Why do foreigners like A-Bian?

[quote=“Erica1973”]what will you all foreigners do if the Communists take over Taiwan by force?[/quote]I hope to have enough warning to get out of here before then. Hopefully Stragbasher can smuggle me across the border.

I don’t know. What could we do? What will all you Taiwanese do?[/quote]
I don’t think that we can do anything at all. But I assume that most foreigners will flee back to their countries if that happens. Or will you stay for your taiwanese wives or husbands?

I don’t know. What could we do? What will all you Taiwanese do?[/quote]

I don’t think that we can do anything at all. But I assume that most foreigners will flee back to their countries if that happens. Or will you stay for your Taiwanese wives or husbands?[/quote]

Whether I stay or go, I will be with my Taiwanese wife.

I heard the DPP got fined for having a foreigner stump for them at a rally. Think I’ll go around doing the same untill I run them broke. I think the reason most foreigners would support the DPP is that its the more liberal party while the KMT-PFP coalition is more conservative. Though the KMT does have a history of authoritarianism I think most Taiwanese know that those days are over and that probably doesn’t factor strongly into the ‘middle of the road’ voters decision. But for those of us opinionated enough to voice our ideas, it still would. Add to that the fact that many of the foreigners here are quite young (below 40ish) and younger people tend to vote more often for liberal candidates.
Myself (at 28 y/o) would vote Blue, as I am a realist and know that Chen and the PFP will only further isolate Taiwan. Also, I don’t think that Chen is good for business, which is the best thing that Taiwan has got going for it now. His liberal enviormenalist policies shut down the No. 4 nuclear reactor which has hurt the economy. But, as we are not locals are virtually asured a job here (provided we have the qualifications: look foreign) that isn’t a big factor in our ‘decision.’
Chen’s gone too far in trying to remove Chinese culture from Taiwan as well. I never think it’s a good idea to throw away something without having anything to replace it with.

And incase anyone cares:
This is my 100th post!!
Bill

I don’t know. What could we do? What will all you Taiwanese do?[/quote]
I don’t think that we can do anything at all. But I assume that most foreigners will flee back to their countries if that happens. Or will you stay for your Taiwanese wives or husbands?[/quote]

So long as they keep the English schools open, it hardly matters to me. I’ve lived in China and I didn’t get repressed. If Taiwan is invaded the PRC will likely set things up with a Hong Kong SAR model. I’d imagine the economy would take a dip but so long as the reds didn’t run it into the ground I see no reason to leave.

Erica: This foreigner will be staying here until forced to leave. I certainly can’t speak for all foreigners, but I know a number of ‘lifers’ here who feel the same way I do. Taiwan is my adopted home and I don’t plan on leaving if Taiwan gets into trouble.

I think it is very unlikely that China will attack Taiwan.

Many foreigners will leave Taiwan. Many did just after the Sept, 21, 1999 earthquake.
Some will stay, depending on what happens. If it is a blockade, some will stick it out; if it is an invasion, most will leave except the profiteers, whomever they might be.
More importantly is the real sense that I and many others who have lived and observed the Taiwanese for years get, that the Taiwanese won’t fight to defend Taiwan in any meaningful or lengthy manner.
About four years ago or so I remember first hearing that 2005 would be the year that the Chicoms would have what they considered to be the necessary military advantage to either have Taipei capitulate or for Beijing to take the island by force.
What do you think the nearly 500 ballistic missiles targeting Taiwan are for? Big bird perches?

[quote]I guess everyone wants to fuck everyone else…hmm could be a good idea. However, under the DPP the economy has plummeted. If the KMT did one good thing it was to build up the economy. Quite frankly it’s hard to say if Taiwanese people, like anyone else care who’s in office as long as they have a job, home and food on the table.

under the DPP the economy has plummeted. If the KMT did one good thing it was to build up the economy.[/quote]

I hope these posters will read about the economic history of Taiwan some day. The economy grew with the KMT in power – it presided rather than guided. The KMT opposed that opening and that growth, especially at the beginning, when the US put pressure on them to open, and they did not. Later the KMT realized what good political capital it was, and so began to take steps to redraw it as a government initiated project and based its political legitimacy on Taiwan’s success. But the fact was that KMT bureaucrats opposed an open economy because it threatened their power, and the US withheld a portion of aid in 1960 because KMT opening was too miserly.

The flexibility and saavy of Taiwanese business was due entirely to the skill of Taiwanese entreprenuers. KMT businessmen generally went into businesses stabilized by government policy – fertilizer, concrete, etc – and heavily linked to US AID flows… The toys, textiles, tools, electronic goods and computers we all know were done by Taiwanese who were forced into what the KMT consider risky, even marginal fields. The KMT gave these small businesses no help whatsoever, then later stole the credit for their hard work, and plundered them for cash as well. See Neil Jacoby’s US Aid to Taiwan for the sad story of how the US had to force the KMT to permit Taiwanese businesses to participate in US aid programs and in economic growth – the KMT’s initial impulse was to shut them out of economic growth process, and deny them economic power. Taiwan grew despite, not because of, KMT policy. The real Taiwan miracle was that the economy grew under such parasitic misgovernment.

Vorkosigan

On Dec. 1 we had this CNA report:

Here are just a few example from late last year showing what Lien must think is wrong with the economy:

Taiwan’s exports and imports will register double-digit growth in 2004, according to a report carried out by the Chung-Hwa Institution for Economic Research and released Dec. 22 by the Bureau of Foreign Trade (BOFT).
The report estimated that exports in 2003 could reach US$142.666 billion, up 9.24 percent, while imports will reach US$123.619 billion, up 9.85 percent.

Taiwan’s real estate market will remain bullish for the coming year as the end of a booming 2003 approaches, business sources forecast Dec. 21.
According to statistics compiled by the Ministry of the Interior, house transfer dealings for the whole of 2003 are expected to total around 334,000, slightly up by 4.4 percent over the 2002 level.

Taiwan’s economy is expected to recover moderately with gross domestic product (GDP) growing 4.35 percent in 2004, according to a report released Dec. 18 by the Institute of Economics of the Academia Sinica.
The report also predicted that real private consumption and real private
investment will grow 2.39 percent and 10.13 percent, respectively, in
2004.

Taiwan posted a trade surplus of US$2.19 billion in November, the highest since August of last year, according to statistics released Dec. 12 by Taiwan’s Central Bank of China.

Standard & Poor’s Ratings Services affirmed Dec. 11 its AA-/A-1+ credit ratings on Taiwan and the outlook remains stable.

With the economy turning around, some 87 percent of enterprises in Taiwan are planning to hire more staff, according to the results of a survey released Nov. 29 by the online human resources company
www.104.com.tw.

Export orders received by local manufacturers reached an all-time high of US$16.14 billion in October 2003, marking a 19.94 percent rise from the year-earlier level, according to official statistics.

Taiwan’s unemployment rate has continued to decline over the past several months, with the monthly figure expected to further drop to 4.8 percent in October from September’s 4.9 percent, Lehman Brothers said Nov. 17.
(CNA reports)
I could go on, but you get the gist…if it’s the ecomony, stupid, it’s Lien that hasn’t got a clue.

Where can I get a copy of Chairman Mao’s Little Red Book.
At last those capitalists will pay for their crimes, ay comrade?

I can’t see why I would choose to leave, but the invaders might well decide to throw me out. I’m sure they have my name on file as someone who has spoken of them in negative terms, not to mention as someone who has served the government here for many years.

If the invasion does happen, it will be a very interesting time to be here. If one survives the initial bombardment, one should have a fairly good chance of staying alive. Life could be pretty difficult for a time, but it would be a rich experience to observe the mainland Chinese taking over the island and a hugely significant episode of 21st century history in the making.

However, if the invasion resulted in war breaking out between the PRC and the US, I might want to think again about staying. In that eventuality, even though I’m not American, I’m sure I’d have cause to fear nothing but the worst from the invading forces.

[quote=“Feiren”]Poagao:

I think foreigners who have been here since the late 1980s tend to be pro-DPP. Taiwan was very close to being a police state at the time, and the DPP/Dangwai movement were clearly ‘on the right side of history.’ Today’s KMT is much less ideological than the KMT of the 1970s and 1980s, but many of us remember that its current leadership were mid-level party hacks in those days whereas DPP leaders like Lin Yixiong and Chen were getting their families murdered or crippled for daring to stand up.

Foreigners who have arrived since the mid-1990s have a very different perception of Taiwan. They identify Taipei’s internationalization with the English-speaking, which tends to be overwhelming pro-blue especially up in Taipei. They also quickly absorb ingrained prejudices against the Taiwanese majority from that elite and are uncomfortable with the rising tide of Taiwanese nationalism.[/quote]

Myself and some other westerners I know of who arrived in the 80s would seem to be exceptions to this theory. Thing is, everyone assumes that the KMT is going to sell out Taiwan, but it was the KMT who kept it out of the communists’ hands for the past 50 years; why would they sell out now? (yeah I know, because “they’re EVIL!”…but that doesn’t answer anything about the disparity of opinion between foreigners and Taiwanese on the subject). It seems to me the biggest threat to our present dejure independence doesn’t come from the perceived selling out of the KMT but rather the DPP forcing China’s hand and bringing about an abrupt and definitely unpeaceful end to our independence. This may gall those who feel that ideals are more important than practical solutions, but for those with no foreign passport the threat probably means something different than to those who do have such options.

Why would they sell out Taiwan? Because it’s their most plausible way of hanging onto power in the future, given the impending demographic changes (death of old soldiers) which bode ill for their party. If China appoints them unelected governors, or if more “mainlanders” can be taken into Taiwan through immigration, they could have a new lease on life.

[quote=“Jack Burton”][quote=“blueface666”]
" The PRC’s strategy seeks to use its long-range missiles to deter U.S. leaders from aiding our friends and allies in Asia, including Taiwan, by holding U.S. cities hostage. During the 1996 Taiwan Straits crisis, a People’s Liberation Army general stated that the United States would not be willing to trade Los Angeles for Taipei."

fas.org/nuke/control/abmt/ne … 10-abm.htm[/quote]

This is probably a reference to Mao’s policy. He accepted the risk of trading US cities one for one with Chinese cities, because he figured that in such an “attrition” war, Chinese populations would still outnumber the enemy’s.[/quote]
Huh? During Mao’s time, the PRC’s capabilities for attacking any of the 50 states of the US were absolutely ZERO. At that time, they did not have ICBMs or bombers that could reach as far as the US.

Comments about trading SF or LA for Taiwan were made in the early nineties by mouthy PLA officers. Every now and then, they’ll spout out the same bullshit. Only since the late eighties or early nineties has the PRC had ICBMs capable of hitting the west coast, and the number that they do have is only enough to serve as a deterent. Not being a fan of California, my opinion is that they can have SF and LA, and then we’ll just take Beijing, Shanghai, Xiamen, Guangzhou, Tianjin, the Three Gorges Dam, Qingdao and anything else we feel would settle the score. Keeping their grubby paws off of Taiwan would just be a side benefit. It’s about time Wal-Mart started doing more sourcing from India, anyway.

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Why would you say that? In my opinion, the type of people who are willing to brush aside the KMT’s bloody past are willing to do so not because they think the KMT is now somehow a reformed party, but because they just don’t care what the KMT did wrong in the first place. These are the types of people who think that everything the KMT’s hooligans did was justified. Many of these people don’t give a damn if 99% of Taiwan is pro-independence and is willing to indicate such in a referendum. If only 1% of Taiwan is still blue, some of these people will still want to drag the rest of Taiwan back into China kicking, screaming and almost certainly bleeding.

How have they isolated Taiwan? Please give an example, preferably one other than the tired old “the DPP is cutting Taiwan off from the rest of the world because they won’t let Taiwan use Hanyu Pinyin” rant.

What do you mean “the best thing Taiwan has got going for it now”? If CSB were so bad for business, then surely business wouldn’t be the best thing Taiwan has going for it now. Yes, CSB’s economic policies are to the left of the KMT’s, but the KMT’s corruption have hindered economic development just as much or more than any of CSB’s “anti-business” policies.

[quote=“GOPBill”]His liberal enviormenalist policies shut down the No. 4 nuclear reactor which has hurt the economy.
[/quote]
How was this bad for the economy? If it has somehow been bad for business, then why was it not a worthwhile trade off?

This is a completely subjective statement. Who is to say Chen is trying to get rid of too much mainland culture? You say there’s nothing good to replace it. While I’m no big fan of Taiwan’s local culture myself, I think your above statement does nothing but expose your own prejudices and reactionary views. I hope you’re not trying to pass it off as some sort of “analysis.” :unamused:

Why would China ever invade Taiwan?

They have everything to lose and nothing to gain. Taiwan is theirs for the taking at anytime. An invasion will bring about incredible disruption to their current economic development. It would piss off the Americans and Europeans so badly and to what ends really. The US may come to Taiwan’s aid, but to whose ultimate advantage. It’s not like the US can occupy China. It would just be a stand off which the Chinese would eventually win, because there they are looming as big as you like 20 KM off shore forever.

Even if Taiwan declared its independence who is going to recognize it and bring about a war which they cannot ultimately win.

The future of Taiwan is inextricably linked to China. Ultimately the whole thing is as likely as not to be resolved by a federation of sorts, not by armed conflict and that might be 20 or 30 years down the road even further. At which time, China will be an economic Goliath and Taiwan will be so close to China economically that they’ll be asking China to return to the fold.

I am looking forward to some major looting. I’ve always wanted a 42" flat-screen TV, among other things…(Don’t worry Richardm, there will be enough to go around).

Now you see, the real reason behind such feverish support of A-Bian is revelaled here.

iol.co.za/index.php?click_id … 3&set_id=1

How to deny the magnetism of his [quote]“cute… startlingly dark eyes… cheeky smile, and… priceless political gift of making young women voters go weak at the knees.”[/quote]

But the KMT need not fear, for there is always the temptation of

More lines:

and back to the dancing dolls

[quote]"They are very cute. I also bought a Lien Chan doll in 2000 but it didn’t come with James Soong.

“The old one can sing and talk but not dance. This one is much livelier,” she said excitedly.[/quote]

Hee hee! “Ready to wear”! Why does this seem so funny?

yeah, but it’s also a plausible way to a bullet in the back of the head