Why do men get bashed for no reason these days?


Exactly my point! We do not need Western feminism in Taiwan, we have managed well without it.


Interesting, and well noted. I’d argue that some level of gender norming makes sense in a military context though. Certainly there are valuable roles to be played by women in the military, and the inclusion of willing female volunteers will result in a stronger overall force. To have blanket standards would be counterproductive. Then again, certain roles should require higher standards. I’m sure the military is doing what it needs to do to get the maximum value out of its volunteer force. The Army seems to think it is


I think @Andrew0409 is looking at this backward. He mentioned Neo-Marxism earlier. Indeed ordinarily we observe symptoms, to make a diagnosis and then make a well informed decision on that the prescription should be.

However, Neo-Marxism is the prescription. It is justified by use of Conflict theories and Critical theory which uses grievances of oppressed groups as leverage to gain advantage and material gain.

One can be observant and sympathetic to many that are perhaps even in the majority of cases talking about genuine grievances (which I described as symptoms) while at the same time view the prescribed “solution” as highly cynical, divisive and not at all the best way for a society to achieve a healthy status for everyone, including the minorities.


You seem to be implying these roles would be different to the roles men perform.

And in fact that’s how women have been traditionally employed in armies: in roles that suit their particular talents (espionage and intelligence, for example). It makes a lot of sense.

However it completely contradicts your general position, ie., that any differences between men and women are purely a result of some flaw in their upbringing. In that view, there is absolutely no reason why a woman can’t do 40 press-ups the same as her male equivalent. Which is precisely what the British Army expects.

Frankly, a woman (or a man) in the military who can only manage 17 press-ups is not “serving their country”: they’re at best a waste of space, and at worst a liability who’s likely to get someone else killed in a combat situation.

Very true. It’s easy to conflate the two. I’m probably guilty of that.


I don’t think @tempogain took that position in here that I know of. Unless there’s another thread.


Possibly - I might be dredging up some previous conversation. Or I might even be getting him confused with someone else :slight_smile:

If I’ve mistakenly tarred tempogain with the ‘everyone is inherently equal’ brush I’ll remove the reference to him. Nevertheless the argument itself is still represented by the guys in the red corner, even if tempogain isn’t standing there.


It’s simple. Anyone should have an equal shot at any role in the military but only if they meet the requirements. Making the requirements meet them is a fool’s gambit in a dangerous world.


I’ve thought equality of men and women in taiwan, ah, not only in Taiwan, but in Asia, came from western femunism mostly.

Btw, female president does not necessarily mean men and women have the same right. India, Pakistan, Philippines, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, South Korea, Myanmar, Singapore have had female presidents or prime ministers. Not all the countries have equality at the level of Taiwan.


Not really. Men perform all kinds of roles. I don’t believe the spectrum of roles for either sex would have an identical mix, but I don’t think the roles would differ.

And in fact that’s how women have been traditionally employed in armies: in roles that suit their particular talents (espionage and intelligence, for example). It makes a lot of sense.

I think there are plenty of roles where women can serve, and they are doing so in the US. About 15% of the US military is female now from a quick stat check.

However it completely contradicts your general position, ie., that any differences between men and women are purely a result of some flaw in their upbringing.

As @Andrew0409 aptly points out, I’ve never said that, I don’t think.

I doubt it. It’s not trench warfare out there anymore.

I don’t think it’s that simple. It depends on how the requirements have been structured and what people are actually capable of. You could be right depending on how those variables play out.


Sure, I understand what you’re saying, and with some reservations I agree. There are going to be more men doing this thing than women, and more women doing that thing than men, but for any given role there will be some men and some women. Is that about right?

Fair enough, I might be confusing you with someone else. I’m really just arguing against that particular hardline position (“everything should be 50/50”) rather than with you personally.

But neither is it just pressing buttons and flying drones. There’s a reason the British Army expects top-1% fitness. There are many different scenarios other than trench warfare that demand abnormal strength and endurance. Carrying a wounded colleague out of a firefight would be an obvious example, but there are all sorts of instances where the machines aren’t working and the only available option is muscle power. Apart from anything else, simply reaching that level of fitness demonstrates the level of dedication that a soldier needs to survive.

People are capable of a lot. I was amazed to discover that the world record for running a marathon is just over 2 hours. That’s absolutely incredible. I can’t even maintain that pace for two minutes. But that’s where training (and a genetic gift) gets you. Those women who wimp out at press-up #17 (we’re talking about 20-year-olds here) just aren’t trying very hard. Simple as that. They haven’t earned their place.


When exactly were women “considered objects”?


17 press ups is a joke. End of.

Bar should be 17 pull ups. That would demonstrate intent.


Andrew I also respect you and value your opinions, but I am not making numbers up. I am a reporter. The reality of Taiwanese women in the workplace is a well documented fact. There is plenty of information out there. I also have many Taiwanese female friends and what discrimination they face is also obvious to me. As a foreign woman with friends married with kids her, we also encounter plenty of dinosaur judges during divorce proceedings and assault cases. It is not oppression, it is downright unfair treatment.


Sounds right!

I believe in the ideal of equality, but that doesn’t mean that everyone is literally equal in every sense, to me. I’m sure we’ve talked about such things before.

That’s great as an ideal, but may not be the most practical approach. 15% of the US military is now women. I don’t know what the fitness standards are now, and if everyone meets identical standards and they are able to meet all of their personnel requirements, great. If they don’t have ample volunteers to meet all of their requirements, then it behooves them to use the clay that they have available, and work to put the right person in the right job.

If someone more suitable is available, then they should be taken. But I doubt that they always have that luxury.


“Gaslighting”. . .

Because if you don’t believe in the one true religion there must be some sinister explanation.


Andrew is 100% right. Not sure what to make of his critics.


Again I know there are probably dinosaurs judges knowing how Taiwan is. But I may have been a little harsh as I’m short tempered and sometimes get frustrated. So let me apologize if I can off extremely rude.

However, as I’ve mentioned my mother is also a foreign spouse here. And I spent most of my time and childhood with her. Perhaps it was easier for her because she is Asian. And I’m not saying you’re lying, I just found your explanation of what I asked as evidence lacking substance. I do agree any mistreatment should have consequences for people in power, regardless if it’s against men, women or anyone else. But Im still pretty firm on my stance That in 2018 now. Things have changed and women today in Taiwan enjoy all the freedoms of life men do. That’s not to say incidences of discrimination doesn’t happen. I know it does. But I’m more against this picture of toxic masculinity and demonizing men for the means of women’s right if you get what I mean.

Feel like any criticism of women’s issues not being taken as fact face a misogynistic label and ostracized. Men have been allies with women in women’s rights and to let a few bad men and few bad incidences characterize an entire gender is wrong. And I feel like men’s issue have been put aside for the more mainstream and popular women’s issues as well not that one is more important than the other. But we face a certain inequality as well.


I am glad for your mother but for my fellow foreign spouses it is a real legal grind. You are literally at the mercy of the husband with no legal recourse. You can be beaten up by a husband and the cops have no power to intervene and it is difficult that such aggression will be taken into consideration for a fair divorce. You will still lose the children, and never see them again, maybe when they grow up. At the least, if you consider all paperwork for anything pertinent to residence or NHI or bank has to be done with the husband or family accompanying, it is very difficult to have some financial independence and freedom. That has been my experience seeing at least 10 foreign women in the course of a few years.

The day I decided I would never marry a Taiwanese guy unless the law changed was when I saw the same thing happen to my well educated and from wealthy families Taiwanese fellow students. It blew my mind and broke my heart that they lost their kids too.


Has happened to plenty of men in western countries.


Are you saying courts here rule in favor of men in general?

And I find what you’re saying understandable and as a immigrant/foreigner once myself I know there are many struggles. I do acknowledge there are a lot of bullshit non Taiwan natives face here. I’ve seen some ridiculous ones myself like landlords refusing to rent to my girlfriend and having some landlords saying I need to sign with her or they will give her a higher rent. I do think Taiwan needs to be more welcoming to people coming here. I just found how I think you were explained it as this awful oppressive patriarchy men are doing as a baseless judgement and also doesn’t allow me to contribute to any possible solution.