fee
Trolling calling? That’s funny. I guess I won the argument. Heh-he. :bouncy:
P.S. “bad” murder, “worse” murder, they are all no good and I cannot justify any of them, even if they are incrediiiiibly bad. 
I’m sure there’s LTH’s own version of how he “managed” this, and other peoples’ version.
But from what I understand, his association with “independence activities” while at Cornell was very cursory. As in, he was friends/associates with some involved in TI (Taiwan independence) movements, but this was enough to get him questioned by the ROC’s security forces. This experience supposedly was key in pushing him further in the TI direction.
By the way… all of this puts a different perspective on the position that: “oppression by the mainland CCP is the modern equivalent of 228 under the KMT,” doesn’t it? Lee Tung-hui was actually a member of the CCP before/during/after 228. Being a member of the CCP wasn’t like joining the Rotary Club or some other honor organization for purposes of future career advancement. Joining the CCP was subversive activity that would’ve led to a bullet in the back of his head, if he had ever been discovered.[/quote]
Lee was discovered. He was arrested and charged as a “Communist cadre.” I have a book about it (in Chinese). I also know the book’s author, Lan Bozhou, if anyone wants to meet him.
Taiwanese historian Lan Bozhou
Lan Bozhou’s book on Lee Teng-hui (Li Denghui)
I also met an old man who was one of the Communist Party members who recommended Lee Teng-hui to join. He didn’t like to talk about it because he disapproved of many things that Lee Teng-hui did, while still recognising Lee as an old friend.
Juba,
Interesting. I really can’t understand how he reached his status in the KMT, then. Do you have a reference to the book, and/or other details about that event? When/how, etc?
[quote=“almondcookie”][quote=“LA”]Oh no, you are not justifying “incredibly incredibly incredibly incredibly bad” murder, because it is not “incredibly incredibly incredibly incredibly incredibly incredibly bad” murder?
Say it isn’t sooooooooooooooooooo. 
[/quote]
nope, that’s what cctang did. he said big deal 228 was bad but hey, “that was status quo throughout China. College student activists had been executed in China for decades before 1947”. and LA, u’re a silly troll. bad at trolling. 
cctang, i don’t read well? maybe the issue is more to do with the fact that u don’t write very well?[/quote]
I guess I must write reasonably well, since you seem to be somewhat close to my point.
Am I wrong when I compare 228 to similar violent purges committed in the decades that preceded it? Why are you apparently so emotionally invested in believing that 228 is unique amongst Taiwanese, KMT, Chinese, or for that matter world history in terms of brutality, cruelty, or immorality?
[quote=“cctang”][quote=“almondcookie”][quote=“LA”]Oh no, you are not justifying “incredibly incredibly incredibly incredibly bad” murder, because it is not “incredibly incredibly incredibly incredibly incredibly incredibly bad” murder?
Say it isn’t sooooooooooooooooooo. [/quote]
nope, that’s what cctang did. he said big deal 228 was bad but hey, “that was status quo throughout China. College student activists had been executed in China for decades before 1947”. and LA, u’re a silly troll. bad at trolling.
cctang, i don’t read well? maybe the issue is more to do with the fact that u don’t write very well?[/quote]
I guess I must write reasonably well, since you seem to be somewhat close to my point.
Am I wrong when I compare 228 to similar violent purges committed in the decades that preceded it? Why are you apparently so emotionally invested in believing that 228 is unique amongst Taiwanese, KMT, Chinese, or for that matter world history in terms of brutality, cruelty, or immorality?[/quote]
So what if it was not unique? China was very good for about 100 or so years from the 19th & for most of the 20th century at eliminating the cream of it’s society. Does that change what 228 was in any way?
The fact remains that at the time the instruments of power were, with very few exceptions, held by WSR. And, if it was not such a big deal, then why was Chen Yi executed? Just to satisfy the BSR population?
Isn’t that sort of a double standard for Chen Yi? For collaborating with the CCP the man is executed by the KMT. BSR still don’t like Chen Yi.
However, when BSR TI leadership suggest Taiwan collaborate with Japan these days, they are praised as folk heroes. They can do no wrong, unless their grandchildren are born as Americans.
Doesn’t that illustrate a sort of “racist” thinking
I don’t think your question is pointed at me.
It certainly doesn’t change my perception of 228 in any way. I think it’s another tragic chapter of what is a very tragic couple of centuries in Chinese history.
Wasn’t Chen Yi executed for working with the Communists? Wikipedia seems to confirm this, stating that he was Zhejiang governor until informers pointed out he was considering going over to the Communists.
I don’t think your question is pointed at me.
It certainly doesn’t change my perception of 228 in any way. I think it’s another tragic chapter of what is a very tragic couple of centuries in Chinese history.
Wasn’t Chen Yi executed for working with the Communists? Wikipedia seems to confirm this, stating that he was Zhejiang governor until informers pointed out he was considering going over to the Communists.[/quote]
Not directly, except to point out that the fact that this also happened in China is irrelevant. 228 is very meaningful in terms of the Taiwan context regardless of what happened in China. It and the backlash had real effects on people in Taiwan and Taiwan politics.
As for Chen Yi, I stand corrected. He was just dismissed. It was always ‘explained’ to me that 228 was the ‘real’ reason he was executed.
Interesting quotes at the bottom of the Wiki page…if they are real (this being wiki)…they seem to bear out the fact that the KMT, WSR government truly felt a strong distiction between WSR & BSR…and that not “all men are brothers”.
“Mainland Chinese were advanced enough to enjoy the privileges of constitutional government, but because of long years of despotic Japanese rule, the Formosans were politically retarded and were not capable of carrying on self-government in an intelligent manner.”
and here is another gem…
“It took the Japs [sic.] 51 years to dominate this island. I expect to take about five years to re-educate the people so they will be more happy with Chinese administration.”
Seems like not just BSR making a distinction.
Back to LTH. Very bright guy. Very opportunitstic. Very skilled politician. Also quite corrupt once he got into power. In the right place & the right time as there were few BSR with the correct background to take meaningful roles in the government when he first entered service.
If the Japanese taught the BSR to hate the Chinese as part of their war effort, I have not seen many BSR TI leadership publicly renounce this type of attitude on Taiwan towards WSR yet.
The party responsible for 228 on the KMT side was publicly executed, a former Japanese prodigy of a BSR has become president, and now a very corrupt BSR is president of ROC.
So when do the BSR TI leadership preach reconciliations with WSR, instead of the usually inflammatory statements we have become too jaded to.
To put it mildly, I question the accuracy of those translated quotes (originally from a 1947 Time article that also repeatedly used the word ‘Jap’).
But the word Jap was commonly used through the second world war and afterwards? What’s your problem?
I read a fascinating interview with a mainland soldier who had come over on a ship to put down the 228 “uprising.” He talked about how as soon as they landed, I think at Keelong, the Taiwanese they encountered wore Japanese style clothes, haircuts, houses, etc, could not, obviously, speak Mandarin but used Japanese as a lingua franca. When his unit were ordered to fire ion Taiwanese he said he was more than happy to, because in his mind they were Japanese and he’d endured the Japanese occupation in his home province. He said none of the soldiers he came with viewed the Taiwanese as in anyway Chinese.
HG
Conversely there are many BSR accounts of the time that state they viewed the Chinese as beneath them as well. Since when they arrived after decades of war on the mainland, they seem disheveled and unrefined.
So how does Taiwan society benefit from all this? LTH on many occassion has voiced his affinity for Japan. CSB has demonstrated he wants nothing to do with non-Hoklo on Taiwan.
Seems like that “artificial” Chinese identity is the only thing holding Taiwan together these days.
Well when you add the fact that the KMT started ripping apart Taiwan’s infrastructure to export to Shanghai, yeah I don’t think that adds popularity. There was already enough written.
Recent surveys showed that less than 10% of Taiwan believes they are pure Chinese, yet those in that crowd are most vocal (think Soong etc).
I would say I’d have to disagree and say they are pulling Taiwan apart. Plus since 1990, polls have consistently shown that fewer and fewer people consider themselves Chinese and more and more consider themselves Taiwanese.
Similarly the Pan Blues have been consistently losing government seats, property, shares in factories, etc for years now, considering that they owned almost everything in Taiwan from 1988, its a huge loss.
I think the same poll also shows that the vast majority have no problem identifying themselves as Taiwanese Chinese and don’t believe Taiwanese and Chinese identity are mutually exclusive.
Don’t forget Huaren. Now, I believe far majority of people in Taiwan can agree with that. 