What's the matter with the greens?

Politics Taiwan Politics
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[quote]http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2006/10/25/2003333277

Premier Su Tseng-chang (蘇貞昌) yesterday mocked Ma’s comments on “peace talks,” saying that Ma sounded like he was actually campaigning to become the “Taiwanese chief executive,” instead of the nation’s next president.

“If he [Ma] negotiates with China, he will be downgrading himself even if he wins the presidential election in 2008. He will be the `Taiwanese chief executive’ instead of the president,” Su said when reporters approached him for comment on Ma’s interview.[/quote]

In this quote we can see that Su is “anti-peace talks” and feels Ma is not Taiwanese enough.

Why are the greens so pro-war these days? It’s not like they have a weapons to even defend Taiwan if they are able to trigger the PRC into attacking Taiwan.

Why are the greens so sensitive on who is Taiwanese enough? Isn’t this qualification of racial purity a throwback into bygone days of yestaryears.

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"Premier Su Tseng-chang (蘇貞昌) yesterday mocked Ma’s comments on “peace talks,” saying that Ma sounded like he was actually campaigning to become the “Taiwanese chief executive,” instead of the nation’s next president.

"“If he [Ma] negotiates with China, he will be downgrading himself even if he wins the presidential election in 2008. He will be the `Taiwanese chief executive’ instead of the president,” Su said when reporters approached him for comment on Ma’s interview.

"In this quote we can see that Su is “anti-peace talks” and feels Ma is not Taiwanese enough.

“Why are the greens so pro-war these days?”

Its called politicking. Where putting down your opponents is par the course. Ma after all is the nominal KMT contender for President in 2008, while Su’s name is being brandied about among the Green camp as a potential. Call it campaigning in advance.

And the fault lies with Ma for allowing people to associate him with pro unification stances. If hes against reunification with China, he hasnt done anything at all to disabuse people of this notion.

Also Su is just being honest about Taiwan’s future should reunification come into being.

“It’s not like they have a weapons to even defend Taiwan if they are able to trigger the PRC into attacking Taiwan…”

As for being pro war, you have got to be joking. Thats an administration the Taiwanese military had seriously considered overthrowing after the 2004 election. The military is heavily Blue aligned.

The administration doesnt stand a chance in getting their backing in ‘triggering’ anything with the PRC. It ll be lucky if they get the armed forces to actually defend Taiwan should the PLA mount an invasion.
And far from being facetious for me to say this, I think if the PLA decided to stage a cross strait manoeuver, it would come after they achieve a ‘consensus’ with the Blue camp and their pals in the armed forces. It will be that much easier for the world to write off Taiwan if no bloodshed is involved, or at least kept at an acceptable low level.

“Why are the greens so sensitive on who is Taiwanese enough? Isn’t this qualification of racial purity a throwback into bygone days of yestaryears.”

This is more of an national/statehood/free people identity, rather than one based on race. And yes you can say most on the Green side are very sensitive about what Taiwan has accomplished, in spite of everything.

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Where does Su say that Ma isn’t Taiwanese enough?

And if he did, the issue is not ‘racial purity’, but Ma’s lack of commitment to Taiwan as a nation. As Chen and the rest of the DPP have said until they are blue in the face, any citizen here is Taiwanese if he or she is committed to Taiwan. When you arrived in Taiwan is irrelevant. This is how Vietnamese-Taiwanese and even American-Taiwanese can be Taiwanese.

The real issue perhaps should be how Taiwanese someone is if he constantly tries to portray Taiwan as a place on the edge of ethnic cleansing, advocates joining the world’s last multi-state empire, and thinks that it would be a good idea to give up Taiwan’s hard-won democracy for the dubious opportunity of participating more fully in Chinese state capitalism.

Wake up!

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I don’t see where Ma is not committed to ROC or democracy. Of course, he is not committed to Taiwan independence, and we all know TI is certainly not the same as “democracy.”

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I agree that Ma is commited to the ROC and democracy. The issue is that he is not committed to Taiwan, which is the touchstone for being Taiwanese, not ethnicity.

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If he is committed to ROC, how can he not be committed to Taiwan? Unless Taiwan is no longer part of the ROC in Green logic.

All of Taiwan’s hard won democracy all occurred in the framework of the ROC, not outside of it.

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I will tell you what the problem with the greens is … they have to deal with people just like you, that’s the problem …

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I don’t see how you can somehow separate Taiwan from ROC or say “Taiwanese” are different from “citizens” of ROC. However, if you insist that there is a separate Taiwan or an unique Taiwanese identity that is different from the rest of the citizens of ROC, then you are talking about some “imaginary” sub-ethnic differences among the Huarens on Taiwan (with the exception of the aborigines and the few Gringos, of course). And, this is indeed the argument of TIers, isn’t it?

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Simple… you just have to consider those who think of themselves Taiwanese and those who think of themselves as Chinese living in Taiwan.

Why isn’t Ma Taiwanese enough? Because he doesn’t believe in a Taiwanese Nationality, but rather in a second Chinese one.

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Does the Taiwanese Nationality deserves it own political State within the ROC?
What about Aboriginal Nationality?

At some point one is going to exclude a signficant portion of the population left on Taiwan following this kind of exclusive identity logic.

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By your reckoning, what percentage of the 23 million people currently residing in Taiwan are “Taiwanese”?

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But don’t you agree that while nobody would force the “Chinese” to be Taiwanese, Taiwanese have been forced to be Chinese for the past 60 years? So, after all this sinonization process, don’t you think that is perfectly natural that a significant percentage of the “sinonized” inhabitants of the island consider themselves as Chinese. Also, the migration of Chinese people with the KMT adds a lot to this number.

I have friends who consider themselves Chinese, and go to China whenever they can to be with their relatives, but are stuck in Taiwan because that is where they work and have property/investments. But they do tell me that if they can find a good job and equivalent life quality in China, they would consider a move.

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Go, Ma, Go. Just ignore the alien greens who excel only in politicking. Simply, what have the greens achieved so far. Without peace talks, there is no peace. Without peace, we continue to dread the day when hell break lose. Will the world still help us when we are all decimated. To those who fear that the blues will sell away the country are simply moronic bankrupt of ideas.

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I guess it is a contest of which idea is more silly - that the ROC still truly exists or TI dreams of ROT.

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beebee, your insight allways amazes us. Care to share some information with us?

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Only thru’ capable leadership who are willing to take a broader view, can we break the impasses that have been blocking us to exist as a normal country. Ma may not be able to perform miracle, no doubt but at least he try. Can the greens do that? Can Su or Chen do that? Or maybe if Mr Boogies has a better idea, we don’t mind putting you in charge. Will that still amaze you?

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I don’t see how you can somehow separate Taiwan from ROC or say “Taiwanese” are different from “citizens” of ROC. However, if you insist that there is a separate Taiwan or an unique Taiwanese identity that is different from the rest of the citizens of ROC, then you are talking about some “imaginary” sub-ethnic differences among the Huarens on Taiwan (with the exception of the aborigines and the few Gringos, of course). And, this is indeed the argument of TIers, isn’t it?[/quote]

In England the only party that accentuates a racial difference and instills a fear of one group to garner votes from another is the facist British National Party. Then again, the DPP did have a television comercial a few years back featuring Hitler. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1437910.stm

I can’t remember which DDP politician had condemed Chen Shui Bian for using local dialect in his to the nation speech . His point was that by doing so, the DPP is alienating itself from a large part of the community and limiting the number of voters that will support them.

Its not surprizing to see the race card played on Ma, but I would hope they will have something more to campaign on than just Ma is a commie here to sell out the Taiwan race. Ma’s offering up a tasty little cookie, he doesn’t even need to give out many details and although it probably is just a pie in the sky, I think the Taiwan people will want to gobble it all up.

But then again talking about campaign promises that are pies in the sky, didn’t the DPP get elected under a campaign promise to clean up corruption? How’s that one going?

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Heh.

Oh, so you do agree there are plenty of Chinese on Taiwan. Good.

I have numerous friends (and now, family!) who consider themselves Chinese, and yet they go to Taiwan whenever they can to be with their relatives. They may live in the mainland or the United States because that’s where their property or investment is, but they love the piece of China they call Taiwan. They will ultimately choose to retire there.

Was there a point to your story?

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By your reckoning, what percentage of the 23 million people currently residing in Taiwan are “Taiwanese”?[/quote]

Probably 90%.

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By your reckoning, what percentage of the 23 million people currently residing in Taiwan are “Taiwanese”?[/quote]

Probably 90%.[/quote]Why would an electorate that is 90% Taiwanese vote for a party, a mayor, and a probable presidential candidate that is not “committed to Taiwan”? This of course, requires a definition of what you meant above when you said “committed to Taiwan”… but I’d like to understand what about Ma separates him from 90% of the people on Taiwan. In your opinion.

And you might want to reference the MAC survey to help make your point. Here’s a link to my thread on the topic:
forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.php?t=55385