Tomyang was wrong about the Manchus but he is right about 20th century Mongolian history.
Since when did 滿清官話 start equaling the Manchurian language? 滿清官話 refers to the dialect spoken at court by the officials (mandarins) during the Qing (Manchu) Dynasty … which happened to be Chinese (language) … it doesn’t refer to the Manchu language, which is quite different.
And, Mod Lang’s quote was very relevant … in a previous post you said that “all” officials in the Qing court were Manchurian … and that is not true, the Manchus used many ethnic Han Chinese officials, hence the reason they were able to hold on to power for so long. One of the major reasons the Mongols lost power was their unwillingness to use Chinese in the government.
I’d love to know if I am wrong about the Mandarin origin.
I have the nerve to learn.
In no way am I saying this is conclusive:
http://www.asu.edu/studentprgms/orgs/tss/activity/spring98/Taibun/multilang/sld004.htm
and:
http://www.gati.org.tw/forums/fh/forumh14.htm
…
現在通行的北京話
本來是韃靼女真的語言
沒有文字
是在宋朝以後漢化時才融合的
所以
基本上
現在所謂的國語
其實就是胡虜講番話
…
I’m working on it… If I’m wrong, I’ll post it too. Don’t you worry.
[quote=“Quoting someone else, tomyang”]
the way it was taught to me was that china didn’t let mongolia go.
the soviets glommed onto half and china snapped up the other. the present day nation of mongolia was cut loose by the soviet union. inner mongolia was brought into PRC. the puppet state of manchukuo (the homeland of the manchus) was sliced and diced into all those smallish provinces up north; kinda explains why they are so small in area compared to other regions. divide, conquer and flood with ethnic han has long been a successful chinese expansion routine.
I’ve been searching Google with keywords: “滿州話”, “北京話”,
“滿州語”. You could do the same so we can all skip rubbishes.
I must admit it’s more complicated than I first thought due to
all kinds of mixings between differnt people and over time &
distance – accents, characters, usages, and definition variations.
Like this one:
http://www.wisknow.com/version/phorum/index.php?view=table&type_id=1&subj_id=83
…
現在的普通話並不是漢代的漢語，也不是唐代的唐語和宋代的宋語，
它和元代以後的官話最為接近。由於歷代因戰亂或移民而南遷的漢人
不斷地把當時的中原方言帶到南方，並沉澱在南方的方言之中，所以
我們現在可以在南方各種方言中找到數量很多的古漢語語音。同時，
由於北方自漢代以來不斷地有胡人南下入居塞內或入主中原，胡人和
漢人雜居在黃河流域，也使得北方的華夏古音逐漸胡化變成了今天的
北方話。 (注:為一部分讀者誤會,這裡的胡化是語言學術意義上的胡
化,而非罵人的胡化)
現在的北京話是女真滿洲人向漢族滿洲人學說漢語時用的口音。
由於滿族後來成為統治者，所以離得近地區的權貴都放棄自己的當地
口音說這種新的清朝官話，否則難免官途不順，生意難做，久而久之，
也就變成在北方應用廣泛的普通話，與滿清暴力強制不同，孫中山
建國首先考慮的是和平和民族團結,避免因官話改變引起大量民眾討
厭民國，所以堅持用清朝官話做國語。
What does this mean: “現在的北京話是女真滿洲人向漢族滿洲人學說漢語時用的口音”???
Sounds to me like Rumsfield’s: “…as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don’t know we don’t know…”!
Juda. I am in Canada and I can’t do much other than surfing & finding some interesting post(s). One more here:
http://jinyong.ylib.com.tw/snowtalk/show.asp?no=9603&ch=history
Are you suggesting: Mandarin – 滿大人?
Why don’t you go to a good library in Taiwan and come back with some authorities. You might be able to write a thesis on this, too!
I do come up with some conclusions.
We can say that Mandarin is a mixed product from many northern minority dialects (Mongolians, Muslims, …) over a long period of time. Manchurians contributed a big chunk of it since they hosted the last Dynasty.
Southern dialects, such as Taiwanese, are much closer to the original Han Chinese dialect. I have some supporting evidences: for example, the pronunciation of the Japanese bullet train: 新幹線, and the pronunciation of Korea’s Central Daily News: 中央日報 (they don’t use Chinese characters any more, it’s 중앙일보 now) sounds almost identical as those in Taiwanese, but not in Mandarin. Japan & Korea were influenced by Han Chinese dialect in much early years.
So, back to my original post, the official Chinese language today – Mandarin, was “from” the dialect(s) of northern minorities, not the Han Chinese.
As Juba says, all of the “information” you’re getting is from biased sources, and is wrong. I’m a graduate student at 國立台灣大學﹐中國文學系, so I think I know a thing or two about Chinese history and language. You say that “Taiwanese” (閩南話) is more similar to the ancient Chinese Han dialect or whatever … dude, there were many, many “ancient Chinese Han dialects.” It is true that dialects like Cantonese, and to some extent Taiwanese, are more related to archaic Chinese in that they preserve the “entering tone” (入聲) and have hard consonant endings. However, that doesn’t make Mandarin any less Chinese. The information on the websites you posted is pure rubbish.
To over simplify things, you can split the Chinese language (very roughly) into two major regions: Northern and Southern. Sichuan dialect is very similar to Mandarin as they are part of the same system, and they are mutually intelligible. If your “theory” was true, and Beijing dialect was mainly influenced by the languages of the “northern barbarians,” then how is it that a dialect so far removed from the “northern barbarian” locus of power is still so similar? The “Manchus” (made up of a number of “barbarian” tribes that gradually came together over many years) were influenced and assimilated by the Chinese, adopting their language, culture, philosophy, etc. … not the other way around. While there may be some minor influences from Manchu, they are relatively negligible. What we now know as “Beijing dialect” (北京話) was already near the modern spoken version as early as the Ming Dynasty, before the Manchus ever came into China. If you read any Ming Dynasty vernacular literature you would see that. So, the basic form of Mandarin was already in place by the Ming Dynasty.
The more modern “Guoyu” or “Putonghua” came about during the early years of the Republic when a committee on promulgating a national language was formed. They chose to adopt Beijing dialect as the basis for their “new” language (or more specifically, the dialect that was commonly spoken among college students in Beijing at the time, who were from all over China and had themselves naturally developed a means to communicate with each other, roughly based on the Beijing dialect). The committee members then went through almost every character and voted on what the “standard” pronunciation would be (again, many from the Beijing dialect, but not all). So, “Mandarin”, while based on Beijing dialect, is a “man-made language”. That is in answer to your question on the “origin of Mandarin.”
If you still don’t get it, you probably never will … so I give up. Time to go do something more productive than argue with someone who has “selective hearing.”
Yes, I visited your website. I’m very impressed.
I quit the TI topic cause I found out several authors had posted at other places opinions almost identical to mine. So, someone has to lie if we keep the “fake” argument going – boring! Same thing here… you can have the final say and I don’t mind.
you’re fully supporting my main point that all minorites are as much Chinese as Han people. Manchurians are Chinese. Mongolians are Chinese. Taiwanese are Chinese. The mighty melting pot crushes thorny differences. That was one of my arguments to bash against Independence.
Didn’t I admit that I was wrong about Mandarin being “purely” from Manchurians! Thank you for pointing it out. I just have to confirm it myself. The rest of your post was all described and agreed upon(except the “Sichuan dialect” one) in the links I supplied. So, they are not rubbish.
My formal Chinese history/language education ended in high school like other science major students. 20 years of excil didn’t make the situation any better. But I don’t think I have a problem of selective hearing. I don’t discount things presented in front of me, and I can judge. At first meet, I learned a whole lot from a Brit about 鄭和下西洋 without any attitude of “what do you know about my culture!” However, a lot of heated discussions were there as usual!
That is the exact OPPOSITE of what he is saying … you’re misinterpreting (or just simply not understanding) most of what people are posting here. I find it hard to believe that someone who lived in the States for 10 years and has a Ph.D. has this much trouble following this thread. You say one thing one time, another thing another time, your arguments are all over the place and don’t make much sense. I’m a native speaker of English and I can barely understand half of what you write.
[quote=“tomyang”]you’re fully supporting my main point that all minorites are as much Chinese as Han people. Manchurians are Chinese. Mongolians are Chinese. Taiwanese are Chinese. The mighty melting pot crushes thorny differences. That was one of my arguments to bash against Independence.
[/quote]
We’re having a serious communication problem here … nothing in my posts supports your absurd statement that Manchurians or Mongolians are “Chinese”. What I was talking about was “language” and not “ethnicity”. You seem to love to twist other people’s words to suit your own tastes, or perhaps it’s just because you simply aren’t understanding what people are writing (that would be my guess, since your responses don’t make much sense either). You yourself admit that your education in Chinese history ended at the high school level, so perhaps before you start making lengthy posts passing yourself off as an expert on Chinese history, culture, and language, and making absurd, obviously erroneous statements, you should learn something about it yourself first, or at least know how to search for accurate information. I bet you’d also claim that “China has 5,000 years of history” or some other bullshit like that.
Back to the original question, Outer Mongolia declared independence under Bogdo Gegen Khan, but came THIS CLOSE to being absorbed into the Soviet Union as a republic. (This is the answer to Richard Feynmann’s question, “Whatever happened to Tannu Tuva?”). So why wasn’t it? Because of Yalta. There was a lot on the table at the time, and Mongolia was just one small item to be discussed. Previous postings have gone over that part pretty well.
Remember that until recently, China COULDN’T invade Mongolia because the Soviet Union had troops all over it. Now, China and Russia have reached an agreement not to change the status of Mongolia for at least twenty years. (Does that sound ominous to anybody else but me? Like an “affirming negative” in Sanskrit grammar?) Yes, between oil needs and demographics, Siberia and Mongolia are very vulnerable, even without a formal war between China and Russia.
[quote]Controled by Russia, the Outer Mongolia ruler 活佛 (similar to Tibet’s Lama) declared Independence in 1912, right after Dr. Sun Yi-Shen overthrew Chin Dynasty in 1911. It was such a chaotic era that the new “Republic of China” had her hands so full that she never got a chance to deal with Mongolia. However, China never acknowledged the new “Mongolia” regime. The situation dragged along year afte year… until the end of WWII. Senile Franklin Roosevelt sold Mongolia to Stalin in Yalta meetings, 1945. US “forced” China (CKS) to sign this “friendly treaty” with USSR on Aug 14, in which China agreed to let Mongolia determine her fate via a referendum. [/quote]As far as I know, the Bogd Khan declared independence already in 1911, just before the collapse of the Qing dynasty. One reason (apart from pressure from Mongolian seperatists) might have been that Outer Mongolia was on the brink of massive Han immigration, something that already had lead to many problems in Inner Mongolia. In 1915 China and Russia signed the treaty of Khiagta, granting Mongolia independence except in foreign and military matters. Yuan Shikai invaded Outer Mongolia in 1918, but chinese troops were thrown out in 1921 in the wake of fights between White and Red Russians. From that time on, China de facto had completely lost its influence on Outer Mongolia, and the Mongolians genuinely didn’t want it back. At the conference in Yalta the Allies agreed that the Question of Outer Mongolia should be solved via a referendum (and that Inner Mongolia should return to China, and Russia gets special rights regarding Manchurian railways and ports). The referendum took place in 1947, with officially not a single vote against independence. That might indeed have been engineered, and if the same referendum would have been held today, the turnout might be closer to 99% pro-independence (as in real life there are always people who get confused by ballots 
). Please don’t forget that back in 1947, Outer Mongolia had a stable government and China was in the midst of civil war. But on the other hand, some events and developments in Inner Mongolia might have made Outer Mongolians even more glad that they are indendent.
[quote]
Well, we all know by 1949, CKS lost the entire China to Mao and went to Taiwan… He totally pissed off on Russia on helping Mao and he declared the 1945 “friendly treaty” invalid. Also, Russia totally engineered the referendum. Most Mongolians didn’t know they’ve got a new country! Even today, our ROC government in Taiwan is still in deep denial and won’t officially admit this blunder. Take a look at any “Map of China” printed in Taiwan! Outer Mongolia is still part of China!!
[/quote]That reminds me of maps of Europe that from early post - WW2 West germany (until the early 70s, I think). They usually showed all the previously German lands east of Oder and Neisse as part of Germany - ‘currently under Polish administration’. Adapting to reality sometimes takes time. But as far as I know, even the ROC has now acknowledged that outer Mongolia is independent.
Right, but I think diplomatic relations completely deterioted during the 60s and got only reestablished in the 90s
Ironically, the Outer Mongolians might be the only people in the former Soviet bloc that are actually somehow thankful to the Soviet Union and have kept a positive image of Russia
[quote]
China, like any other big countries in the world, has many minorities. General Chinese people include Hans(central part), Manchurians, Mongols, Hues (N & NW Muslims), Tibetans (I know you’d like to argue about this), Miaos(SW), and numerous others.[/quote]Like Koreans, Tadshik, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, just to name a few
[quote]
Were it not for the fact that CKS fled to Taiwan and all the aftermaths, Taiwanese won’t be treated as “minorities”. Anyway, these minorites all have separatists seeking independency, but do you know many of these Chinese “minorities” took turns in history to rule the same old big “China”! The late Chin 清 Dynasty (1644-1911) was all Manchurian rules. I kid you not, Mandarin – the daily Chinese language today, is the dialect of minority Manchurians! Yuan Dynasty (1279-1368) was created by Mongolians (元世祖 忽必烈: Grandson of Genghis Khan). Dynasties of Jin 金 (1115-1234), West Xia(1038-1227), Liao(916-1125), and even big portion of blood in Tang (618-907) were all Muslim work.
They were & are part of “China”. Why would an Emperor ever want to be independent from his own domain!? [/quote]
Of course, by that logic Mongolia would also be part of Russia, since the Golden Horde Khanate was formed by Mongols in the 13th century. Or part of Iran or Iraq, since they also formed th Il - Khanate. Germany would be part of Italy, since it was Germanic peoples that settled in Rome after the collapse of the West Roman empire, and maybe Greece would be part of Turkey.
[quote]
The Independence of outer Mongolia badly mared the spirits of Democracy[/quote]Actually, independence is just what the people of Outer Mongolia want. They neither want to end up like people in Tannu-Tuva nor like Inner Mongolians.
See you
http://www.e56.com.cn/publish/dianzi/html/m212.htm
A lot of info about Mogolia is here.
And I think the reason PRC let Mogolia go is that China is a “weak” countries after WWII and civil war in 50’s. PRC is a “powerful” coutry now, so they won’t let Tibet or Taiwan go freely.
Besides, Mogolia has been a “state” since Chin dynasty.
The “Han” China don’t really have much control over Mogolia.
Speaking of Mongolia and maps, I remember when the December 1988
National Geographic gave out a free world map with each magazine; the GIO took each copy sold in Taiwan and stamped on it “Outer Mongolia is a territory of the Republic of China” .