What's the TSU doing in Kinmen anyways?

(Just to establish the facts - and I would be amused to see any Taiwan independence supporter deny this - Kinmen is not and has never been part of Taiwan. Kinmen has always been part of Fujian Province and been ruled by the ROC government since 1911 and the Qing and Ming Dynasties of China before that. Kinmen was not part of Japan-administrated Taiwan. )

From the article(s):
http://chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/china-taiwan-relations/2015/05/25/436847/Top-mainland.htm

Yes, also matters concerning all of Taiwan have been discussed, i.e. AIIB membership, but following the grass-roots democracy logic of Taiwan independence supporters, Kinmenese people are the rulers of Kinmen, not persons from Taiwan proper.

However…

Chinapost:

Taipei Times

Yes, bullying protesters is undemocratic behaviour, but Kinmen belongs to Kinmenese and not to some noisy, violent smoke grenade hurling TSU punks from Taiwan. Kinmen is not Taiwan. Kinmen people are not Taiwanese. TSU has never been invited by Kinmenese people. Or to put it into terms pro-independence folks should understand: TSU is to Kinmen like KMT is to Taiwan. Hence, TSU should just shut up about the KMT being some foreign occupying power if they continue such behaviour.

If they’re the same smoke grenades as were used at the May first protest in Taipei, they’re serious things. I saw one policeman almost vomiting after he got a faceful of it, many other people coughing and struggling to breathe until they got clear.

If Koxinga’s Kingdom of Dongning is to be considered as a Taiwan state, which it certainly was based in Tawian, then technically your “never been a part of Taiwan” claim is false.

But I for one am for a fair referendum (majority referendum, without the threat of an armed invasion) to determine Taiwan’s future. As such, if the residents of Kinmen and Matsu vote for leaving Taiwan and joining the PRC, they should be allowed to do so. Since, Kinmen is Matsu are certainly not included as a part of the San Francisco treaty, or the Taiwan Relations Act, when Taiwan finally sheds it’s current illegally occupied status, Kinmen and Matsu should definitely be allowed to have a self-determination referendum.

As for now though, there no reason why political parties from Taiwan shouldn’t exist in Kinmen and Matsu. People from both places have joined political parties based in Taiwan. If TSU shouldn’t be there, what’s KMT’s business of being there?

KMT is a Chinese party, the TSU is a Taiwanese party. Kinmen is not part of Taiwan. Simple.

KMT is a Chinese party, the TSU is a Taiwanese party. Kinmen (Jinmen) is not part of Taiwan. Simple.[/quote]

And what’s your Chinese and Taiwanese definition based on here? :ponder:

KMT is a Chinese party, the TSU is a Taiwanese party. Kinmen (Jinmen) (Jinmen) is not part of Taiwan. Simple.[/quote]

And what’s your Chinese and Taiwanese definition based on here? :ponder:[/quote]

In my argument I am exclusively applying the definitions of the TSU / DPP / the vast majority of the independence camp. I do not apply any definitions used by pro-unification groups.

  1. Taiwan refers to those territories occupied by Japan between 1895 and 1945;
  2. Taiwanese are those persons with abode in these territories since before 1945 and their descendants.

Note that the definition of “New Taiwanese” (= aforementioned people incl. descendants of Mainlanders born on Taiwan after 1945) is not in the DPP’s party charter resolution on the future of Taiwan. Neither is Kinmen shown on the popular flag designed by the World Taiwanese Congress, while Penghu and other outlying islands are with much attention paid to detail. Kinmen is also not mentioned in the Treaty of Shimonoseki or San Francisco Peace Treaty. Thus, from the Taiwan independence perspective, Kinmen is for the purpose of a resolution of Taiwan’s status a distinct political entity and not part of the conflict between Taiwan and China. I would even go so far and say the DPP administration between 2000-2008 exercised colonial oppression over Kinmenese as the Kinmenese had no choice but to accept the result of a vote in a foreign country, that country being Taiwan.

(note that I am arguing entirely from a Taiwan independence camp perspective)

Actually, the only group I know that use the above definition is the TCG, so yeah, if the TCG people are there you would have a point, but the TCG isn’t there.

If by charter resolution on the future of Taiwan is 台灣前途決議文, then actually Kinmen is mentioned in it:

zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%87%BA% … 0.E6.96.87

[quote]台灣是一主權獨立國家,其主權領域僅及於台澎金馬與其附屬島嶼,以及 符合國際法規定之領海與鄰接水域。台灣,固然依目前憲法稱為中華民國, 但與中華人民共和國互不隸屬,任何有關獨立現狀的更動,都必須經由台 灣全體住民以公民投票的方式決定。

Taiwan is a sovereign and independent nation. It’s sovereignty is limited to Taiwan proper, Penghu, Kinmen, Matsu and their adjacent islands, as well as territorial waters and adjacent waters in accordance with international laws. Although the constitution refers to Taiwan as the Republic of China, Taiwan and the People’s Republic of China are mutually unsubjugated from one another. Any alteration to Taiwan’s current independent status must be decided by Taiwan’s residents and citizens in the form of a referendum.[/quote]

I think if that’s included in there, your DPP doesn’t include “New Taiwanese” as Taiwanese statement is pretty much false.

[quote=“hansioux”]

If by charter resolution on the future of Taiwan is 台灣前途決議文, then actually Kinmen (Jinmen) is mentioned in it:

zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%87%BA% … 0.E6.96.87

[quote]台灣是一主權獨立國家,其主權領域僅及於台澎金馬與其附屬島嶼,以及 符合國際法規定之領海與鄰接水域。台灣,固然依目前憲法稱為中華民國, 但與中華人民共和國互不隸屬,任何有關獨立現狀的更動,都必須經由台 灣全體住民以公民投票的方式決定。

Taiwan is a sovereign and independent nation. It’s sovereignty is limited to Taiwan proper, Penghu, Kinmen (Jinmen), Mazu and their adjacent islands, as well as territorial waters and adjacent waters in accordance with international laws. Although the constitution refers to Taiwan as the Republic of China, Taiwan and the People’s Republic of China are mutually unsubjugated from one another. Any alteration to Taiwan’s current independent status must be decided by Taiwan’s residents and citizens in the form of a referendum.[/quote]

I think if that’s included in there, your DPP doesn’t include “New Taiwanese” as Taiwanese statement is pretty much false.[/quote]

It doesn’t say Kinmen people are “Taiwanese”, it merely says Taiwan’s future including Kinmen is to be decided by Taiwan’s residents and citizens in a form of referendum. Hence, if Taiwanese decide so they may as well cede Kinmen to the PRC without the consent of Kinmenese. Even if Kinmenese were to be included in the electorate, with a population of 128,000 residents it wouldn’t make much of a difference. Now how is that usurping stance of the DPP different from the PRC saying “the question of Taiwan is to be decided by all Chinese people”?

[quote=“hsinhai78”][quote=“hansioux”]

If by charter resolution on the future of Taiwan is 台灣前途決議文, then actually Kinmen (Jinmen) (Jinmen) is mentioned in it:

zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%87%BA% … 0.E6.96.87

[quote]台灣是一主權獨立國家,其主權領域僅及於台澎金馬與其附屬島嶼,以及 符合國際法規定之領海與鄰接水域。台灣,固然依目前憲法稱為中華民國, 但與中華人民共和國互不隸屬,任何有關獨立現狀的更動,都必須經由台 灣全體住民以公民投票的方式決定。

Taiwan is a sovereign and independent nation. It’s sovereignty is limited to Taiwan proper, Penghu, Kinmen (Jinmen) (Jinmen), Mazu and their adjacent islands, as well as territorial waters and adjacent waters in accordance with international laws. Although the constitution refers to Taiwan as the Republic of China, Taiwan and the People’s Republic of China are mutually unsubjugated from one another. Any alteration to Taiwan’s current independent status must be decided by Taiwan’s residents and citizens in the form of a referendum.[/quote]

I think if that’s included in there, your DPP doesn’t include “New Taiwanese” as Taiwanese statement is pretty much false.[/quote]

It doesn’t say Kinmen (Jinmen) people are “Taiwanese”, it merely says Taiwan’s future including Kinmen (Jinmen) is to be decided by Taiwan’s residents and citizens in a form of referendum. Hence, if Taiwanese decide so they may as well cede Kinmen (Jinmen) to the PRC without the consent of Kinmenese. Even if Kinmenese were to be included in the electorate, with a population of 128,000 residents it wouldn’t make much of a difference. Now how is that usurping stance of the DPP different from the PRC saying “the question of Taiwan is to be decided by all Chinese people”?[/quote]

It says Taiwan, which under the current governing constitution is referred to as ROC, is a sovereign and independent nation whose territory includes Kinmen and as such people of Kinmen are also Taiwanese.

They’re protesting the MAC meeting with Zhang, and Zhang/China in general. If this meeting were held anywhere else, they would go there too.

But yes, Kinmen should have the choice to decide it’s fate separate of Taiwan. Perhaps when the times comes the handful of deep blues who still cling to unification can move there - a win win for everyone involved, really.

Then how is that different from the claim of the PRC over Taiwan? Kinmense are Taiwanese because “Taiwan” rules the island. That would make Taiwanese Chinese if the PLA decided to invade. Just like that, regardless of what Taiwanese feel they are or the legalities of such a move. The normative power of the factual would trump anything else, e.g. the Treaty of San Francisco or a referendum on Taiwan’s future. You are contradicting your own long-established (at least on Forumosa) position regarding Taiwanese independence.

You either disagree with China’s claim over Taiwan and at the same time condemn the meddling of the TSU in Kinmen’s affairs OR it’s a free for all. You cannot have it both.

Then how is that different from the claim of the PRC over Taiwan? Kinmense are Taiwanese because “Taiwan” rules the island. That would make Taiwanese Chinese if the PLA decided to invade. Just like that, regardless of what Taiwanese feel they are or the legalities of such a move. [/quote]

How are they different?

When did Taiwan invade Kinmen?

Also, I’ve stated in my first reply that we need to correct the broken KMT sponsored referendum law, and ensure referendum is functional, and make both national and local referendum a reality.

If Taiwan can shed itself of the ROC shackles, Taiwan would allow Kinmen and Mazu to decide whether or not to stay with a democratic Taiwan or join the PRC. That’s the difference.

Then how is that different from the claim of the PRC over Taiwan? Kinmense are Taiwanese because “Taiwan” rules the island. That would make Taiwanese Chinese if the PLA decided to invade. Just like that, regardless of what Taiwanese feel they are or the legalities of such a move. The normative power of the factual would trump anything else, e.g. the Treaty of San Francisco or a referendum on Taiwan’s future. You are contradicting your own long-established (at least on Forumosa) position regarding Taiwanese independence.

You either disagree with China’s claim over Taiwan and at the same time condemn the meddling of the TSU in Kinmen (Jinmen)'s affairs OR it’s a free for all. You cannot have it both.[/quote]

This is not Kinmen affairs, though. Hsia is meeting Zhang in his capacity as MAC head and representing the RoC government. It obviously affects Taiwan and framing it as an internal affair only relevant to Kinmen because it happens to be taking place there is at best specious and at worst stupid.

There is no need for Taiwan to invade Kinmen. Considering that the government in Taipei exercises force over Kinmen and 80% of the electorate are Benshengren there is no way Kinmenese can pursue their own interests without the consent of the majority of Benshengren. If Kinmenese wants to open a casino they must first ask a government that was elected by Taiwanese and not Kinmenese.

Besides you have many times voiced your opposition against pro-unification supporters (and some Mainland tourists) violently protesting in front of Taipei 101, how can you then condone what the TSU did in Kinmen? Unless of course you believe Taiwanese (and the advantgarde of the Taiwanese state = TSU) have sovereignty over Kinmen. Or is sovereignty only a dimension in pseudo-legal ramblings on mid-20th Century treaties?

You may say Taiwan needs to rid itself from the ROC and in that process Kinmen may then be allowed by Taiwanese choose its future.
I say Kinmen must rid itself from the beetle nut spitting, green plate scooter riding, blue slippers wearing redneck electorate that votes for DPP.
Why should Kinmen be caught in a conflict between Taiwan proper and Mainland China? Why should Kinmenese limit their economic development just because a DPP president might decide to scrap visa on arrival privileges for Mainlanders (the DPP already feels uneasy about that now) ? If Mainlanders are foreigners in Taiwan, then Taiwanese are foreigners in Kinmen. Lovely green logic, just that now Taiwanese get the short end of the stick and you dear hansioux try to divert the argument as much as you can.

It’s always amusing to see your racist disdain for BSR rear it’s head. Why not just move to China if you believe the culture and people are far more civilized there? No one will stop you.

Taiwan can no more shed the ROC shackles than Japan can shed themselves of the USA’s shackles; both Taiwan and Japan are free and open democracies today due to the concerted efforts of the Allied powers against the Axis powers. Both the Japanese and the Taiwanese paid dearly, however, the citizens of both countries today are better for it.

As Americans, the pro-TI won WWII. As benshen Taiwanese, they lost WWII. I definitely think there is a cognitive disconnect going on.

The Kimenese won WWII. The Taiwanese lost WWII. Why should the Kinmenese join the PRC when it was they that won the right for their government, the Republic of China, to rule?

[quote=“Dirt”]As Americans, the pro-TI won WWII. As benshen Taiwanese, they lost WWII. I definitely think there is a cognitive disconnect going on.
[/quote]

I think you have that backwards, but I am not even sure what you are trying to say.

I don’t get Dirt and Hsinhai’s logic, and it has become impossible to even continue the discussion since I have no idea what both of you are getting at and where to even continue the discussion…

[quote=“hansioux”][quote=“Dirt”]As Americans, the pro-TI won WWII. As benshen Taiwanese, they lost WWII. I definitely think there is a cognitive disconnect going on.
[/quote]

I think you have that backwards, but I am not even sure what you are trying to say.

I don’t get Dirt and Xinhai’s logic, and it has become impossible to even continue the discussion since I have no idea what both of you are getting at and where to even continue the discussion…[/quote]

Backwards? How so? Please elaborate.

[quote=“Dirt”][quote=“hansioux”][quote=“Dirt”]As Americans, the pro-TI won WWII. As benshen Taiwanese, they lost WWII. I definitely think there is a cognitive disconnect going on.
[/quote]

I think you have that backwards, but I am not even sure what you are trying to say.

I don’t get Dirt and Xinhai’s logic, and it has become impossible to even continue the discussion since I have no idea what both of you are getting at and where to even continue the discussion…[/quote]

Backwards? How so? Please elaborate.[/quote]

Actually since I don’t know what you were getting at, I don’t know how to elaborate. All I can say is, for Taiwan’s Early-immigrant population of that generation, they were fully aware that they lost WW2. Taiwan was a colony of the Japan empire, and as such Taiwanese lost the war along with the Japanese.

A large portion of the Taiwanese population at the time were glad to get rid of Japan. Within those population, some have fought for independence all along, some have simply wanted democracy anyway they could get it, some fantasized about not being discriminated against under Chinese control, and some wanted communism here on the island. Even for these people, they knew full well they lost the war, as the shortage of food, resources, constant American bombing seriously disrupted Taiwan’s society and infrastructure.

So unless you are talking about a handful of Taiwanese who left Taiwan before the war began and joined KMT in China, I don’t see that many Taiwanese at the time would consider they’ve won the war.

On the other hand, later Taiwanese Early-immigrants who grew up under KMT brainwashing and didn’t have the will to learn about the facts about history could get extremely confused. Many who grew up under that era would say the Japanese bombed Taiwan when asked about who bombed Taiwan during WW2. Those are probably the most significant portion of the current Taiwan Early-immigrants who would say Taiwan was on the winning side of WW2.