That’s disingenuous at best.
[quote=“hansioux”](Koxinga who was actually half Japanese/Qing/KMT)
[/quote]
Oh my… Did Koxinga have a time machine? How else can he be KMT? 
Not an entirely accurate statement. Modern independence movement predates the end of WW2. In 1941, Takao Prefecture used the excuse of alleged support for TI to persecute over 400 social elites. TI was actively promoted by at least one suspect, Dr. Ngôo Hái-suí (吳海水). Taiwan Communist Party also stated support for a Republic of Taiwan.
Even in China leaders voiced support for TI before and during WW2.
SYS stated support for TI in 1925 (在臺灣的中國同胞，被日本壓迫，我們必須鼓吹臺灣獨立，和高麗的獨立運動互相聯合).
Mao voiced support for TI in 1936 (如果朝鮮人民希望掙脫日本帝國主義者的枷鎖，我們熱烈支持他們爭取獨立的戰鬥，這點同樣適用於臺灣).
CKS voiced support for TI in 1938 (總理以為我們必須使高麗，臺灣恢復獨立自由才能鞏固中華民國的國防).
Chou En-lai voiced support for TI in 1941 (我們同情民族國家的獨立，解放運動，我們不只協助朝鮮與臺灣，也同情印度與南亞諸國的民族解放運動).
I would say Peng Min-ming’s generation was a continuation of pre-WW2 TI movements, but invigorated by what they saw under KMT’s rule.[/quote]
I’d be interested in knowing the extent of Ngo’s movement. Some contemporary Independence movement considers the Republic of Formosa (1895) the starting point.
The problem is this:we need to clarify to what external power each movement is against. Independence Against Japan hardly attracted anybody in Taiwan, at that time. Independence Against China, on the other hand, is more sensible to the Taiwanese. Why?
Independence arises out of the need to address a Common External Security Threat, unanimously recognized among the population in all regions.
In the Japanese Era, to each pockets of colonies/tribes, the perception and definition of “External” varies from pocket to pocket. It is in the Japanese Era that the identity of the whole Formosa amalgamated into one. The perception and definition of external roughly resembles a state boundary in the modern sense.
China presented itself as that CEST, inevitably at the moment China decided it no longer supported Taiwan Independence from Japan and wanted to absorb it instead.
Now that is interesting. I wonder if CKS would have entertained the idea of an independent Taiwan after Japan’s defeat if the KMT hadn’t been evicted from China.
[quote=“Vilnius”][quote=“hansioux”](Koxinga who was actually half Japanese/Qing/KMT)
[/quote]
Oh my… Did Koxinga have a time machine? How else can he be KMT? [/quote]
No Koxinga didn’t have a time machine, but the KMT had one.
You made a good point earlier that there wasn’t such a thing as Taiwanese identity before the Japanese arrived. Perhaps the limited resistance to Japan was because there wasn’t really a sense of invasion of a comprehensive political unit, and so there was no nationalistic call to overthrow the “outsiders” – basically everyone was an outsider already learning to get along with his neighbors. 19th and early 20th century Taiwan had no love for Chinese governance and its propensity to violently squash rebellions (like Lin Shuangwen’s), so by comparison Japanese rule probably didn’t seem terrible.
It’s kind of like Hawaii. The American citizens on the island first overthrew the Queen then established an independent Republic of Hawaii in 1893 and then promptly started to talk to the US to annex Hawaii which it did in 1898. I imagine many Chinese were hoping to do the same for Taiwan.
Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised if Hawaii is where Dr Sun Yat-sen got the idea.
[quote=“Dirt”]It’s kind of like Hawaii. The American citizens on the island first overthrew the Queen then established an independent Republic of Hawaii in 1893 and then promptly started to talk to the US to annex Hawaii which it did in 1898. I imagine many Chinese were hoping to do the same for Taiwan.
Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised if Hawaii is where Dr Sun Yat-sen got the idea.[/quote]
Reminds me of the people of Hawaii who wants to end US occupation
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Wei-shui
Rest in peace, Mr Chiang Wei-shui, founder of Taiwan’s first political party. Your dream of having Taiwan ruled based on Dr Sun’s 3 Principles of the People has been achieved.
Now that is interesting. I wonder if CKS would have entertained the idea of an independent Taiwan after Japan’s defeat if the KMT hadn’t been evicted from China.[/quote]
I’d say the answer is a resounding no given what happened between '45 and '49.
Now that is interesting. I wonder if CKS would have entertained the idea of an independent Taiwan after Japan’s defeat if the KMT hadn’t been evicted from China.[/quote]
I’d say the answer is a resounding no given what happened between '45 and '49.[/quote]
That’d depend on US-China relation and how Korea fits into this relation. Remember the Chinese killed a lot of Murican because of Korea, first and foremost.
If a CKS China was fine with an independent Korea, then it would be just as fine with an independent Formosa.
See, it’s really about which of the 4 quadrants China decides its main threat is from. It’s a choice.
I’d say the answer is a resounding no given what happened between '45 and '49.[/quote]
Hard to say. They were in the process of being evicted at that point. Imagine if they had actually kept up a friendship with the Communist Party and China became a two-party democratic state, with the KMT on one side of the political spectrum and the Communist Party on the other side, fighting it out in electoral battles rather than killing fields. If the KMT needed Taiwanese votes, they would have courted the Taiwanese people rather then keeping them under an authoritarian heel.
Of course, it’s all hypothetical.
Or alternatively, imagine if they’d joined the USSR as a full union territory.
Or if the Chiangs had established a slightly longer dynasty, like the Kims in North Korea. Then the ladies would be goose-stepping through the streets in mini-skirts. And the calendars would all say that this is the year 104. 
I’d say the answer is a resounding no given what happened between '45 and '49.[/quote]
Hard to say. They were in the process of being evicted at that point. Imagine if they had actually kept up a friendship with the Communist Party and China became a two-party democratic state, with the KMT on one side of the political spectrum and the Communist Party on the other side, fighting it out in electoral battles rather than killing fields. If the KMT needed Taiwanese votes, they would have courted the Taiwanese people rather then keeping them under an authoritarian heel.
Of course, it’s all hypothetical.[/quote]
The best I could see is the Chinese government offering Taiwan autonomy that would then wind up being strongly curtailed. Nothing in CKS’ record, during good times and bad, suggest he’d be generous.
Of course, it’s possible that the US would sour on China and demand the SF Treaty provide for a plebiscite on Taiwan’s fate rather than simply handing it to China, put only that manner of outside pressure would really secure and independent Taiwan.
Are you accounting for the sizable portion of TI advocates who say, even today, “we were better under Japanese rule.”[/quote]
They say that because the Japanese did do things better, but they are not saying that TI means we want Taiwan to be a part of Japan. See my post about
[quote]TI supporters would only point to Japan by saying “Chinese claims to be our blood relatives, but in reality you did even worse than the Japanese.”
[/quote][/quote]
Yeah, I don’t know any actual TIers who want Taiwan to be part of Japan. I know plenty of folks who claim to be Chinese “nationalists” ( lower case “n”, not KMT) who routinely accuse TIers though of wanting to be part of Japan. I figure it is just their version of “When did you stop beating your wife?”
Regarding the Chinese as “brothers”, I’d also agree that it would rankle anyone more if a person claiming to be your brother actually treated you wore than a neighbor (especially if the person also claimed they could treat you badly because of their brotherhood). The tragedy of 20th Century Taiwan is that the Taiwanese for most of that time had to pick between being second class Japanese or second class Chinese. I was explaining Taiwans history to a Korean friend who asked if Taiwanese were resentful of China giving away Taiwan to Japan so that it could preserve influence over Korea.
It is absolutely nothing like Hawaii, the history of which you might need to catch up on quite a bit, to say the least. But hey, that would seem par for the course in any Politics forum.
[quote=“Dirt”]Chiang Wei-shui - Wikipedia
Rest in peace, Mr Chiang Wei-shui, founder of Taiwan’s first political party. Your dream of having Taiwan ruled based on Dr Sun’s 3 Principles of the People has been achieved.[/quote]
Chiang Wei-shui (Tsiúnn Ūi-súi 蔣渭水) was lucky that he died early (40-yrs-old, 1931).
Chiang was in the end a communist, and as such fractured the already fragile Taiwan Cultural Association (台灣文協會). In his will this is what he wrote:
[quote]臺灣革命社會運動，已進入第三期，無產階級的勝利迫在眉睫。 凡我青年同志須極力奮鬥，而舊同志要加倍團結， 積極的援助青年同志，期望為同胞解放而努力
Taiwan’s social revolution movement has already entered its third stage. Victory for the proletariats is immanent. Our young comrades should fight on with all they’ve got. Our old comrades should work to be more united, proactively support our young comrades, and work towards the liberation of our people.[/quote]
So it’s clear that Chiang only bought into the Three Principles of the People back when SYS and the KMT were backed by the Soviets.
Even if Chiang wasn’t a communist, and whole heartedly embraced CKS’ version of KMT, like many of his contemporaries, he would still be lucky to have died early, as most of Taiwan elites who welcomed the arrival of KMT were killed during the 228 incident and the subsequent white terror period, e.g., Ông Thiam-ting (王添灯) and Walis Wumi.
By the way, immediately after 228, CWS’s little brother Chiang Wei-chuan (Tsiúnn Ūi-tshuan 蔣渭川) was asked by Chen Yi (陳儀) to make a broadcast to the people of Taiwan on behalf of the KMT government. CWS was a full fledged KMT member at the time. However, a few days later, on March 10, KMT troops showed up at his house and said they were on orders to execute CWC.
CWC managed to escape alone, but his daughter Chiang Chiao-yun (蔣巧雲) was killed on site. His son was mortally wondered. After hiding for an entire year, CWC only re-emerged after Qiu Nian-tai (丘念台, son of Qiu Fengjia 丘逢甲) guaranteed his safety.
CWS literally rested in peace, as opposed to lived to be tortured to near death, then shot in the streets and dumped into the Keelung harbor.
[quote=“hansioux”]
Chiang was in the end a communist, [/quote]
which really made me wonder why the current Taiwanese president has so much regard for a man who was communist in the end… oh wait… I just realized how ridiculous that sounded. Ma is best buds with the communists right now…
A little-mentioned chapter in Taiwanese history is how closely alligned the TI movement was with communism back in the day. After 227, independence advocates were cozying up to Mao and the Communist Party in the hopes of kicking out the KMT. Then, until Chen Shui-bian was elected, the KMT and CPC were bitter enemies. Interesting how things reallign.