When the books don't agree

[Taffy]

@Petrichor

So, do the pronunciations change according to which word they’re next to, like bu2 and yi1? Or according to something else? Or is it just completely arbitrary? (Please don’t let it be answer three. )

OK, there are three different phenomena at work here.

1. Tone sandhi

Sandhi is the regular (i.e. predictable) change of one tone into another. You have already learned this for specific cases (bù and yī), and you probably also know the “rule” that when you have two or more third tones in a row, all but the last become second tones. Sandhi in Mandarin is pretty limited, and relatively easy to learn (try Taiwanese for seriously messed-up sandhi).

2. Poyinzi

Characters with more than one pronunciation. These pronunciations usually represent different meanings, so 重 chóng is “to repeat” whereas 重 zhòng is “heavy”.

3. Regional differences

Usually this will be China vs Taiwan differences in pronunciations, such as Fàguó vs Fǎguó for France.

[sjcma]

[quote=“Taffy”]3. Regional differences

Usually this will be China vs Taiwan differences in pronunciations, such as Fàguó vs Fǎguó for France.[/quote]

Even Fàguó vs Fǎguó is changing. The lastest MOE dictionary shows 法國 as ㄈㄚˇ ㄍㄨㄛˊ (Fǎguó). Looks like a bit of simplification going on in TW as well to match the PRC pronunciation.

[cranky_laowai]

@Petrichor

my dictionary is alphabetic, based on Hanyu Pinyin. The problem was that there are about 12 weis and I didn’t look through all the different tones, just the one that appeared in PAVC - wei4.

I suspect you have a standard PRC-style dictionary: one of Chinese characters arranged by Hanyu Pinyin, with words written using particular characters arranged under the head Hanzi. I’m talking about something very different: a dictionary of Mandarin words arranged alphabetically.

Here’s the style I’m referring to.

[Petrichor]

@Taffy

[quote=“Petrichor”]So, do the pronunciations change according to which word they’re next to, like bu2 and yi1? Or according to something else? Or is it just completely arbitrary? (Please don’t let it be answer three. )

OK, there are three different phenomena at work here.

1. Tone sandhi

Sandhi is the regular (i.e. predictable) change of one tone into another. You have already learned this for specific cases (bù and yī), and you probably also know the “rule” that when you have two or more third tones in a row, all but the last become second tones. Sandhi in Mandarin is pretty limited, and relatively easy to learn (try Taiwanese for seriously messed-up sandhi).

2. Poyinzi

Characters with more than one pronunciation. These pronunciations usually represent different meanings, so 重 chóng is “to repeat” whereas 重 zhòng is “heavy”.

3. Regional differences

Usually this will be China vs Taiwan differences in pronunciations, such as Fàguó vs Fǎguó for France.[/quote]

Thanks for explaining that.

It seems to me that this phenomenon would favour a CI style of learning, or rather a longer term, familiarity-based acquisition of tones. Would you say that you’re conscious of applying a particular tone according to the systems you’ve outlined above, or that your mouth eventually chimes in with what your ears have heard over and over?

[Petrichor]

@cranky laowai

[quote=“Petrichor”]my dictionary is alphabetic, based on Hanyu Pinyin. The problem was that there are about 12 weis and I didn’t look through all the different tones, just the one that appeared in PAVC - wei4.

I suspect you have a standard PRC-style dictionary: one of Chinese characters arranged by Hanyu Pinyin, with words written using particular characters arranged under the head Hanzi. I’m talking about something very different: a dictionary of Mandarin words arranged alphabetically.

Here’s the style I’m referring to.
[/quote]

Yes, it took me a while to figure out what the difference was between the two types of dictionaries, but you’re right, my dictionary has single characters under single Hanyu Pinyin morphemes (if that’s the correct term - I know what I mean anyway!). Then it lists a few words that that character appears in.
I agree, the type of dictionary you’re talking about would be more useful. My dictionary attacks the problem from an English-centric viewpoint.

[Dragonbones]

[quote=“Petrichor”]Well, there’s no way I’m going to forget this character now!

DB, could you give me the story for the next 3,000 or so? Plus the ways they’ve been put together to make new words? [/quote] Start here:

[quote]謝光輝 Xie4 Guānghuī ed., (1997), The Composition of Common Chinese Characters: An Illustrated Account, Peking (sic) University Press. ISBN 7-301-03329-x. It’s a large softcover book with 652 pp., each showing the evolution of one character, with single, representative OB, bronze, and seal forms, accompanied by a brief paragraph of explanation in English and Mandarin (simplified characters), with illustrations and cartoons. Despite the cartoons, this is rather more accurate than the books by Peng, so it can therefore actually be recommended as an introduction to the topic for the casual reader. However, it still does not have the scholarly rigor to make it a suitable text for the beginning university student or serious amateur sinophile, and the single examples don’t give an accurate picture of the diversity of forms at any point in time. The layout is also tremendously wasteful of space, and it is only a partial translation of the larger, Chinese original. With only 651 characters (although more than most sources), its usefulness as a reference book is still very very limited, especially because many extremely basic characters are missing, such as 的, 是, 三, 五, 七, 切, 八, 巴, 把, 爸, 白, 百, 拜, 包, 九, 千 and so on, while a few uncommon (albeit etymologically interesting) ones such as 囂 xiāo, 攀 pān, 陟 zhi4 and 刖 yue4 are included. Most frustrating is the fact that, as with most currently available mass-market books, Xie does not adequately address competing etymological theories when appropriate. For each main character entry in the main lessons and the indices, traditional characters are given parenthetically. The book is organized logically into topical categories (man, utensils, architecture, etc.) and indexed by topic, pinyin head letter, and stroke number. Available at Schoenhof’s online; or in Australia, chinabooks.com.au. Worthwhile for the beginner.
[/quote]

Then check out this post:
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=25851

[danbinggui]

People still use paper dictionaries? I suppose it is personal preference but I find electronic resources much more efficient. Plus an iPhone /iTouch fits much more nicely into the pocket compared to a bulky paper dictionary.

[Petrichor]

[quote=“Dragonbones”][quote=“Petrichor”]Well, there’s no way I’m going to forget this character now!

DB, could you give me the story for the next 3,000 or so? Plus the ways they’ve been put together to make new words? [/quote] Start here:

[quote]謝光輝 Xie4 Guānghuī ed., (1997), The Composition of Common Chinese Characters: An Illustrated Account, Peking (sic) University Press. ISBN 7-301-03329-x. It’s a large softcover book with 652 pp., each showing the evolution of one character, with single, representative OB, bronze, and seal forms, accompanied by a brief paragraph of explanation in English and Mandarin (simplified characters), with illustrations and cartoons. Despite the cartoons, this is rather more accurate than the books by Peng, so it can therefore actually be recommended as an introduction to the topic for the casual reader. However, it still does not have the scholarly rigor to make it a suitable text for the beginning university student or serious amateur sinophile, and the single examples don’t give an accurate picture of the diversity of forms at any point in time. The layout is also tremendously wasteful of space, and it is only a partial translation of the larger, Chinese original. With only 651 characters (although more than most sources), its usefulness as a reference book is still very very limited, especially because many extremely basic characters are missing, such as 的, 是, 三, 五, 七, 切, 八, 巴, 把, 爸, 白, 百, 拜, 包, 九, 千 and so on, while a few uncommon (albeit etymologically interesting) ones such as 囂 xiāo, 攀 pān, 陟 zhi4 and 刖 yue4 are included. Most frustrating is the fact that, as with most currently available mass-market books, Xie does not adequately address competing etymological theories when appropriate. For each main character entry in the main lessons and the indices, traditional characters are given parenthetically. The book is organized logically into topical categories (man, utensils, architecture, etc.) and indexed by topic, pinyin head letter, and stroke number. Available at Schoenhof’s online; or in Australia, chinabooks.com.au. Worthwhile for the beginner.
[/quote]

Then check out this post:
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=25851[/quote]

Thanks DB. I read the post you linked to ( though I skipped the bit about books written in Chinese as I’m unlikely to be at that stage for a while). I take it that you’d recommend the above book as a starter for a complete beginner in the subject? I need to limit my book buying at the moment. I already have the Fun with Chinese Characters books but have given up on them because they don’t correspond with many of the characters I’m currently learning. It looks as though they aren’t at all accurate anyway, so a bit of a waste of time.

How’s your ten-year project coming along? That sounds like a book worth having when it’s finally published.

[Petrichor]

@danbinggui

People still use paper dictionaries? I suppose it is personal preference but I find electronic resources much more efficient. Plus an iPhone /iTouch fits much more nicely into the pocket compared to a bulky paper dictionary.

Yes, I must get an electronic dictionary. Ironlady suggested the Pleco app for an iPhone but I’ve got an Android and they haven’t developed an app for that yet. I know there’s a thread on here on electronic dictionaries that I’ll have to have a look at.