place for a PLA training base, don’t you think? Wouldn’t be much in terms of commissions for you, but I promise you visa-free access to the restaurants…

55

cctang,

Unfortunately, White Nationalist have already taken footholds in rural states like Oregon and much of the midwest. Might as well broker the urban areas where there is already a large concentration of Chinese Nationals.

Do you really want to be the first guy selling Bubble Tea in Idaho?

56

If CCTang bought an estate in the US and 400 years later it had 23-24 million people on it who had their own government, yes, I would let that estate form a state (country, that is). This new country would be called ‘CCTang guo’ after its founding father, or ‘tang guo’ for short. A lolli would be its national symbol.

If that estate had shown signs of being a dire threat to the US, I would have worked with it/given aid etc. before it wanted independence so that peaceful co-existence would have been a goal that it shared with me. If too much time and mistrust had built up, I would not stand in the way of independence, but would continue trying to show how a close relationship would benefit both parties through concrete actions on trade, security, etc. If I thought that it becoming independent might encourage other US states to become independent and hostile to me (why don’t they like me?), I would threaten it day in and day out with massive lose of life and property until it buckled to my will.

57

Wait, 400 years and 23-24 million? Why such a high threshold? By those standards, you wouldn’t have supported the founding of the United States, either. The US didn’t have 23 million people until about 1850.

What’s the exact cut off in terms of years and # of people before you would “let” that estate form a country? Just wanted to know how many families I should petition for Beijing to send. Having my own government wouldn’t be difficult. I will be CCTang Guofu.

PS. None of this is really difficult to imagine. It very much parallels the creation of the state of Texas, which came into being thanks to 54 delegates… almost all of whom were probably not even born in the territory. I’m reasonably sure I can find 54 delegates for CCTang Guo.

58

I see you like the CCTang guo concept. some hidden dreams i tapped into? I will set the cut off at exactly the precise number of 400 years and 23 to 24 million people. anything in history that is in conflict with that will not pass my test; therefore you should lodge a complaint of declaratory relief with the relevant authorities. PS can we go a little further with the cctang guo concept just for fun? what is your symbol? the lolli doesn’t seem fitting to your solemn personality somehow. what would be your anthem? your main export? would your body be on display somewhere after your passing? what made me think of your passing? are you by any chance feeling under the weather? have you been to the doctor lately? pick up the phone and make that appointment!!! don’t wait!!!

59

I’m not all that excited about the CCGuo concept. 人怕出名猪怕壮.

Obviously, I’m just testing the dedication to the principals of “self-determination” expressed by some, including yourself. Your principal on this issue seem to be very arbitrary.

60

[quote=“cctang”][quote=“tommy525”]yes thats what im talking about. who wants to join a china thats perceived as a few rungs above north Korea. But a China thats like Japan? A China thats admired for its society and contribution to the modern world community? That China is not one that most Taiwanese would shy away from. IF China was as developed and modern as Singapore (although NOT as autocratic) then Taiwanese would be proud to call themselves Chinese (most of them, there will always be the ultra localists who dont want the world view, who prefer to be frogs in a well).

I think that in time Taiwan will need China more then China needs Taiwan. The long lost young daughter that is TAiwan should be allowed to return home if and when she wants to. NOt by coercion. She needs to feel she will have a nice room at home and be welcomed , rather then possibly beaten and thrown to the dogs, right? [/quote]
Again, your input up to here is appreciated and helpful… because you’re speaking from the perspective of the Taiwanese.

But if you’re going to start offering solutions from the point of view of the Chinese… you should understand modern China first:

[quote]
If I was a great leader of China, I wouldve leased Hong Kong to the brits for another 100 years at say six billion us dollars a year (to be increased per inflation) . And leased Macau to Portugal for good money too. And let Taiwan go. Because Taiwan isnt going anywhere anyway. Its peoples are keen to trade with China and liaise with China no matter what name Taiwan is under. And Taiwan is not likely to be a military threat to China.[/quote]
Why? Why should we lease Hong Kong to the Brits? Why should we lease Macau to Portugal? Should we perhaps also lease Qingdao to the Germans? Yunnan to the Vietnamese? Why should we prostitute ourselves that way? Do we really need that kind of money? Is China struggling economically or politically because we don’t have that money? Are there other nations prostituting themselves for money that way?

Will Taiwan “lease” Taipei to mainland China? Why doesn’t Taiwan just lease the entire island to us, for that matter? Name a price; if it’s lower than the military budget we’re already paying, maybe we’ll give it some serious thought.

And if we let Taiwan go, where does that leave the concept of nation-hood? Should we let “every” province go…? Should the wealthier provinces (Guangdong, Zhejiang, Jiangsu) with their own history, language, and culture with a GDP far higher than the national average abandon the poorer provinces?

When I think about the future that you propose for China, I see something that looks very much like the Arab Middle East. I see a people with a shared history, religion, culture, and language… exploited and divided by outside forces into small, warring, feuding states; some obscenely wealthy, some pathetically poor. No one (but the Arabs) would benefit from a united Arab nation… Europe and the United States would be weak in the face of an united Arab nation that could insist on mutual defense, mutual economic development, and dictate international oil prices. There’s a reason the British/French divided the Arab remnants of the Ottoman Empire into the small arbitrary pieces that we see today. There’s much we can learn from history, here.

There is much to be gained from mutual unity. And the opposite of that must therefore also be true: there is much we lose from the lack of mutual unity… even if it’s just opportunity cost in what we may have had, 200, 500 years from today. There is much that will be lost with an independent Taiwan.

Look, China is unique amongst human civilizations for having maintained its cultural/historical/political unity throughout the years. This is not a coincidence; this required sacrifice and determination through thousands of years. I for one am not prepared to see that unity discarded. Looking forward another 50, 150, 250 years… China may be unique yet again. 150 years in the future… is it impossible to imagine a Canada split between East + West, Anglophone + Francophone? If the United States eventually loses a war on its own turf (and history tells us every nation loses wars, eventually)… is it impossible to imagine a United States divided between red versus blue, Anglo-Saxon versus Hispanic, progressive coasts versus conservative rural?

History might one day “end” as some predict, and the concept of nations may eventually fade away. Maybe we’ll all be peaceful, mutually supportive citizens of the same world. But for now, I live in the world that already exists. And in my opinion, in the world that exists today, China must continue to place great value on unity (even if it’s just “symbolic”)… for the interest of all Chinese, including the Taiwanese.[/quote]

Of course you realize that a unified ‘Arab’ Middle East is a myth and has never existed, even when the ostensibly ‘united’ Caliphate did.

Similarly, Chinese ‘cultural unity’ is also a myth invented as a part of modern Chinese nationalism. The warring states were unified? There were no ‘foreign’ dynasties? All of ‘China’ is Han?