When is the western world going to wake up and smell the cordite

The problem with numbnuts beliefs are that he can’t see the difference between an Islamic radical and normal Muslim. This would be like saying that Mormons share the same beliefs as Warren Jeffs or that Christians share the same beliefs as Eric Rudolph (1996 Olympic bomber). If you wanted to say that Islamic radicals are one of the biggest threats in the world that is one thing but to call Islam an evil religion is a sign of ignorance.

I do call a major part of Islam dangerously evil. The danger is also that a normal Muslim can easily be changed into a violent, misogynistic fanatic, just by following the tenets of the Quran.

Hitchens and others have made this obvious: the punishment against apostasy, the punishment for unbelievers, etc. The Book is a medieval monstrosity. Normal Muslims, ie people, are at least moderated by the modern values of civilisation by 20th century standards.

I do call a major part of Islam dangerously evil. The danger is also that a normal Muslim can easily be changed into a violent, misogynistic fanatic, just by following the tenets of the Quran.

Hitchens and others have made this obvious: the punishment against apostasy, the punishment for unbelievers, etc. The Book is a medieval monstrosity. Normal Muslims, ie people, are at least moderated by the modern values of civilisation by 20th century standards.[/quote]

Don’t tell me that a religion who promises a man who martyrs himself the reward of raping 72 virgins (unless you think Allah makes them fall in love with him… and if so, what does that say about that god) in Heaven isn’t somehow twisted and perverse?

I do call a major part of Islam dangerously evil. The danger is also that a normal Muslim can easily be changed into a violent, misogynistic fanatic, just by following the tenets of the Quran.

Hitchens and others have made this obvious: the punishment against apostasy, the punishment for unbelievers, etc. The Book is a medieval monstrosity. Normal Muslims, ie people, are at least moderated by the modern values of civilisation by 20th century standards.[/quote]

Don’t tell me that a religion who promises a man who martyrs himself the reward of raping 72 virgins (unless you think Allah makes them fall in love with him… and if so, what does that say about that god) in Heaven isn’t somehow twisted and perverse?[/quote]

It doesn’t promise 72 virgins. justislam.co.uk/product.php?products_id=216

All religions are equally silly when you get down to it. But some have more of a track record of blowing shit up in the name of their religion than others. That much is true.

But who is to say that Boston bombings were the work of religious nutters? no one knows yet.

I do call a major part of Islam dangerously evil. The danger is also that a normal Muslim can easily be changed into a violent, misogynistic fanatic, just by following the tenets of the Quran.

Hitchens and others have made this obvious: the punishment against apostasy, the punishment for unbelievers, etc. The Book is a medieval monstrosity. Normal Muslims, ie people, are at least moderated by the modern values of civilisation by 20th century standards.[/quote]

Don’t tell me that a religion who promises a man who martyrs himself the reward of raping 72 virgins (unless you think Allah makes them fall in love with him… and if so, what does that say about that god) in Heaven isn’t somehow twisted and perverse?[/quote]

It doesn’t promise 72 virgins. justislam.co.uk/product.php?products_id=216[/quote]

uh… your link states that the promise (of women) is embellished by the Hadith.… which is a accepted canon of Islam together with the Koran. Nice try.

either way, it promises maidens in heaven. doesn’t matter if it’s 1 or 72. still rape.

just to be clear, the hadith are sayings attributed to Muhammed… so don’t tell me that’s not canon.

cut and paste from some sunni forum:

Some texts:

[quote]

  1. Al-Miqdam ibn Ma`dikarb said, Allah be well-pleased with him: The Messenger of Allah said, upon him blessings and peace:

“For the Shahid in the Divine presence there will be six qualities: [1] he will be forgiven from the first moment his blood is spilled; [2] he shall see his seat in Paradise and be protected against the punishment of the grave; [3] he shall be safe from the Greatest Terror [the rising of the dead]; [4] he shall be crowned with the diadem of dignity, one ruby of which is worth more than the entire world and its contents; [5] he shall be coupled with seventy-two spouses from the wide-eyed maidens of Paradise; and [6] he shall be granted to intercede for seventy of his relatives.” Ahmad and al-Tirmidhi narrated it and the latter said: “This is a fair, sound, single-chained hadith” (hasan sahih gharib).

  1. Anas said, Allah be well-pleased with him: The Messenger of Allah said, upon him blessings and peace:

“The servant in Paradise shall be married with seventy wives.” Someone said, “Messenger of Allah, can he bear it?” He said: “He will be given strength for a hundred.” Abu Nuaym in Sifat al-Janna, al-Uqayli in the Du`afa’, and al-Bazzar in his Musnad.

2a. From Zayd ibn Arqam, Allah be well-pleased with him, when an incredulous Jew or Christian asked the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace, “Are you claiming that a man will eat and drink in Paradise??” He replied: “Yes, by the One in Whose hand is my soul, and each of them will be given the strength of a hundred men in his eating, drinking, coitus, and pleasure.” Ahmad, al-Nasa’i in the Sunan al-Kubra, Ibn Abi Shayba, Ibn Hibban, and al-Hakim who declared it sahih.

Note that the Jews succeeded in “disappearing” all notion of a next life from their religion while the Christians succeeded in making it an ethereal abstraction. The Mu`tazila and other minority sects went that path also as do those who deny the reality of the punishment and reward of the grave, Hellfire, the Prophet’s Basin, the Bridge, the Balance, the Vision of Allah Most High etc.

  1. Abu Sa`id al-Khudri said, Allah be well-pleased with him: The Messenger of Allah said, upon him blessings and peace:

“The humblest of the People of Paradise shall have eighty thousand servants and seventy-two wives. A palace of pearl and peridot(a: A pale green variety of chrysolite; used as a gemstone) and sapphire shall be erected for him as wide as the distance between al-Jabiya [a valley about 70 kms. East of Makka] and San`a’ [in Yemen].” Al-Tirmidhi and Ahmad narrated it.

  1. Abu Hurayra said, Allah be well-pleased with him: The Messenger of Allah said, upon him blessings and peace:

“The humblest of the People of Paradise in rank shall have seven levels and as he will be on the sixth, below the seventh, he will have three hundred servants, every morning and evening three hundred dishes of gold shall be brought before him, every dish carrying something the other does not. He will taste pleasure as sharply with the first dish as he will with the last. He shall say, ‘My Lord! If you gave me permission, I would feed all the people of Paradise and water them from what I have and nothing should go missing from it.’ He will most certainly have seventy-two wives from the wide-eyed maidens of Paradise, the couch of only one of whom is as wide as a square mile on earth.” Ahmad narrated it in the Musnad.

  1. Abu Umama said, Allah be well-pleased with him: The Messenger of Allah said, upon him blessings and peace:

“None is made to enter Paradise by Allah Most High except Allah Most High shall marry him to seventy-two wives, two of them from the wide-eyed maidens of Paradise and seventy of them his inheritance from the People of Hellfire, not one of them but her attraction never lags nor his arousal ever wanes.” Narrated by Ibn Majah, Ibn Adi in the Kamil, and al-Bayhaqi in al-Bath wal-Nushur. Al-Suyuti marked its chain as “fair” (hasan) in al-Jami` al-Saghir (§7989).

  1. Ibn Abi Awfa said, Allah be well-pleased with him: The Messenger of Allah said, upon him blessings and peace:

“Every man from the People of Paradise shall be married off to four thousand virgins, eight thousand slave-girls, and one hundred wide-eyed maidens of Paradise. They shall all meet him within every seven days. They shall say with their exquisite voices no creature has ever heard the like before: ‘We are the everlasting women, we never grow old, we are the refined women, we never grow sour, we are the ever-pleased women, we never anger, we are the sedentary ones, we never travel away, blessings to him who is for us and we are for him!’” Abu al-Shaykh in al-Azama and al-Bayhaqi in al-Bath wal-Nushur.

  1. Hatib ibn Abi Balta`a said, Allah be well-pleased with him: I heard the Messenger of Allah say, upon him blessings and peace:

“The believer in Paradise shall be married off to seventy-two women, seventy women of the hereafter and two women of the women of this world.” Narrated by Ibn al-Sakan in Marifat al-Sahaba and Ibn Asakir in Tarikh Dimashq.

  1. Abu Hurayra said, Allah be well-pleased with him:

It was asked, “Messenger of Allah, do we reach our women in Paradise?” He replied, “A man will reach in a single day one hundred virgins.” Al-Tabarani in al-Saghir and al-Awsat, Abu Nu`aym in Sifat al-Janna, and al-Khatib in Tarikh Baghdad. Abu Dya’ al-Maqdisi declared it sahih according to Ibn al-Qayyim in Hadi al-Arwah and Ibn Kathir in al-Fitan wal-Malahim and so did Khaldun al-Ahdab in Zawa’id Tarikh Baghdad (§100).

  1. Ibn Abbas narrated something similar. Abu Yala in his Musnad with a good chain as indicated by al-Haythami in Majma` al-Zawa’id.

  2. Jabir said, Allah be well-pleased with him: I heard the Messenger of Allah say, upon him blessings and peace:

“I entered Paradise and saw that most of its dwellers were women.” Narrated by al-Bayhaqi in al-Bath wal-Nushur and Ibn Asakir in Tarikh Dimashq.[/quote]

I read that the final mile of the marathon was dedicated to the victims of the Newtown massacre. Just imagine how far into the twilight zone things would get if conspiracy nutjobs start actually perpetrating acts of terrorism themselves.

I do call a major part of Islam dangerously evil. The danger is also that a normal Muslim can easily be changed into a violent, misogynistic fanatic, just by following the tenets of the Quran.

Hitchens and others have made this obvious: the punishment against apostasy, the punishment for unbelievers, etc. The Book is a medieval monstrosity. Normal Muslims, ie people, are at least moderated by the modern values of civilisation by 20th century standards.[/quote]

Don’t tell me that a religion who promises a man who martyrs himself the reward of raping 72 virgins (unless you think Allah makes them fall in love with him… and if so, what does that say about that god) in Heaven isn’t somehow twisted and perverse?[/quote]

It doesn’t promise 72 virgins. justislam.co.uk/product.php?products_id=216[/quote]

uh… your link states that the promise (of women) is embellished by the Hadith.… which is a accepted canon of Islam together with the Koran. Nice try.

either way, it promises maidens in heaven. doesn’t matter if it’s 1 or 72. still rape.[/quote]

Ah no, it doesn’t. The word used - houri - simply means companion, and applies to both genders. It’s basically saying you’ll have an intelligent companion of equal age in heaven. No rape, no violence and not only for men. And of course the whole thing, just like the Christian Bible, is meant to be taken metaphorically not literally.

I do call a major part of Islam dangerously evil. The danger is also that a normal Muslim can easily be changed into a violent, misogynistic fanatic, just by following the tenets of the Quran.

Hitchens and others have made this obvious: the punishment against apostasy, the punishment for unbelievers, etc. The Book is a medieval monstrosity. Normal Muslims, ie people, are at least moderated by the modern values of civilisation by 20th century standards.[/quote]

Don’t tell me that a religion who promises a man who martyrs himself the reward of raping 72 virgins (unless you think Allah makes them fall in love with him… and if so, what does that say about that god) in Heaven isn’t somehow twisted and perverse?[/quote]

It doesn’t promise 72 virgins. justislam.co.uk/product.php?products_id=216[/quote]

uh… your link states that the promise (of women) is embellished by the Hadith.… which is a accepted canon of Islam together with the Koran. Nice try.

either way, it promises maidens in heaven. doesn’t matter if it’s 1 or 72. still rape.[/quote]

Ah no, it doesn’t. The word used - houri - simply means companion, and applies to both genders. It’s basically saying you’ll have an intelligent companion of equal age in heaven. No rape, no violence and not only for men. And of course the whole thing, just like the Christian Bible, is meant to be taken metaphorically not literally.[/quote]

I call BS. houri does not mean a man. the male version might be called a gholam/ghulam. metaphor my ass.

Of course it’s metaphoric. Every religious text ever written is metaphoric.

huh? I think they were written to be seen as the word of God, even if the writers themselves were aware they were doing it metaphorically. But later religious leaders finds it easier to reconcile with daily life if they are interpreted metaphorically.

promising you rewards in heaven as enticement is NOT metaphorical. better quit while you’re ahead.

[quote]cfimages wrote:
Of course it’s metaphoric. Every religious text ever written is metaphoric.[/quote]

No they’re not. They were 100% literal word-of-God shit (well, all the original texts anyway). Modernism and all that “It’s just a metaphor” crap has ruined religion for us atheists: it has made religion so much easier to defend for people on the fence and wanna-believers.

Religious types should go back to the original meanings, and then everyone could laugh at the fundamentalists trying to speak to the spirit in the sky. And then maybe we’d have more time for playing Ingress rather than going to Church and building bombs to rid the world of apostates and infidels.

I’ve lived, worked with and been friends with a lot of Muslims and none of them read it literally.

Those that do are kind of like the fundamentalist Christians in the USA who have a habit of blowing up family planning clinics and believe the earth is 6000 years old. They are certainly not representative of the majority.

What’s the point then: why believe in a God at all, if it’s just a moral code? Just be nice people and save all the religious angst.

I’m not religious so I can’t answer that.

I like this bit. It sounds more like a punishment for the infidel. Seventy bloody wives, all telling you to pick your socks up off the floor and take the garbage out? No wonder he needs strength for a hundred.

Anyways, I think it’s important to draw a distinction between religious politics, and spirituality. Any religion has a component of both. For example, the average Catholic might consider his religion as spiritually fulfilling, adding meaning and purpose to his life. And then we’ve got his Popiness and his bizarre microstate, making up random rules as The Word of God, interfering with the affairs of sovereign states (e.g., the recent Church campaign against the president of the Philippines for making contraception available) and generally causing a shitload of trouble in the world. Likewise with Islam; you’ve got what ordinary people do in the mosques and in the privacy of their homes, and you’ve got what the politicans wrangle and rant about, and justify as Religious Propriety. The first is really nobody’s business, and nobody’s concern. The second should be condemned and fought against (with words at least), whatever the country, and whatever purported ‘religion’ is being used as an excuse.

me too. I’ve done Ramadan fast with my buddy/roommate in college.

The point is not that modern moderate Muslims like Christians may cherrypick and kinda create his own version. In fact, that is an improvement.

The point is that these books were life and death and meant to be literal. They are still life and death in many Muslim countries where shari’a law prevails.

You think the penalty for apostasy is metaphorical? try saying that in Saudi Arabia as you’re knelt down under the executioner.