HGC -
Oh to be priveleged as you to have such a vast repertoire of friends and ‘on the spot’ sources to allow you to look down upon us unworthy ones who would spread injurious and false rumors.
We are unworthy of living on your world. Pray fo forgive us heathen. Regard not our views which would deign to differ with your lofty knowledge…The One True Fountain from which Abundant Life Shall Spread!
If a lowly beggar such as myself might venture, begging his Highness pardon, preparing for the boot, might your Lordship care to comment on the other, unworthy and obviously confused though they may be, witnesses and participants accounts which dare to state otherwise regarding the massacre on T-Square?
Beg pardon O Holy One…suffer a poor wretch as meself to pose the question…About the paving stones that were exchanged to hide the massive blood-stains…the pictures of the bodies being taken from the site…the accounts made by PRC soldiers who have come forth with their own accounts of the murder and bloodshed on the square…?
I pray forgiveness from you Dear Sainted One…your wisdom is a blessing to us all…tolerate the crude ramblings of a lowly knuckle-dragger as myself in my impudent questioning.
Rather long winded for a simple “I was a stupid fuck and apologise”, but accepted on behalf of the thousands that died elsewhere in that incident and who’s bravery and loss you so glibly attempted to deny.
[quote]. . . might your Lordship care to comment on the other, unworthy and obviously confused though they may be, witnesses and participants accounts which dare to state otherwise regarding the massacre on T-Square?
Beg pardon O Holy One…suffer a poor wretch as meself to pose the question…About the paving stones that were exchanged to hide the massive blood-stains…the pictures of the bodies being taken from the site…the accounts made by PRC soldiers who have come forth with their own accounts of
the murder and bloodshed on the square…? [/quote]
Who to believe, a freeper bogroller, Chai Ling, who claims that so many were killed, while screaching the need for bloodshed, or the last man to leave the square, Hou Dejian . . . hmmm . . . .“I keep thinking, do we have to create lies to fight our lying enemies? Isn’t the truth strong enough?” - Hou Dejian.
if you bother to watch that clip you might understand the importance of denying this common falsehood.
Huang, I am not sure what your point is. Most of us know the protests were widespread. TSM seems to me just a shorthand, as many such shorthands are, to describe a complex event.
Watch that youtube comment from Hou Dejian and ask me again. Sort of depends on who you mean by “most of us.” I know you do, but so many don’t. I lived and worked in a hospital for six months in Hangzhou in 1992. I heard what happened in Hangzhou, and there were many tales from student doctor colleagues sent down to very lowly hospitals in Hangzhou for participating in the protests in Shanghai. But it took some time to hear about the shitstorm in Wuhan, and out west.
My concern is that someone who peddles the Tiananmen students stomped by tanks stuff goes to China, finds out THAT wasn’t true and starts to question the rest of the story. Dumb? Sure, but there’s plenty of dumb people about, and lot’s more that would like to ease their conscience about doing business in a place where they could show TCM wasn’t a M.
That’s clipped to hide the bit about what happened elsewhere, but Hou’s point is that the next generation of Chinese leaders should pay heed to not building their leadership on myths, as Chai Ling was attempting to do. And possibly exactly what that edited clip is trying to do for the other side.
The portion on the PBS site is called Theatre of massacre. You put the cursor over the links to the vids and it moves to the left and right to show more chapters. It’s to the right of the opening page.
I[quote] was teaching in Jiayi - I had just gotten a raise and was making 45k a month. With my rent at $2500, and a high Taiwan dollar, I was making a king’s ransom.
I was pretty interested in the student protests, because Gorbachev had just visited Beijing, and with the fall of the Iron Curtain, I was wondering if China would go the same route. It was a huge year, in terms of news.
The reaction of the students here was pretty interesting - they were very upset and indignant that this could have happened to their “brothers”. No way would there be a reaction like that today! [/quote]
What I meant, and I think MM meant, was that young people in Taiwan felt like they were personally concerned with events in China, that they had an important stake in what was happening, and that they emotionally involved with what was going on there.
There would certainly be interest, and the presence of many Taiwanese in China would make that a more informed interest. But I don’t think there would be the kind of emotional solidarity that I saw in 1989. That’s long gone.
Understood. It’s usually futile going against you on things Chinese, by the way. Mind you I did have that caveat about not seeing the original quote!
There would be a rather large group of concerned onlookers though, with so many Taiwanese having worked, working and married to mainland spouses, not to mention the economic hope of riding the Chinese wave
[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]Understood. It’s usually futile going against you on things Chinese, by the way. Mind you I did have that caveat about not seeing the original quote!
There would be a rather large group of concerned onlookers though, with so many Taiwanese having worked, working and married to mainland spouses, not to mention the economic hope of riding the Chinese wave
Cheers.
HG[/quote]
I’d agree with that.
Given the interest in the event and the Forumosans who were here then etc. how about a little Forumosan memorial gathering on June 4th? It’s on a Thursday. Perhaps it could be combined with June happy hour?
What? I do hope you regularly lubricate the pump you use to inflate your ego.
I made no comments regarding the injuries or deaths of people in areas other than T-Square. Why are you thumping your chest over this part of the record? Divergent blithering on your part, IMO.
I was clearly and explicitly referring to accounts, supported, recorded and multiple-person accounts of the happenings on T-Square during the incident referred to in the OP.
[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”][quote]. . . might your Lordship care to comment on the other, unworthy and obviously confused though they may be, witnesses and participants accounts which dare to state otherwise regarding the massacre on T-Square?
Beg pardon O Holy One…suffer a poor wretch as meself to pose the question…About the paving stones that were exchanged to hide the massive blood-stains…the pictures of the bodies being taken from the site…the accounts made by PRC soldiers who have come forth with their own accounts of
the murder and bloodshed on the square…? [/quote]
Who to believe, a freeper bogroller, Chai Ling, who claims that so many were killed, while screaching the need for bloodshed, or the last man to leave the square, Hou Dejian . . . hmmm . . . .“I keep thinking, do we have to create lies to fight our lying enemies? Isn’t the truth strong enough?” - Hou Dejian. [/quote]
Once again, you have access to information I am not aware of. If this sourcing supports your points…then have at them
You still do not address the issues I pointed out. But I didn’t expect you to.
[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]But hey, what can I say, some folks know shit, others talk it. You can always choose who you prefer to listen to, of course.
HG[/quote]
It would appear that you have a preference for the really good shit.
No fault in that…I suppose.
who cares whether they actually died IN the square, or NEAR the square? that’s irrelevant in the big scheme of things, and only hair splitters will protest.
what is reprehensible is that the Chinese communist Party hardmen saw fit to use troops and armour against protesters, to quash a rebellious student movement centred around protests in TienAnMen Square. that’s the focal point, and that’s why it got named as such: the TienAnMen Square Massacre. And whether 4,000 (as hyperbolically claimed by some) or ‘only’ 200 died in Beijing that day and night, who cares overly: the point is that it is a day of shame for the leaders of China at the time, and by inference, the current crop of leaders who may have profited from such actions.
it is a powerful and emotive label that should be remembered aloud every year, so that there is less chance of a similar incident happening again.
Tossers.
Oh, and where was I?
Lying on my back in bed, coming up to my fourth month out of hospital, growing my hips and my back into place again after a horrific motorbike accident.
[quote]It would appear that you have a preference for the really good shit.
No fault in that…I suppose.[/quote]
Sorry, mate, not pumping my ego here. Let’s put it this way, what If I posted a comment on say, Vietnam, something I believe you really do know something about . . .
Apols for the tone, No excuse, really, but I have had a tough week.
Sorry, I studied history. The shorthand for TSM is the square part of the story. Yes we know the rest, because we were around at the time, but there is every possibility the next generation will say: “oh yeah, that TSM thing, well guess what? It didn’t happen. Wow! Imagine that?” There are elements of the Party that relish the thought of that one, for example. And these are almost by definition the ones that would do it again.
[quote]what is reprehensible is that the Chinese communist Party hardmen saw fit to use troops and armour against protesters, to quash a rebellious student movement centred around protests in TienAnMen Square. that’s the focal point, and that’s why it got named as such: the TienAnMen Square Massacre. And whether 4,000 (as hyperbolically claimed by some) or ‘only’ 200 died in Beijing that day and night, who cares overly: the point is that it is a day of shame for the leaders of China at the time, and by inference, the current crop of leaders who may have profited from such actions.
it is a powerful and emotive label that should be remembered aloud every year, so that there is less chance of a similar incident happening again.[/quote]
I agree, but think it is important to do so by being clear on the facts.
I think this is an important point - the gov. didn’t really care about the students - I mean how many students are there in China relative to the population? They got really scared when the workers started. That’s when things got bloody.
Chai Ling - I met her a couple of times. She had a canned, ‘presentation’, for students. Mostly just wanted to get on with her life.
BTW: I can’t watch the youtube since it’s blocked along with thatswhyyourfat.com. Go figure
I had just graduated HS the month before and sat watching, on a black and white set, Chinese solders in their tanks run down–and over–Chinese citizens; vivid even without color, and immages I’ve never forgotten. At that time, I don’t think I’d ever even met a single Chinese person, ethnic or citizen. I remember being transfixed by the horror I felt, and perplexed when the news guy said that this was because the Cinese citizens wanted Democracy.
I think this is an important point - the gov. didn’t really care about the students - I mean how many students are there in China relative to the population? They got really scared when the workers started. That’s when things got bloody. [/quote]
Which just makes the decisions Han Dongfang took all the more astonishing. And he’s still at it!!! He led the autonomous workers whatever it was, and then after the crackdown, heard he was on the top of the wanted list so promptly waltzed straight into a cop shop and said, "I believe you’re looking for me.’ Incredibly he survived, and more incredibly he’s still firing away for the rights of Chinese workers.
[quote]Han Dongfang (simplified Chinese: 韩东方; traditional Chinese: 韓東方; pinyin: Hán Dōngfāng; born 1963) has been an advocate for workers’ rights in China for more than two decades during which time he has won numerous international awards including the 1993 Democracy Award from the U.S. National Endowment for Democracy.
Born in the impoverished village of Nanweiquan in Shanxi, Han first came to international prominence when, as a railway worker in Beijing, he helped set up the Beijing Autonomous Workers’ Federation (BAWF) during the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989. The BAWF was the People’s Republic of China’s first independent trade union, established as an alternative to the Party-controlled All-China Federation of Trade Unions.
The BAWF was disbanded after the June 4 crackdown and Han was placed at the top of the Chinese government’s most wanted list. Han turned himself into the police and was imprisoned for 22 months without trial until he contacted tuberculosis in prison and was released in April 1991. He spent a year in the U.S. undergoing medical treatment before returning to China in August 1993. On his return, he was arrested in Guangzhou and expelled to Hong Kong, where he still lives today.[/quote]
Unfortunately, that’s the way it was packaged in the west, it’s not what was really going on at the time or since. The student movement sounded almost exactly like red guards, because that’s who they were taking their lead from. See for example the post above about Chai Ling and the movement requiring the blood of martyrs.
Really?
Are you channeling ABC here?
The student movement = the Red Guard, eh?
Of course you do have your inside track to “The Real Story.” Which is something those of us among the great unwashed are not privy to.
I must confess. This is the first statement like this I have seen in the 20 years since this incident.
Although shifting the blame onto the victims is a common strategem among certain oppressive groups…
Really?
Are you channeling ABC here?
The student movement = the Red Guard, eh?
Of course you do have your inside track to “The Real Story.” Which is something those of us among the great unwashed are not privy to.
I must confess. This is the first statement like this I have seen in the 20 years since this incident.
Although shifting the blame onto the victims is a common strategem among certain oppressive groups… [/quote]
Mate, please, don’t embarrass yourself by your lack of reading here. That’s not a bitch slap, it’s a fair call. I studied this shit for a very long time, the language too, and have met many of the actors, while you - and I do believe you may have been privy to some very good channels given your experience, so to speak, umm, like Westmoreland was . . . was that my stupid Viet comment? - seem to recall mostly sound bytes off the press at that time.
Inside track? I bet you can get me a really cool rental in Cali. I hope one day you do give me such a reference and that I exploit it. But this particular issue is something I have looked at very long and hard. It seems to irk you, but here’s some more name dropping. I gave Wei Jingsheng a cig back of house and chatted away for a good 10 minutes after he gave a speech just days after getting out of prison. You really want to keep playing this?
I won’t proffer my best sources on this, but let’s just say I have the inside skinny here. You can like it or lump it.
Saw the vid clip. I get his point and yours about not exagerating or misrepresenting the facts. In the online era especially it is so simple to prove assertions wrong; and all you need to do is prove one wrong to get the wheels of skepticism going about the entire event.
The Dalai Lama needs to learn this. While he represents a just and humane cause he has said so much that is a stretch at best, willful blindness at worst, that I get almost as frustrated with him as the Chinese. Just a casual look online will bring up scads of references to Prof Goldstein’s histories and articles on Tibet to prove the Chinese case. Goldstein is highly sympathetic to the Tibetan case but he is also a scholar and presents what actually has happened (bad enough without the exaggerations). When his worked is cherry picked by the Han-bots, who you gonna believe, the guy in the sleeveless tunic or the most repected historian in his field?
