Whats the matter with the blues?

Uh, okay.

Uh, okay.[/quote]

:slight_smile::):slight_smile: pretty funny

but actually quite untrue, almost all countries have something to do with china nowadays.

eastern european companies all rushing for a piece of the pie. The usa is already in the pie. So is most of western europe already. Russia with her weapons, The africans for education, aid, etc. Asian countries to some degree at least, if not a lot.

very few countries have zero relations with china in fact.

Very funny, and very untrue. Although it was nice of belgian pie to share us his vision of the world if he were in charge… he’s clearly quite detached from the real world.

China’s integration with other Asian economies is speeding along. South Korea and Japan are huge investors of course, and China will be the first country to join the rest of ASEAN in a free trade agreement later this decade. ASEAN represents a huge market in its own right, and I think that’s going to be a huge win for all involved.

The blues love to criticize the arms package, but they never say what their differing approach would be. Some of them seem to think it is a waste of effort for Taiwan to have anything more than a coast guard. Some of them seem to think the subs are a bad buy, but don’t go so far as to say Taiwan should become strategically unarmed.

I think there is a lot of merit to the argument against buying subs. I’m no expert, but I would guess it is a better strategy to invest in jet fighters and anti-sub aircraft solely. The key issues in a conflict with China would be airspace control (jets) and blockade busting (anti-sub). But have the blues offered their proposed strategy? I don’t think they have.

A lot of blues talk tripe such as suggesting any arms race is futile. This is a complete fallacy. The issue is not whether China can take Taiwan with an all-out effort, but rather maintaining the chance that an attack would be unsuccessful. History is full of failed attacks. Invading an island is especially difficult. China will not attack Taiwan unless it is certain of a decisive victory. To attack and be embarrassed by Taiwan’s successful resistance would be too much of a political risk for the CCP to take, especially since they have used the Taiwan issue as a foundation upon which to build their recent rapid (rabid?) buildup of nationalism.

Does anyone think that Vietnam should stop maintaining its armed forces, since there is no danger of an attack by Cambodia? Of course not. It is next door to China. China has attacked them in the past. They maintain a DETERRENT as an obvious matter of basic principle.

How the pan-blues can get away with suggesting that that tried and true principle of deterrence somehow doesn’t apply to Taiwan is beyond me. I would expect the public of Taiwan to feel very suspicious of any politician who suggests unilateral disarmament in the face of China’s explicit beligerence. But I guess the Taiwanese are not a normal citizenry.

[quote=“dearpeter”]The blues love to criticize the arms package, but they never say what their differing approach would be. Some of them seem to think it is a waste of effort for Taiwan to have anything more than a coast guard. Some of them seem to think the subs are a bad buy, but don’t go so far as to say Taiwan should become strategically unarmed.

I think there is a lot of merit to the argument against buying subs. I’m no expert, but I would guess it is a better strategy to invest in jet fighters and anti-sub aircraft solely. The key issues in a conflict with China would be airspace control (jets) and blockade busting (anti-sub). But have the blues offered their proposed strategy? I don’t think they have.

A lot of blues talk tripe such as suggesting any arms race is futile. This is a complete fallacy. The issue is not whether China can take Taiwan with an all-out effort, but rather maintaining the chance that an attack would be unsuccessful. History is full of failed attacks. Invading an island is especially difficult. China will not attack Taiwan unless it is certain of a decisive victory. To attack and be embarrassed by Taiwan’s successful resistance would be too much of a political risk for the CCP to take, especially since they have used the Taiwan issue as a foundation upon which to build their recent rapid (rabid?) buildup of nationalism.

Does anyone think that Vietnam should stop maintaining its armed forces, since there is no danger of an attack by Cambodia? Of course not. It is next door to China. China has attacked them in the past. They maintain a DETERRENT as an obvious matter of basic principle.

How the pan-blues can get away with suggesting that that tried and true principle of deterrence somehow doesn’t apply to Taiwan is beyond me. I would expect the public of Taiwan to feel very suspicious of any politician who suggests unilateral disarmament in the face of China’s explicit beligerence. But I guess the Taiwanese are not a normal citizenry.[/quote]

:slight_smile::slight_smile: ya taiwan is pretty abnormal in a lot of ways

I thought the peace treaty was the opposing approach.

I thought the peace treaty was the opposing approach.[/quote]

the last time the KMT had a peace treaty with the CCP, the latter took over all of China, forcing the evacuation of the KMT to Taiwan.

what now? Is a peace treaty workable with China today? Given that its a different China? A peace treaty would be the solution if it works.

basically i and millions of others just want china to leave taiwan the F alone !!

I thought the peace treaty was the opposing approach.[/quote]

the last time the KMT had a peace treaty with the CCP, the latter took over all of China, forcing the evacuation of the KMT to Taiwan.

what now? Is a peace treaty workable with China today? Given that its a different China? A peace treaty would be the solution if it works.

basically i and millions of others just want china to leave taiwan the F alone !!

tommy,

If history is correct USA also played a large part to why the KMT was unable to hold onto the Mainland.
Does someone need to kidnap CSB and force him to cooperate with the CCP as well. :slight_smile:

I don’t see why not. PRC has a bunch of treaties with neighboring States that it seems to be honoring.

From another perspective, there has been about 10 years of actual cease fire between the Straits, why not formalize it. Spell out the conditions in black and white so there are no misunderstanding.

Then for the next 50 years you and your millions of like minded isolationist won’t have to worry about a PRC missile. While the rest of us conduct business with peace of mind across the Strait.

I think the peace treaty discussion should be kept on the other thread with a similar name. The OP of this thread meant for it to discuss the blue’s opposition to the arms deal.

So you agree the blues offer no more than the peace treaty idea as an alternative to subs? They wouldn’t survive long as politicians in most other countries then. No one signs peace treaties they mean to keep with nations that unilaterally disarm themselves. Not usually anyway, and when dealing with China, I would say it is inadvisable.

Actually Taiwan needs arms to prevent Japan from encroaching on Taiwan’s fishing grounds. I’m not sure diesel subs are the right tools for the job.

If the greens procure tools to prevent Japan’s Coast Guards from infringing on Taiwanese Fishermen rights, then I would see Blue support of the bill.

I don’t think that’s a very useful “interpretation” (being generous) of Chinese history from WW2. Which “peace treaty” would you be referring to? Besides, pro-democracy activists take heart… the last time the CCP made a go at really cooperating with the KMT… CCP activists ended up being hunted down in the streets of Shanghai, and were executed en masse without trial.

It’s about as relevant as the “rule of thumb” about Russia being the grave-yard wanna-be emperors. Maybe the best way to defeat Osama Bin-Ladin is to give him an European nation, and encouraging him to invade Russia.

So you guys don’t have any alternative suggestions to buying subs, Patriots and sub-hunters?

I assume you believe Taiwan should attempt no preparation against possible Chinese attack. The words of a treaty should be enough then?

I think your political position is built on faith. Are you guys communists?

Speaking of communism, is there any communist country in the world that allows for the existence of other political parties? Isn’t a 'one-party-system basically synonymous with communism? CKS likely learned his lesson, but the current KMT brass seems to have forgotten it.

dearpeter, yes there are communist parties who allow the existance of other parties, but none of them are in the power. Don’t confuse communist parties in democratic countries with the dictatorship-like ones you find in the so-called “socialist and people’s democracies”. I still wonder why there is something called People’s Democracy…

We also know that the Navy needs better ways of securing the borders and the EEZ’s. Now, that has to do with fighting Japan over a rock or preventing cancerigenous hairy crabs from China to arrive here, among other things. About Taiwanese fisherman, I would call it Chinese fisherman in Taiwanese boats.

Anyway my call on the arms deal is that Taiwan has to be equipped with enough weapons to make China think twice before launching an attack (although, as the CCP allready shown a lot of times, more million less million of souls over there doesn’t count much). Alternatives would be to buy some new X-35/Eurofighter typhoon (200 or 300 of them), a B1 bomber squadron, 5000 of the new point-blank shooting system (good to take out enemies without even upping your head), EMP equipped batallions.

The US is pissed off that the Taiwan Legislature wont pass the arms bill. But i do wonder if the US is not over-charging a bit for those arms? And we speak of greedy Taiwanese businessmen? How bout the US wanting to charge a BILLION a copy for those subs. When Germany has sold subs of similar design to others for around 180 million a copy. And Taiwan had paid a then grossly inflated price of 250 million a copy for the two dutch subs? The US subs are basically the same design and capability as the german and dutch subs just mentioned. ONE BILLION a copy does seem exhorbitant. What say you?

NOw the french got quite a bundle when they sold the lafayette ships and got the taiwanese to pay like 60 millions bucks apiece for those (already outdated) Mirage 2000-5 . Thats when the US deal of something like 30 million bucks apiece for the (also purposely downgraded) F16 type A and type B, with dummied down radar and other combat capabilities looked like a relative bargain.

I think when the taiwanese do get around to approving those bills (as i THINK ) they will, it will be very grudgingly as they KNOW they are being reamed up the butthole. But when it comes to keeping Uncle Sam watching out for number one.

Taiwan is like a 16 year old girl (albeit a pretty but naughty one) who lives next door to this big bully (Red China) who she hates. She keeps Red in check with her laowai boyfriend (Uncle Sam). But Uncle Sam wants her to put out to keep him interested :slight_smile: ONe way or anther she is gonna get screwed

:smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

Heh, love the analogy.

We all know the laowei boyfriend isn’t going to marry her; he’s just out to play and satisfy his needs. On the other hand, the pretty girl can’t move… she’s stuck being neighbors with the big bully neighbor for the next billion years or so. Maybe she should think about playing nice, instead of spitting in the face of the earnest but pushy guy next door!

[quote=“cctang”]Heh, love the analogy.

We all know the laowei boyfriend isn’t going to marry her; he’s just out to play and satisfy his needs. On the other hand, the pretty girl can’t move… she’s stuck being neighbors with the big bully neighbor for the next billion years or so. Maybe she should think about playing nice, instead of spitting in the face of the earnest but pushy guy next door![/quote]

But she just wants to grow up and let the world around her know that shes a big girl now and wants to be INDEPENDENT ?? :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: And she wants to P.A.R.T.Y. and have intimate relations with everyone she wants to and not just her cousin Red.

Ugh, sounds like a sure way to be loved by no one.

Her neighbor/cousin, who is a little slow, isn’t even all that picky about her “virtues”. If she wants to play around, play around for now… all’s forgiven in the long run, as long as the two end up together years from now.

Maybe he’ll even let her date a little after marriage!

That sounds romantic. Reminds me of the story of the little slut with half a broken mirror. :laughing: