Why do my Taiwanese co-workers ask me why I want to come to Taiwan

I’m Taiwanese and I can tell u I used to think like that (in that Taiwan is nothing but doom and gloom). But now that I’m posted to Haiti and every 6 months when I return home on break I find Taiwan a paradise. In my 3 years in Haiti I’ve witnessed the 2010 tragic earthquake, cholera outbreak (caught one myself in January this year), Huirricane Sandy (serious flooding up in Cap-Haitien), and the recent mass shooting by ex-combattants in Port-au-Prince.

I can’t speak for the majority of Taiwanese but I believe the problem lies in the fact that we tend to have a very low esteem of our country when compared to Japan, Singapore, HK and S. Korea (incl. the West) in terms of paycheck, quality of life, etc…Taiwanese love to compare and so it makes no wonder why we are often inquisitive as to why people from developed countries would wanna come to Taiwan to earn minimum pay. Just my 2 cents.

No offense but Haiti is one of the poorest countries in the world which was also hit by one of the worlds most devastating earthquakes, anywhere will be paradise compared to that.
I agree Taiwanese lack self esteem and patriotism, more self esteem would make people value Taiwan more and look after the environment.
Lack of patriotism is refreshing sometimes because as foreigners in other countries like Korea or China this can translate into full blown racism.

I note that you call yourself something Cali but then say you are Taiwanese , it’s a bit odd.

Foreigners in Taiwan don’t earn minimum pay either, and many have good reasons to live in Taiwan such as running businesses, learning Chinese, living with family, professional teachers etc. Some just like the freedom and to escape their past, that’s a good enough reason itself.

[quote=“headhonchoII”]No offense but Haiti is one of the poorest countries in the world which was also hit by one of the worlds most devastating earthquakes, anywhere will be paradise compared to that.
I agree Taiwanese lack self esteem and patriotism, more self esteem would make people value Taiwan more and look after the environment.
Lack of patriotism is refreshing sometimes because as foreigners in other countries like Korea or China this can translate into full blown racism.

I note that you call yourself something Cali but then say you are Taiwanese , it’s a bit odd.

Foreigners in Taiwan don’t earn minimum pay either, and many have good reasons to live in Taiwan such as running businesses, learning Chinese, living with family, professional teachers etc. Some just like the freedom and to escape their past, that’s a good enough reason itself.[/quote]

I’m Taiwanese alright, except that I was born and raised in Togo (W. Africa). Lived there 'cuz my pop was once the Military Attache with the Taiwanese Embassy between '70-'72. He’s been there ever since they ended diplomatic relations with Taiwan. Stayed and opened up a mini-supermarket until his death last year. OpelCali stands for Opel Calibra, my first beloved car when I purchased it used in '01.

Sorry for my misinterpretation. The reason I mentioned it was because of the many Taiwanese who acquire a foreign passport and suddenly are not Taiwanese anymore. I’m sure the people in Haiti appreciate your contribution.
Your father sounds interesting and you must have had a unique childhood, sorry to hear he has passed on.

All this time, I thought that Jeff Foxworthy was a lighthearted, G-rated comic. Now I come to hear that he’s one of the most viciously racist performers of all time!

Taiwanese people think that the incomes that they make for the work that they do sucks here and that they could earn more if they lived and worked abroad. They don’t factor the cost of living into that equation, less the cost of owning and maintaining a vehicle, the lack of demand for their particular trade, etc.

They would make more abroad, at least the skilled and professional ones, usually a lot more.

They’d make money here too, if they have the same professional skills. The issue is a lot of the wage slaves have absolutely no skill so they probably deserve the low wages they get. I’ve read that blue collar workers make more because most of the jobs they do requires skill. Even crap shuidian makes more than office workers. Maybe they won’t make as much as in the West, but they’ll still make more than the “average”. Having a college degree isn’t counted as a skill.

Western countries already have lots of people who sit in an office and screw around on Facebook all day. They wouldn’t need to import more from Taiwan.

The other thing to consider, even aside from the cost of living and so on, is just how real the wealth in Western countries is. A lot of it’s funded by debt, whether we’re talking personal spending or government spending, be that infrastructure or pensions. It’s all very well to say there’s a higher standard of living in the West, but what if it’s simply not sustainable? Many people under the age of forty in the West are going to be royally screwed when they are in their sixties. They won’t have any money and their governments won’t have any money. There’s going to be nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. Once we take out the effects of technology, their standards of living are almost certainly going to be far worse than those of previous generations. In this respect, I don’t see there being a big difference between Taiwanese and many Westerners. The only difference is that the West is already fully developed, and it’s currently funding that by living off cultural and economic capital accumulated over previous decades and centuries. That capital will run out eventually though, and what then? I remember entering Madrid a decade ago, and thinking it looked like a third tier Latin American city out of a movie. Everything looked kind of tired and just slightly shabby, as though there’d been a long period of slow decay where either individuals or the government just hadn’t been able to maintain everything 100%. I thought to myself, “Wow, this place was once the richest, most powerful place on the planet. All that gold and silver looted from the New World. Look at it now.” That’s coming to many a Western city.

Thing about going to China, which the OP stated, is somewhat true, what I’ve found is the most aggressive (usually money oriented Taiwanese) have moved to Australia, Europe, Canada, or the U.S. (or they desperately want to if they speak English or another language for some reason more women than men want to leave as well). Those who can’t get that far at least go to China hoping to make “real money” as wages in Beijing and Shanghai are higher than Taipei. Many come back here with that money and by homes (and many men are starting to bring wives back who are not so Sa Jiao - 撒嬌 , but can actually “make a dollar out of 15 cent” and take care of themselves).

I myself am moving to China soon, they are paying not only for travel but a two bedroom apartment (no roommates). The wage is much better than in Taiwan as compared to living costs. Hell even English teachers there are living better, they get apartments and plane tickets too, and I know a guy who is teaching some brat kids in Taiwan who quit and went to China (he has a Master’s) and is teaching at a small university. Only thing in China is people are more aggressive and small businesses try to rip you off (but the culture is really like Taiwanese on steroids), but they have more money to throw about, their economy is growing (not stagnant). It is like a “new frontier”. So if I were a Taiwanese working 10-12 hours a day at some crap job for a salary that is not worth the effort…if I had motivation and some talent I would also be trying to get the hell out. People vote with their feet. Most people don’t leave their country because they are “so in love with another culture” they leave for money or more freedom/opportunity. Most of the talented Taiwanese who left Taiwan for university never came back. Why would they? Come back for what?

After spending some time in Taiwan, I see it as a “dead-end” place with ineffective politics, stupid economic policies, and a lot of people who just accept whatever someone gives them and never questions. One thing I can say about Mainlanders is they are not like that. Even living under communism in an oppressive state, there are thousands of riots a year. ft.com/cms/s/0/9ee6fa64-25b5 … z2Gw9fk2DI They won’t just lay down for bad conditions and say nothing. In this way Taiwanese can learn something from their cousins across the strait (they might also review the U.S. Robber Baron age and how American and Europeans fought for better living conditions, Confucianist bowing to authority be damned).

Europe and America are unsustainable… President Obama is raising taxes, imposing all kinds of stupid laws (as a knee jerk reaction) and not really addressing the root of their problem, and Europe invariably follows America whatever their economic policy may be. EU is still facing that debt problem and it’s definitely not the paradise that many Taiwanese think it is, not to mention it is very very hard to get a job there.

China may not be such a bad idea but I really need to think this through, and even if I decide to want to go there, how can I get in? Can a Taiwanese simply show up and find a job? Or do I need to work for a crappy Taiwanese boss for a few years before I can jump?

[quote=“Taiwan Luthiers”]Europe and America are unsustainable… President Obama is raising taxes, imposing all kinds of stupid laws (as a knee jerk reaction) and not really addressing the root of their problem, and Europe invariably follows America whatever their economic policy may be. EU is still facing that debt problem and it’s definitely not the paradise that many Taiwanese think it is, not to mention it is very very hard to get a job there.

China may not be such a bad idea but I really need to think this through, and even if I decide to want to go there, how can I get in? Can a Taiwanese simply show up and find a job? Or do I need to work for a crappy Taiwanese boss for a few years before I can jump?[/quote]

I disagree, Europe does not follow America. Europe is much more socialist (even the UK, which is probably the closest nation to us, is far to the left of America, Obama’s policies in most European nations would be considered “right wing”).

Europe is not hard to get a job, let me tell you a secret. I lived in and worked in Switzerland, one of the most competitive economies and “hard to get in” places. I worked in IT and wages were very high, I made 50% more than I made in the U.S. for the same type of position. Why? They don’t let in Asians (especially Indians) which tend to drop the wages (as they do in Singapore, where IT non-upper level managements jobs pay like shit).

It is just hidden racism, there is a lot of anti-foreign backlash, a lot of Western Europeans don’t even like the Eastern European (EU) legal immigrants, let alone a lot of Middle Easterns, North Africans, and Asians. Switzerland is the first place that I worked, with no Asians. None. IN America, I always worked with Asians, especially Indians from Tamilnadu.

I’m not white, but I"m American, and I was told by many recruiters, 'it is easier for an American to get a work visa than a Chinese or Indian"…that’s the reality right now. Yes, the economy also sucked, I lived there 1.5 years ago…when things were not great, but not as bad as today. Europeans, on average, still live at a higher living standard than Taiwanese (well maybe not the Portuguese or Southern Italians, Greeks) but most of Western Europe does. They are not suffering as much as the news makes it out.

My complaint with Taiwan is it does not have to copy the U.S. or Europe, but when America was at it’s best in the 1950’s and 1960’s…it was still better than Taiwan, because almost 50 years before that Americans made strong labor unions, often fought (physically) with hired thugs from corporations trying to break up strikes,

Still, compare Taiwan to Asia. When I first visited Taiwan in 2002, it was richer than Korea, but now poorer. Why? They did not diversify their economy. Taiwan is a one or two “trick pony” they got good at “one or two things” and then stopped. They became the best in the world at semi-conductor technology, and they did a lot of OEM export to Japan, the West, (and now China). Then they sat on their ass and didn’t develop many of their own brands like South Korea. The entire economy was and is still built off of cheap labor and they are losing competitiveness every year to Southeast Asia and China. If you don’t build your own brands like Korea, you will never own the entire market chain, that is where the money is “design”, not manufacturing someone else’s stuff. Yes I know, Taiwan has Asus, Acer, HTC…but not much else, if you compare that to similar sized countries in Europe, it is not saying much.

My belief is this is the difference between Chinese culture and Japanese and Korean culture. Japanese and Koreans trust each other and have real national pride. They will build large companies with economy of scale, make and support their own brands. The government will work closely with their corporations to help them compete. Not in Taiwan.

In Taiwan, it is a small but more sophisticated China. NO one trust each other, so few businesses can grow beyond a “family level”. People don’t want to take risk, they want the easy way, it is easy to make someone’s established product than develop your own, that is the “quick money”…and keep it all in the family…only trust your family, don’t expand your business beyond. Everyone wants to be boss [老闆], but no one has a clue how to manage [管理]…all micromanagement and stupid useless rule making to show their power and control 權力和控制, so everyone can :bow: But what are they really accomplishing, Taiwan’s efficiency per work hour is lower than almost every nation in the West, because the management style is asinine.

If I were Taiwanese I would study closely what Western people did in the 19th and early 20th century to demand and implement better working conditions. Don’t tell me it is not possible or not a good idea, thanks to these Western people, who literally fought and died in strikes, demanded their rights in court the idea of a 5 day work weak, vacation time, paid holidays, etc is a universal global standards in any developed nation. Taiwanese can do more, but they have to be more aggressive.

As far as working in China, there are many Taiwanese and Chinese companies. You are Chinese, look into it, there is plenty of info…ask people…use your 關係 (kuanhsi), if not…apply for jobs and talk to recruiters, do something many Taiwanese never do "think outside the box [條條框框].

So many Taiwanese have told me they loved some country in Europe or America, or they studied there, and they think those places are the way they are because they are “rich”, but they don’t understand this is false. These nations were not always rich, they are the way they are because of their culture, and that made them rich. Unfortunately a lot of those same nations forgot the lessons that made them rich, and you are right, have put themselves in a bad situation. :neutral:

That’s a great post, DragonHorse. In defence of Taiwan, I will say that there are some people trying to change things. I know a few and it’s ten times more frustrating for them than it is for us because they’re stuck with this. It is their home, their culture, etc. They do have to live with it and in it in a way that we don’t. I used to work with a guy (well, he was doing his military service) who did his entire university education in England. He was a very, very smart guy, and the stupid shit he used to see here used to drive him up the wall. He ended up passing the exam for one of the most selective government departments about a year ago. When he left, I virtually begged him not to just become like everyone else in the system, though we both acknowledged that he would still have to play the game to some extent.

I think there are two forces at work. Obviously, there’s the status quo, but there are also record numbers of young people studying abroad or who have studied abroad. They’ve busted their arses to do all the expected things of them, and they’ve come back to an economy and society that’s completely screwed. Even those who haven’t been abroad realise how messed up things are. I think they’re going to be increasingly pissed off and there will be huge changes in the next ten to fifteen years. Hopefully, they will get those changes right. The last thing I’d like to see them do would be adopt the worst policies and programmes of the West as a reaction against the worst policies and programmes of Taiwan.

Taiwan Luthiers grew up somewhere else I believe.
Good points Dragonhorse, for someone who hasn’t spent a lot of time in Taiwan you have it pretty well figured out.

The lack of service industry here is issue in terms of creating more diverse jobs. Tourism has come up a lot and has helped in that regard, unfortunately tourism jobs don’t pay well on average but better than nothing.

I agree Taiwanese need to get more militant, it is their accepting attitude and lack of unionization and organization that allows then to be steam rolled.

Political isolation has not helped things either.

Tourism isn’t working here, in case you ever noticed, many Westerners confuse Taiwan with Thailand. I also do not see many tourists here.

I don’t really have “guanxi”, if I did I wouldn’t be posting here asking for advise on making money and stuff. Guanxi is everything here and even if you’re the most skilled person in the world, without guanxi you will never get a good job. Yea it’s a real problem when you study at some of the best universities in the world and still get 30k, 22k, etc. without overtime, and people just complain about it over the internet yet do nothing about it. They say “that’s just the way it is” and accept it. Maybe things will change if instead of leaving Taiwan they actually try to change things. The whole attitude of bosses is the reason why they stuck with OEM, cheap is better with them and unfortunately nothing short of strategic assassinations will change that. When I try to buy lumber, woodworking tools I encounter so much resistance that it’s sickening. I am buying a Taiwanese product that has to be shipped in from abroad simply because factories can’t be bothered to create their own brand and sell to the local market. And as far as power tools go only ONE company has their own brand and their selection is piss poor. All the convenience stores seems to have created a bunch of jobs but its all shitty min. wage jobs. Do I just stick it out and wait for all the dinosaurs to die off, or start building fallout shelters?

I don’t think that’s what happens though. Most go on on these identikit MBA or Master’s Marketing etc in the UK/Australia/New Zealand where the pass rate is probably 99% and the amount of plagiarism is legendary. Most of them do not spend enough time overseas and they don’t work overseas to really absorb language skills and get some new ideas. They are often better off doing the backpacking or holiday visa thing where they earn more and learn more and mix more. Many of them treat these overseas education stints as a studycation, which is what ‘liu xue’ means in Chinese.

Then when they come home they live with the parents because they are usually young females from richer families to be able to afford to get an overseas education in the first place and therefore they can live on the crap wages that the employers pay here, what is it, a 2-5k NTD premium per month?

Backpacking and working holiday visas are taking off and you can already see young people coming back and opening up little businesses instead of going back to the drone life existence of an office worker, they won’t earn any less either and can earn far more if even just moderately successful.

I think Taiwan needs root and branch reform. 2012 was a real turning point as it finally struck home to the elite (government/business heads) that Taiwan is slowly going down the tubes and they NEED to do something about it, NOW. This is after at least 8 years of economic stagnation, I’ve been waiting for them to realise it and I think it was the re-election of Ma and the failure to give any type of economic boost from his policies and from ECFA that things really hit home. You see a lot of questioning of unfair government policies that have been in place for decades, it’s a pretty hopeful sign. Instead of the old green/blue distraction people are starting to focus on the things that matter.

Now the government is scrabbling every which way to raise GDP next year (again we all know GDP growth does not equal income growth, as Taiwan’s GDP has grown steadily over the last decade). You see them approving science parks and investments left, right and centre, but it’s more of a short-term measure and takes away from the environment and individuals rights. They have also relaxed immigration regulations significantly for the first time in many years. They KNOW they need to do something (which is why I always say if we want dual citizenship rights we must linke explicitly to economic growth and foreign investment!).

Unfortunately I think they DON’T KNOW what to do and therefore look to the past for answers instead of the future. Taiwan needs no less than a revolution of the mind, the discarding of old ideas and adopting of radical new ones, not this crappy iteration approach that makes no real impact. It must start from education and it must start from young people questioning their elders.

Switzerland has been doing really well through this whole crisis, having it’s own currency, low debt, very diverse economy and fairly open immigration policy and being at the heart of Europe. Relatively low taxes make it an attractive place for high income professionals to base out of. Their very flexible application of ‘ethics in finance and banking’ also help. It’s no surprise it is a major center of currency and commodity trading.

I wouldn’t cry too much for Europeans, being one myself. Many countries with significant public debts still live well. Some countries like Germany or the Nordics or Austria are doing as well as they have done in decades! Yes people are going to pull up their socks and take some hits but they still have good food, clean air and water, good culture and good weather for the most part along with peaceful and democratic societies and the chance to move to another EU country if things get too bad at home.

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You’ve brought up some good points so I’ll keep going as I started Magnus Magnusson style :slight_smile:.

I 100% agree that the real dollars are in custom designed and system designed products and services, including global after sales and service warranties. The weak point in Taiwan has been their ability to handle foreign customisation requirements in terms of software and support. They have historically chased the 2 million unit orders, which was fine when factory utilisaton and cost-down was more important, but now with over capacity and more competition it leaves many floundering. As we know Apple gets 200 USD profit from each iPhone, Hon Hai gets 10 USD.

I will give an example. I know many companies involved in the glucose sensor business in Taiwan. It’s a successful industry, with over 20+ companies making sensors and meters. Being involved in the supply chain of this industry I get to monitor the pulse of these companies. I noticed that one year one company will come in with a big order, and next year it will be another company with the original dropping significantly.

This means that they are fighting over the same big customers in Europe and the US. Instead of building the pie they are being pushed into a vicious circle of cost-down competition. Only two companies have built a significant brand in the market (still only 5% of the global market I would say, even though Taiwanese OEMs produce 30-50% of the world’s glucose test strips). The solution is obvious. They should merge and acquire , build their IP portfolio, expertise and reduce capacity while building up marketing and retail channels and expand product range. But in my time in this industry I have not seen ONE merger or acquisition (okay- one company has licensed the rights to use a foreign brand name in an ODM agreement). This of course goes back to the fear of loss of control and lack of income making opportunities (justified). It’s a cultural problem. American, European and Japanese companies dominate in terms of new breakthroughs and long-term research ability, nobody in Taiwan is going to take the risk to invest in the 10 years it may take to build a revolutionary new device.

How about Magnus Ver Magnusson style? I could see you out at Taoyuan airport pulling a jumbo jet with a rope single handedly raising Taiwan’s GDP.

Loved to watch those competitions when I was a kid.