When cultures clash... (What Taiwaner said)


#1


[color=red]Maoman here. I have reposted Taiwaner’s original comments on this thread after he deleted them. He was either trolling or displaying a spectacularly low level of intelligence when he first posted, and due to either shame or spite later decided to delete all of his posts in this thread, replacing them with blank space, thus rendering the responses to his asinine posts meaningless. In order to make sense of this thread, I have decided to restore his original posts.[/color]
:sunglasses:

This is not related to the “Twilight” thread. So I thought I’d start
a new one…

Okay, Tigerman:

Gotta hand it to you, you are a rarity. You are certainly not the typical liberal, left-leaning Americans I had in mind. :slight_smile:

The point is simply that there are cultural gaps that cannot be bridged, and there are times one simply must learn to respect the cultural differences. And mind you, not all things exported from the western countries are good and decent. This Swedish show featuring a farting contest is the first to come to mind :stuck_out_tongue: What if kids in Taiwan all suddenly decide that farting in public is cool? Wouldn’t that pose a major environmental hazard?

Apology for my pathetic attempt at being humorous here. :stuck_out_tongue: Anyhow, my point is just that there are many western ideologies (ie. the American brand of feminism, and the European brand of sexual liberation) that I consider as nothing more than pure garbages! Do I have the rights to reject them as I see fit and say NO to them when someone tries to ram them down my throat?

Let me give you another example.

For instance, a westerner might look at a hooded Muslim woman and considered the practice of requiring women to wear hoods a major human right violation. Most likely, they would then take it upon themselves to start a human right crusade in order to correct what they deemed as “imperfections” in the culture. When they thought they were doing the world a favor, they were surprised to find that the efforts were met with resentment.

What do you think the problem is? Is it a tradition that should be respected or a mistake that needed to be corrected? :slight_smile: Do people have rights to reject changes they do not like? Do people have rights to ask to be left alone and to hold on to the tradition they deem good and decent? What is the proper course of action when one wishes to address faults and problems they see in a culture?

I would not attempt to answer them here. I’m merely suggesting that there are things that should be kept in mind when dealing with a new culture. Oh, I can definitely give many more good examples, but I’d rather not do that. As elaboration will take time, and I’m sure you can see what I’m getting at.

Any insight will be appreciated.

PS: I had to edit out some of my earlier posts as I didn’t want to give the wrong impression that I was anti-western or anti-America. which I can assure you is not the case. I love America, and I love American brand of bad taste! Go Barney! Go N*Sink & Buttstreet Boyz!!


#2

A westerner might look at a hooded Muslim woman and think "Hmm, if that woman lived in a place where Islamic law was practiced she could be stoned to death if she ever exposed her face, and she would have no legal recourse. A westerner might also wonder if she and her daughters had had their genitalia mutilated so that no pleasure would be felt during intercourse, thus ensuring their faithfulness. (This is quite common in Muslim populations in North Africa). A westerner might wonder if she was permitted by law in her native land to drive a car, educate her daughters, vote and have access to the same medical care that men do. That’s what I wonder.

You need to ask yourself if the hypothetical woman in question has the right to refuse or accept change. If she does, well then fine. If she doesn’t, I say it’s a tradition ripe for change. Not all cultures are equal.


#3

I disagree on both counts. I do not respect the aspect of any culture that condones, for instance, honor killings, forced female genital mutilation, or any other type of oppression of women. I will not learn to “respect” that as merely a cultural gap.

True for sure. Why is it that so many who import such aspects of western culture find it worthy of import and later imitation?

Is this an attempt to blame public farting on the west? I find Taiwanese people extremely liberal when it comes to farting in public. Please don’t attempt to label this another western import.:wink:

Certainly, if someone is trying that. But I ask you again, who is trying to ram these ideologies down your throat?

Resentment from whom? My guess is that in cultures where fundamental Islamic values and law regulate societal behavior, the women are not often asked for their opinion regarding the rules that restrict and limit them.

As I stated above, cultures with traditions that oppress, and abuse women, are not worthy of my respect. My opinion.

But you asked:

I think that whether they want to have their genitalia mutilated, be stoned to death or drowned to save the honor their family, or to be burned with kerosene oil if their mother-in-law is not satisfied with the dowry it should be a matter for the women to decide, rather than for the men. Don’t you?

I am well aware of the differences between varying cultures. But I still believe that some cultures are inferior to others, per my examples above given. I have no qualms about saying so, either.

Nope. I still don’t understand. :?

I’m way conservative on some things, and fairly liberal on others.

I don’t get the feeling that you are anti-American or anti-western from your posts and I’m very happy that you are posting your opinions and ideas here. They are interesting.


#4

Your point can be easily countered with this simple argument–

Capital punishment has been abolished in several states in USA. Yet, some form of it (ie. eletric chair used by Texas and lethal injection used by Florida) still exists in many parts of the country. Now pray tell, would any of you look at it and claim it to be a human right violation? Certainly not, right? After all, you reckon it as a proper punishment for someone who has committed a crime that’s so henious that should be considered punishable by death.

If capital punishment were to be considered a human right violation, then the United of States of America would probably be the worst human rights record holder of them all-- the number of executions carried out by USA since 1977 is close to 1000! Tell me, what’s the difference between death by lethal injection and stoning someone to death? Do you feel that lethal injection or electric chair is more acceptable simply because it is a more humane way of killing a person? And who are you to decide what should be considered as punishable by death? I can very well make a strong case that farting is so hazardous to the environment that it should be considered punishable by death. :slight_smile:

Also, I’m not sure if you’re aware of this fact or not. Adultery is considered a crime by many Asian countries (The law gives the husband/wife the right to ask for divorce solely based on the fact that his/her spouse has committed adultery), yet it’s considered perfectly ‘legal’ by most if not all of European nations. So as you can see, nothing is painted strictly in black and white. Often times, what we hold as truths are merely subjective. (or as Plato called it, the Objective Truth). What you’re saying so far only tells me that Muslims place a high value on loyalty/faithfulness (above everything else), and they consider adultery a crime punishable by death. Any more question? :slight_smile:

First off, I would like to set the facts straight.

I’m not sure about North African nations, but I’ve heard that in some Islamic Eastern European nations (namely, Chechenya, Azerbajan, Armenia… etc), the practice of surgically removing a girl’s clitoris is only done to girls from wealthier families. (I’m just quoting facts off the top of my head, so I could be wrong.) Also, to the best of my knowledge, the clitoris is cut partially as to deprive a woman pleasure she would’ve had during masturbation. However, the woman would still be able to experience orgasm during sexual intercourse. (I can assure you that it’s really not that bad. I’m sure the woman can work it out with the
help of a dildo if she so desires an orgy during masturbation.) So for all intents and purposes, circumcision of Muslim women as performed by the Muslim clergy should be considered a religious ritual just like circumcision the Jews perform on little boys.

If circumcision of boys is acceptable, why not circumcision of women?

Well, I’m also concerned with the fact that immigrants with no work permits are not allowed to work in USA and Europe, and the fact that many illegal immigrants do not receive the same level of welfare benefits and care from the government(s) as any other law-biding citizens that are needed to provide an acceptable living condition for their families. I’m also concerned with the fact that no quota has been established to guarantee the number of female cabinet members in USA and Europe, and the fact that there has never been a woman president in the entire history of USA. I’m also concerned with the fact that no law has been drafted to provide reparation to African-Americans who happen to be descents of slaves. (Okay, this is getting ridiculous. I think I’ll stop here.)

Shall I go on? :slight_smile:

So I guess I’ll simply label you American and European males as biggots then? :slight_smile:


#5

Just wanna make one last comment b4 I go to bed. (Also plz read my response to Maoman above)

Well, I suppose I can also tell you that whether a person should be convicted of a crime or not or whether he should be executed by lethal injection/electric chair should be decided by the offender alone and not the jury/judge/laws?

Second — Are you a Muslim woman by any chance? :slight_smile: How do you know where a Muslim woman’s opinion on this matter lies? Perhaps they all feel adultery is a crime punishable by death. Have you considered the possibility? Please give proof that shows majority of Muslim women does not consider adultery a crime punishable by death.

Thank you. I have no further comment.


#6

Wrong. I consider the death penalty to be a major human rights violation

Whaaaat? You mean Pluto, right? Your application of philosophy is so Mickey Mouse, you’re Goofy. :laughing:

Yeah, one. What the heck are you on about? I’m talking about the disenfranchisement of half the population of a significant portion of the Muslim world, and you’re talking about “a high value on loyalty/faithfulness”. Millions of Muslim women have no voice in their own societies.

:shock: Taiwaner, YOU can assure ME that female circumcision isn’t really all that bad :!: :?: :!: :?: What planet are you from son?

From your posts I gather that you haven’t had a lot of experience with the fairer sex - A dildo? Right - that’s what all the Sudanese women line up for after they’ve had their clitoris removed - a 12 inch battery operated studded mamba tickler. And comparing the circumcision of a male foreskin to a female circumcision is really beyond the pale. You need some female friends to talk some sense into you.
(BTW, I am against male circumcision too.)

Of course you realize that immigrants with no work permits are not permitted to work in any country in the world.

Well fei hua. Maybe because they’re illegal, and not law-abiding citizens. :unamused:

On the other hand, there’s no law against it, unlike most countries in the Middle East. In fact, women have greater freedom of choice and opportunity in western countries than they do anywhere else.

Nor have any reparations been made by cultures practising slavery as recently as 60 years ago, as was the case with Japan. Hell, never mind reparations, the Japanese won’t even admit their historical sins. :imp: I’m not sure that justice lies in reparations, anyway. It might, but surely cognizance of past injustices would be a worthy first step, would it not? There’s no shortage of western introspection and reflection on our historical sins. There is a marked paucity of it elsewhere in the world.

Please don’t. You’re just making yourself look stupid. In fact, I’m embarrassed that I’m even dignifying the idiocy of your statements with a response. :blush:

Better do it behind their backs or while they’re sleeping, :stuck_out_tongue: unless you want the whole world to know your mental shortcomings.


#7

Taiwaner,
I think you are missing the point completely. It is late so I will try to break this down quickly. First, there is no such thing as a distinct or discrete culture, be it American, Chinese, Arab or otherwise. Even if there is a tribe in some rain forest somewhere that has no exposure to the modern world, I am willing to bet that if you go back far enough in that tribe’s history, it had interaction with other peoples that give it some kind of cultural connection with the rest of humanity. All of humanity interacts in countless ways that are reflected in culture.
The reality is that there is a vast changing human culture that has differences among each individual, nation, religion and numerous other categories. How does culture come about? Basically, individuals do things and agree, share, kill, argue, become habituated, discuss, cajole and a million other verbs with other individuals and temporary consensus is reached consciously or unconsciously among groups of people ranging in size between 2 and 6 billion or so. Every time you make a choice or do something, you influence human culture to some extent, as does everyone else.
The problem with relativism is that it is depressing and fatalistic. In a nutshell, it means that things change, but that changes are arbitrary and nothing evolves or improves since nothing is better than anything else. Our descendents and their society will be different than us but no better. The idea of cultural or societal evolution is one big flim-flam with relativism.
The alternative to this philosophy is that things can improve and humanity can evolve. There is a path to some kind of secular, intellectual and/or spiritual enlightenment. Simply put, we all prefer one thing to another thing, one idea to another idea, one system to another system. Through human interaction in all its passive and agressive forms, we reach temporary consesuses that continue to evolve and move forward.
Now, what does all this crap have to do with this thread? Well, it means that you or I can and should criticize the laws, morals or ways things are done in a certain country, religion or region. We should bitch and moan, write petitions, sing songs, make movies or whatever we want. Even if we do nothing intentional, we will still play a role in culture somehow. Many things (hopefully everything) can be improved in my country, my family and myself. They will be improved only through interaction with other people. (Damn, I really have to go to bed.) What I am saying is that if people are complaining about something, agree, disagree or ignore them. To say that they should not make the point because they are not perfect makes no sense since none of us is perfect. Also, isn’t our status as fellow humans more important that nationality or race. I would say we owe it to each other to criticize and question each other.
I am well aware that this is not the most coherent argument, but I am tired and don’t have time to reread it.

One last thing Taiwaner, I would be careful getting into arguments about sexual mores and customs and laws, because, based on your posts, I think you have many assumptions that are erroneous and misguided. With this paragragh, you show that you have very little understanding of female sexuality or physiology. Please buy a book for the sake of your wife or girlfriend. Finally, I think it would be much easier to compare male and female circumcision if the head of a male’s penis was cut off rather than just the foreskin.

[quote]I’m not sure about North African nations, but I’ve heard that in some Islamic Eastern European nations (namely, Chechenya, Azerbajan, Armenia… etc), the practice of surgically removing a girl’s clitoris is only done to girls from wealthier families. (I’m just quoting facts off the top of my head, so I could be wrong.) Also, to the best of my knowledge, the clitoris is cut partially as to deprive a woman pleasure she would’ve had during masturbation. However, the woman would still be able to experience orgasm during sexual intercourse. (I can assure you that it’s really not that bad. I’m sure the woman can work it out with the help of a dildo if she so desires an orgy during masturbation.) So for all intents and purposes, circumcision of Muslim women as performed by the Muslim clergy should be considered a religious ritual just like circumcision the Jews perform on little boys.

If circumcision of boys is acceptable, why not circumcision of women? [/quote]


#8

Maoman, read on, cuz I have a challenge for you.


Sorry to break it to you, Maoman, but all your posts have served to show is how prejudicial and bigoted you are.

Prejudicial-- in that, insofar as the opinions are unequivocally expressed, little convincing evidence is offered to back them up.

Bigoted-- in that, based on responses to contrary views, you have shown yourself to be obstinately and intolerantly devoted to your opinions and prejudices.

You said:

I’ll reiterate my points for your edification. Apparently, there is something seriously wrong with your reading ability. Time to brush up on English too, huh?

1.In most of the cases, clitoris is not completely removed. (At least that’s how it is done in Eastern Europe as I was told.)
2.Partially-cut clitoris does still work
3.How do I know all this? a) I have an Armenian/Chechen friend who got cut (and we had some rather interesting discussions on this topic),
b)I’ve done considerable amount of research on this topic. (ie. based on information I gathered from Muslim, medical websites… etc).

Now care to divulge your sources of information so we can compare notes?

I hereby challenge you to prove otherwise or offer your apology on this thread!

The dildo remark was sorta meant to be a joke and was inconsiderate of me, and I offer my apology. But do you really know the difference between testicles and clitoris?

  1. Castration of men leads to inability to procreate in males; yet your so-called “genitalia mutilation” does not lead to the same effect.
  2. Testicles -> clitoris? or penis -> clitoris? I stand by my analogy. I challenge you to prove me wrong.
  3. As a student of biology, I’m fully capable of carrying out an inteligent debate on this subject. So bring it on!

It was a honest spelling error. For god’s sake, it was 2 o’clock in the morning. So how about cutting me some slack and stopped being so picky?


#9

Taiwaner,

I don’t even want to get into some of your arguments which are simply too silly to even go into, Yeah, adultry may be illegal in Taiwan, but seems like a whole lot of it goes on… and so on, but

I do want to educate you a bit about your inaccuracies regarding female genital mutilation.

First, I do not believe in circumcision for either sex, however, male circumcision does not come close to the pain and trauma that is associated with Female circumcision.

Here is just a little quote for you from Religious Tolerance.org… that describes the processes of female circumcision…

"Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) is practiced in many forms:

Sunna circumcision in which the tip of the clitoris and/or its covering (prepuce) are removed.

Clitoridectomy where the entire clitoris, the prepuce and adjacent labia are removed.

Infibulation (a.k.a. Pharaonic circumcision) which is a clitoridectomy followed by sewing up of the vulva. A small opening is left to allow urine and menstrual blood to pass. A second operation is done later in life to reverse some of the damage. In some cultures, the woman is cut open by her husband on their wedding night with a double edged dagger. She may be sewn up again if her husband leaves on a long trip.

Because of poverty and lack of medical facilities, the procedure is frequently done under less than hygienic conditions, and often without anesthetic by other than medically trained personnel. Anesthesia is rarely used. Razor blades, knives or scissors are usually the instruments used. The In the rural Mossi areas of Burkina Faso, group female circumcisions are scheduled every three years in many villages. Girls aged from 5 to 8 are assembled by their mothers into groups of up to 20. The circumcision “uses a knife-like instrument, the barga, reserved specifically for this purpose; after each operation she simply wipes the knife on a piece of cloth, sometimes rinsing it in water first.” In some areas of Africa, FGM is delayed until two months before a woman gives birth. This practice is based on the belief that the baby will die if she/he comes into contact with their mother’s clitoris during birth. We are unaware of any medical evidence to support this belief.

Side effects of the operation can include: hemorrhage, shock, painful scars, keloid formation, labial adherences, clitoral cysts, chronic urinary infection, and chronic pelvic infections. Later in life, it can cause kidney stones, sterility, sexual dysfunction, depression, and various gynecological and obstetric problems. "

The article goes on further to state reasons for FGM

"Why it is Done?

The justification for the operation appears to be largely grounded in a desire to terminate or reduce feelings of sexual arousal in women so that they will be much less likely to engage in pre-marital intercourse or adultery. The clitoris holds a massive number of nerve endings, and generates feelings of sexual arousal when stimulated.

Uncircumcised women in countries where FGM is normally performed have difficulty finding a marriage partner. Men typically prefer a circumcised wife because they are considered more likely to be faithful. Other claims in support of FGM are:

The clitoris is dangerous and must be removed for health reasons. Some believe that it is a poisonous organ, that can cause a man to sicken or die if contacted by a man’s penis. Others believe that men can become impotent by contacting a clitoris, or that a baby will be hydrocephalic (born with excess cranial fluid) if its head contacts the clitoris during birth.

Some believe that the milk of the mother will become poisonous if her clitoris touches the baby during childbirth.

Bad genital odors can only be eliminated by removing the clitoris and labia minora.

FGM prevents vaginal cancer.

An unmodified clitoris can lead to masturbation or lesbianism.

FGM prevents nervousness from developing in girls and women.

FGM prevents the face from turning yellow.

FGM makes a woman’s face more beautiful.

If FGM is not done, older men may not be able to match their wives’ sex drive and may have to resort to illegal stimulating drugs.

An intact clitoris generates sexual arousal in women which can cause neuroses if repressed. "

Yeah, these seem like good reasons to me… how about you Taiwaner? Willing to do this to your daughter?

For more education go see this site…

religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm

I think the best comparison of a similar practice in males would be that of the Eunuch… do you think all the Eunuch needs is a good lap dance to get off… or is it ok to CASTRATE a man, remove his testicles and perhaps even his penis? That is what Female Circumcision can be compared too, not a male circumcision. Again, would you make your son a Eunuch? Would you do this to your daughter? Would you really want your sexual partner to be in PAIN every time you have intercourse? Or, is cutting her open with a knife on your wedding night acceptable “cultural” differences? What about women who die in Child birth due to FGM? The baby is unable to get through the natural birth canal due to scarring and the fact the labia has been sewn shut?

Finally, Taiwaner, your statement that the woman can still find sexual pleasure is so so very sad…

if you think that women who have had a female circumcision can just go get a dildo to get off… dude, I assure you, you have LOTS to learn about the other gender and sex. Or do you subscribe to the theory :imp: , well I got off… thanks for the ride!?

Seriously, writing off female genital mutilation and the subjection of women, as a


#10

Again, Sharky, please read my previous post (I gathered that you had not read my latest post b4 you hit the post button). I believe you have completely missed the point–

These are the points Maoman and I disagreed on (below I offer my own version):

1.In most of the cases, clitoris is not completely removed. (At least that’s how it is done in Eastern Europe as I was told.)
2.Partially-cut clitoris does still work.
3.How do I know all this? a) I have an Armenian/Chechen friend who got cut (and we had some rather interesting discussions on this topic), b)I’ve done considerable amount of research on this topic. (ie. based on information I gathered from Muslim, medical websites… etc).
Now care to divulge your sources of information so we can compare notes?

Are they factually correct? If so, then I believe Maoman owes me an apology.

1.I have specifically mentioned in my post that the cases I refered to were strictly Eastern European. (which I believe is what you refered to as “Sunna circumcision” in your post).
2.I was also under the impression that in Eastern Europe, ‘Sunna circumcision’ is only performed by certified physicians under clinical environments.
3.From what I gathered, Eastern European women of Islamic faith seem to have different experience with circumcision from North African women.

Again, I ask you to provide proof to disprove my theory as I feel the burden of proof lies on you, Maoman.

PS: Getting too emotional/personal is not good for any debate.


#11

I’ve read some of your comments on Sunnah. I don’t like the term FGM, especially the word “mutilation”. I’m a catholic Catholic for those who know what small cap catholic means. I also have myself circumcized back in Indonesia. I went to the doctor. Shaved the hair. They gave me anesthesia and performed the circumsition on me. I have to rest for 2 weeks because of the pain. But after I recovered, it feel great. No longer “baopi.” No dirt and it certainly works better.

I also agree with Moslem sunnah on females. I think removal of the prepuce is a common practise in Indonesia. Of course, the overseas Chinese there doesn’t see eye to eye with the Moslem regarding circumsition. Most of the Chinese were not circumcized in Indonesia. In Taiwan, I heard that circumsition is also quite common to males. It’s healthier.

Still up and running,

ax


#12

[color=blue]Please take heed to Anton’s comment. Here’s a guy who actually underwent Sunnah. It just shows how prejudicial and bigoted you all are! I bet none of you knows anyone who underwent circumcision personally, yet you had the balls to spew out facts as truths?? Pathetic is all it is…
CASE CLOSED[/color]


#13

Oh my good lord in heaven! Should’ve known better than to get involved with this one.


#14

Taiwaner,

We’re not myopic. So please use smaller fonts. If you use the effect to yell at us. We’re not deaf either:)

ax


#15

[quote]Seriously, writing off female genital mutilation and the subjection of women, as a cultural difference is simply na


#16

[b]I repeat I support neither!!

RE-READ all the POSTS for heaven’s sake!![/b]


#17

Taiwaner,
Just out of morbid curiousity, would you be so kind as to state in a sentence or two just what your position is? I reread the previous posts in the name of God and Heaven, but I must confess that my pathetic, bigoted brain got in the way of my full understanding.


#18

I wish to state for the record that, I submit the following paragraphs as factual evidences, and nothing more:

[quote]1. In most of the cases, clitoris is not completely removed. (At least
that’s how it is done in Eastern Europe as I was told.)
2. Partially-cut clitoris does still work.
3. How do I know all this? a) I have an Armenian/Chechen friend who got
cut (and we had some rather interesting discussions on this topic),
b)I’ve done considerable amount of research on this topic. (ie. based on
information I gathered from Muslim, medical websites… etc). Now care
to divulge your sources of information so we can compare notes?

1.I have specifically mentioned in my post that the cases I refered to were strictly Eastern European. (which I believe is what you refered to as “Sunna circumcision” in your post).
2.I was also under the impression that in Eastern Europe, ‘Sunna circumcision’ is only performed by certified physicians under clinical environments.
3.From what I gathered, Eastern European women of Islamic faith seem to have different experience with circumcision from North African women.

First off, I would like to set the facts straight. I’m not sure about North African nations, but I’ve heard that in some Islamic Eastern European nations (namely, Chechenya, Azerbajan, Armenia… etc), the practice of surgically removing a girl’s clitoris is only done to girls from wealthier families. (I’m just quoting facts off the top of my head, so I could be wrong.) Also, to the best of my knowledge, the clitoris is cut partially as to deprive a woman pleasure she would’ve had during masturbation. However, the woman would still be able to experience orgasm during sexual intercourse. (I can assure you that it’s really not that bad. I 'm sure the woman can work it out with the help of a dildo if she so desires an orgy during masturbation.)[/quote]

Now, you let your emotion get in the way of a debate, Maoman and Sharky. Again, as I repeat, I have not expressed my support for genital mutilation at any point in my posts. I simply wrote up what I know and submitted them as factual evidences. Are they factually correct? That was the only thing I ask for. And I believe you seriously owe me an apology.

[b]Where do I stand? Like I said, I do not condone the practice of gential mutilation. Yet I believe that the effect of such practice has been repeatedly overstated by the media and your so-called crusaders take-on-the-world types (as Anton can attest).

If you cannot look at your source critically, then you are one of those mindless zombie types… It’s your problem, not mine![/b]


#19

Enough already.


#20

I don’t get his point either. I do wonder he would take such a stand if he were posting under his real name. My guess is not. He seems to be defending the right of “cultural quirks” to exist even though such quirks may in fact be universally condemned as breaches of human rights or lead to breaches of human rights.

Report Card:
F – See me after class.