Why don`t Chinese citizens have human-rights?

Legal Human Rights
21

Bastards.

[quote]In an unequivocal rebuke to those pursuing political reforms, a Chinese court on Friday sentenced one of the country’s best-known dissidents to 11 years in prison for subversion.

Liu Xiaobo, 53, a former literature professor and a dogged critic of China’s single-party political system, was detained in December 2008 after he helped draft a petition known as Charter 08 that demanded the right to free speech, open elections and the rule of law.

The 11-page verdict, largely a restatement of his indictment, was read out Friday morning at the Beijing No. 1 Intermediate People’s Court, said Mr. Liu’s lawyer, Shang Baojun. In addition to his prison term, Mr. Liu will be deprived of his political rights for an additional two years, a penalty that will prevent him from writing or speaking out on a wide range of issues. . . .

Mr. Liu’s sentence was the longest for subversion charges in more than a decade.

In 2005, Shi Tao, a journalist and poet, was convicted of leaking state secrets and given a 10-year term after he sent an internal party memo to an overseas Web site. Last year, Hu Jia, an AIDS activist and environmentalist, was imprisoned for three and a half years on charges that his Internet writings incited subversion.

Mr. Liu has been held in secret for more than a year and his lawyers were given less than two weeks to prepare their defense. The trial on Wednesday lasted two hours and was closed; his wife, Liu Xia, and more than two dozen diplomats from the United States, Canada and the European Union were barred from the courtroom. . . . [/quote]
nytimes.com/2009/12/25/world … ml?_r=1&hp

22

i am chinese and i have been wondering about this for a long long time.

there are 4 predominantly chinese countries in the world today - china, taiwan, SARS of hong kong + macau, singapore

human rights is definately not a western concept. Taiwan and the SARS of hong kong + macau have human rights equal to that of many western states. singapore has some human rights (wont starve you to death, wont torture you) but it still lags quite far behind the SARS.

the chinese do want human rights.

i think it all boils down to this. the chinese people in china due to some reasons never stood up to their oppressive government. perhaps it is fear, or ignorance or maybe they have been propagandized.

unlike the british, they never served a magna carta to their soverign. unlike the americans, they never had a martin luther king or a large group of men willing to fight and die for liberty and human rights.

23

Hong Kong, Britain … I’m remembering something … wasn’t there some sort of connection?

24

A better question would be why do Europeans have them? I’d say it’s a side effect of having a large middle class which needed property rights and competition between states. For the last thousand or more years Europe was never successfully politically unified - it has always been a bunch of competing states. Now individual states could and did try to stop people gaining rights but in doing so they risked people leaving. Even worse banning books in one state wouldn’t stop them be printed elsewhere.

None of that applied to China - China never had a middle class and was traditionally politically unified. That meant the government could be as abusive as it wanted and people could either put up with it or leave. Add in the fact that China was usually far ahead of its immediate neighbours and culturally disconnected from anywhere else and it’s clear leaving wasn’t really an option.

I think if China had split into a bunch of competing states that had industrialized first and Europe had been unified and ruled by some nasty empire and got stuck at the feudal level we’d all be wondering why human rights are an Asian idea rather than a European one.

25

kingzog,

human rights exists for all races not just europeans. the whole “asians dont need human rights” bullcrap is just an excuse used by despots trying to cling on to power. these despots will spew whatever BS they can think off just to cling onto power for as long as they can.

in fact a lot of european states dont have human rights till very very recently… did serbia, macedonia,albania,romania,bulgaria,and the whole bloc of ex-communist states in eastern europe have human rights in the 1980s? hell, do countries like albania even have human rights now?

if these europeans states weren’t pandering to join the eu, would they have even progressed as fast as they did?

compare japan,south korea, hongkong with serbia which is right smack in the middle of europe. which countries have more human rights?

even germany, the third largest economy in the world didn’t have “human rights” in ~1980. the darn berlin wall was still standing!

did black people in the US have human rights in the 1950s? Nope! they even had to give up their seats to white people!

did chinese people in australia have human rights in the 1970s? Nope! they couldn’t even get citizenship due to the exclusion act!

human rights is far from a western or european concept. it is a universal concept. it can and should be implemented in every country. those assholes governing the darn country just have to dig their heads out of whatever holes they are in and change the system for the better, instead of clinging on to their despotic ways.

[quote=“KingZog”]A better question would be why do Europeans have them? I’d say it’s a side effect of having a large middle class which needed property rights and competition between states. For the last thousand or more years Europe was never successfully politically unified - it has always been a bunch of competing states. Now individual states could and did try to stop people gaining rights but in doing so they risked people leaving. Even worse banning books in one state wouldn’t stop them be printed elsewhere.

None of that applied to China - China never had a middle class and was traditionally politically unified. That meant the government could be as abusive as it wanted and people could either put up with it or leave. Add in the fact that China was usually far ahead of its immediate neighbours and culturally disconnected from anywhere else and it’s clear leaving wasn’t really an option.

I think if China had split into a bunch of competing states that had industrialized first and Europe had been unified and ruled by some nasty empire and got stuck at the feudal level we’d all be wondering why human rights are an Asian idea rather than a European one.[/quote]

26

Why don’t they have human rights…Tiananmen Square. Yes, if Tiananmen Square had resulted in a multi-party democracy there would be real human rights already in China. Look at Germany, Eastern Europe, Russia etc. After Tiananmen they got scared again and forgot about rights for making money. But it’s lurking there in the background and it will come sooner than later. Education levels are high enough, understanding of the outside world is growing…it’s going to happen. Singapore is controllable because of it’s small size.

Then there is the real thorny question that if human rights are fully granted large parts of China will have to be recognised as real autonomous states, yet I believe they could happily exist in a union of Chinese states much like the EU does right now, it’s just Chinese people (like Taiwanese actually) often don’t have real confidence in their own country.

There is no real argument that Chinese don’t do democracy, as Taiwan admirably proves being one of the only true democratic and human rights respecting states and peaceful co-existence believing states in Asia.

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[color=#0000FF]in fact a lot of european states dont have human rights till very very recently… did serbia, macedonia,albania,romania,bulgaria,and the whole bloc of ex-communist states in eastern europe have human rights in the 1980s? hell, do countries like albania even have human rights now?[/color]

I can’t speak for the rest but in Yugoslavia (before 1990) the people were relatively free as compared to China. Of the four countries you mention only Romania had conditions that approached those of China. In fact, most of the poor living conditions in those countires were due more to dreadfull economic conditions wrought by Socialisim than any active government supression.

[color=#0000FF]if these europeans states weren’t pandering to join the eu, would they have even progressed as fast as they did?[/color]
Yes ‘pandering to the EU’ had little to do with progress in Eastern Europe. It was all about economic collapse.

[color=#0000FF]compare japan,south korea, hongkong with serbia which is right smack in the middle of europe. which countries have more human rights? [/color]

Hong Kong was a british colony, Japan was defeated and rebuilt by the US. What’s this fixation on Serbia as a police state? You are completly misinformed. In fact since at least 2008 Serbia has been listed as a free country. Belive me as an ethnic Croation I have no warm feelings toward Serbia.

[color=#0000FF]even germany, the third largest economy in the world didn’t have “human rights” in ~1980. the darn berlin wall was still standing![/color]

That would be East Germany not all of Germany.

Your other two examples (Blacks in the US and Chinese in Austraila) are examples of racisim and not human rights per se. It is note worthy that in both cases there were members of the majority race that suppported the minorities in their fight for equal rights. Get back to me when that happens in an asian civilisation.

Human reghts is more of a Western Concept than an Asain one. Even your beacons of asian freedom, Korea and Japan are truely free only as long as you are a member of the right race.

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I agree with this 100% - actually I was trying to make a Jared Diamond style case that human rights are absolutely nothing to do with Western culture, the fact that they became widely recognized in Europe first as an accident of history whilst making a subtle dig at the Chinese obsession with political unity.

Of course this I’m wasting my time here, all the people this was supposed to troll have been banned or have stopped posting, and you’re basically on the same side as me and ended up as collateral damage. Damnit, this place is no fun anymore.

29

This topic is about human rights, not freedom. Plenty of poor countries in Europe, South America or Africa are FREE, but are there HUMAN RIGHTS? They are two different things pal.

Bulgaria, Serbia, Croatia, Estonia, Ukraine, Bosnia etc…same as peru and ghana are all free. But are there human rights? I guess you know the answer. Just ask yourself this - Are there corruption? Does the legal system work as it should? How are prison conditions like? How are mental hospitals like? Do the citizens have good living and work conditions? Are there social safety nets? Is the standard of healthcare high? Can their citizens live a comfortable life with dignity?

What is your answer? :unamused:

:astonished: Yeah tell me Croatia doesn’t pander to join the EU. Tell me that Croatia implemented 800000… pages of EU law because it was all about its poor economy. Tell me that is the case for every Ex Communist European states. :unamused:

Rediculous. Japan wasn’t built by the USA. The Japanese built it up themselves. Taiwan built up their own human rights mechanism themselves too. Hong Kong was a British colony but the British government was laissez-faire. Hong Kongers played a huge part in establishing their own culture and city. Just look at Hong Kongers today marching for democracy, universal suffrage and more rights every July. Just look at the Hong Kong’s Legco’s debates. Just look at Taiwanese protesting for human rights. And you can tell me Human Rights is a western concept? lol

East Germany IS Germany.

Alright lets see…Singapore has laws against bullying the minorities. So does Hong Kong. Do they count? I am not familiar with the other countries so I can’t comment.

Australians were the ones who enacted the laws against the Chinese and Aborigines themselves before later removing it. Americans were the ones who enacted laws against the blacks themselves before later removing it only under pressure from the blacks. What you don’t call denying people citizenships and segregating them, asking them to give up seats on buses abuses of human rights? :unamused: The British were the ones who took their own children away from their parents and sent them to far away places like Canada or Australia themselves, leaving them with no one to fend for them. Germany was the country that started WW2, mass killing Jews.

The Balkan region also have their own looooong history of abuse of human rights. Being a Croat, you should know better. Think Bosnia, Serbia and even Croatia.

So many Western Countries have their own looooong history of human rights abuse that I could go on and on. And many of these countries still have less human rights than many Asian countries even today.

And here you are telling me Human Rights is an exclusively Western concept.

[quote=“Gman”]
Even your beacons of Asian freedom, Korea and Japan are truly free only as long as you are a member of the right race.[/quote]

Spoken like a true ignoramus.

30

So where exactly did Japan get their modern constitution after the military government?

Jim Crow, while horrible, never denied citizenship and was implemented only in certain states, not country wide.

Please learn some history, and based upon your other thread some economics while you’re at it. Mercantilism is so 19th century.

Oh, and you do know what a Zainichi Korean is, right?

31

And here you are telling me Human Rights is an exclusively Western concept.

I think he means ‘We were respecting the rights of the individual, thousands of years ago’. Comes from Greek philosophy and Christianity, which while not a European movement in origin, but adoption by Europe sustained it.

No-one’s arguing that ‘the west’, by which I assume you mean Anglo-Saxon Europe and its former colonies, is all about loving one’s neighbour and benevolent city-state-ism, they’re saying that the idea of the fundamental rights of the individual has never been a dominant cultural force in Chinese history. ‘Rights’ are what you can defend. Chinese people don’t have them, and although many dissidents and ‘splittists’ wish to fight, the majority don’t. Their decision. Erm, sort of …

32

Does writing the constituition means human rights is guranteed in the country? Were Americans being sent to Japan to build up its infrastructure, civil and political society?

Plenty of constituitions from eastern Europe to Africa gurantee “rights” but do these rights exist in reality? Just read China’s constituition, do you think that the “constituitional rights” are enforced in reality?

Plenty of former British colonies inherited their common law system and laws from the British. Some even share the same head of state as Britain. Look at Jamaica or Fiji. Do you see them having the same amount of human rights as Britain these days?

If you had bothered to read the previous sentence, you would know “denying citizenship” refers to the Chinese in Australia in the past…1960s or 70s…under the “Chinese Exclusion Act” or something like that

It is not even about theories of economics, it is just about basic economics knowledge. I am neither a historian nor an economist. Let me guess, you are a wise ass genius know-it-all.

There is something called “common sense” which you could learn.

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[quote=“blueeee11”]
It is not even about theories of economics, it is just about basic economics knowledge. I am neither a historian nor an economist. Let me guess, you are a wise ass genius know-it-all.

There is something called “common sense” which you could learn.[/quote]

Your comedy posting thing is super-funny! :roflmao:

34

I must admit that I’m pretty ignorant about Chinese history and philosophy, so when I think of human rights I tend to think of John Locke, Voltaire, Rouseau, John Stewart Mill, Thomas Paine, Wilberforce etc. Who are the equivalent names in the Chinese tradition of human rights?

35

Plenty of people in China or Taiwan or Korea have scarificed their entire lives for democracy and human rights. There must be hundreds if not thousands of people jailed for speaking up for democracy and human rights in China. Taiwan has plenty of those in the past too so does Korea. Ex president Kim Dae Jung of korea is quite a good example. There are just so many of them.

36

Plenty of people in China or Taiwan or Korea have scarificed their entire lives for democracy and human rights. There must be hundreds if not thousands of people jailed for speaking up for democracy and human rights in China. Taiwan has plenty of those in the past too so does Korea. Ex president Kim Dae Jung of korea is quite a good example. There are just so many of them.[/quote]

Of course. I remember the brave guy standing in front of the tank in Tianamen Square who was murdered by the state afterwards. What I was meant was a tradition of ideas, a philosophical heritage.

37

Because China is trying to be like Singapore?

38

:unamused:

39

Bluee,

You want to argue about which cultures have a stronger tradition of Human Rights and you then sight countries like pre 1980 East Germany, Bulgaria the Yugoslav states and Romania as Western countries with poor human rights. That argument is faulty. None of those countries would be considered Western. Before the fall of the Iron Curtian none of those countries would be considered free countries. Since the fall of the Iron Curtain there has been a stronger Western Influence and the trend has been improving human rights and freedoms. You say there are no human rights in Crotia? Have you been there? How about Serbia? The Balkans have a loooong history of ethnic conflict is the issue here Human Rights or Racisim. A Serb in Serbia did fine for decades as did a Croat in Crotia. As for Crotian pandering to the EU, if it makes economic sense then good! well they should. What does that have to do with human rights?

What has been the trend in Hong Kong since it was turned over from Britian to China? In every example you give of protest and marches for Human Rights in Asian countries you completely fail to ask yourself were the inspiration for these protest came from? You state that in Hong Kong the British governed with a hands off approach and it was the native Hong Kong citizens that built their society with a respect for human rights. This is actually a better argument for a stronger tradition of Human rights in the West after all the rest of China wasn’t exactly governed in a hands off manner was it? Hands off or not, the Britsh had a strong influence on Hong Kong and to think otherwise is self decieving.

Your comment that East Germany is Germany is stupid. You brought up Germany before 1989 as having poor human rights and at that time they were two completely different countries. That’s about as logical as saying North and South Korea are the same.

While we could argue about this forever, I don’t think pointing out historical human rights abuses in Serbia, Austrailia, Bulgaria or anywere else is going to do much to answer the title question of this thread " Why don’t Chinese citizens have human rights?" I would point out that there are some Chinese citizens that do have human rights. They reside in the West…

40

[quote=“Gman”]Bluee,

You want to argue about which cultures have a stronger tradition of Human Rights and you then sight countries like pre 1980 East Germany, Bulgaria the Yugoslav states and Romania as Western countries with poor human rights. That argument is faulty. None of those countries would be considered Western. Before the fall of the Iron Curtian none of those countries would be considered free countries. Since the fall of the Iron Curtain there has been a stronger Western Influence and the trend has been improving human rights and freedoms. You say there are no human rights in Crotia? Have you been there? How about Serbia? The Balkans have a loooong history of ethnic conflict is the issue here Human Rights or Racisim. A Serb in Serbia did fine for decades as did a Croat in Crotia. As for Crotian pandering to the EU, if it makes economic sense then good! well they should. What does that have to do with human rights?

What has been the trend in Hong Kong since it was turned over from Britian to China? In every example you give of protest and marches for Human Rights in Asian countries you completely fail to ask yourself were the inspiration for these protest came from? You state that in Hong Kong the British governed with a hands off approach and it was the native Hong Kong citizens that built their society with a respect for human rights. This is actually a better argument for a stronger tradition of Human rights in the West after all the rest of China wasn’t exactly governed in a hands off manner was it? Hands off or not, the Britsh had a strong influence on Hong Kong and to think otherwise is self decieving.

Your comment that East Germany is Germany is stupid. You brought up Germany before 1989 as having poor human rights and at that time they were two completely different countries. That’s about as logical as saying North and South Korea are the same.

While we could argue about this forever, I don’t think pointing out historical human rights abuses in Serbia, Austrailia, Bulgaria or anywere else is going to do much to answer the title question of this thread " Why don’t Chinese citizens have human rights?" I would point out that there are some Chinese citizens that do have human rights. They reside in the West…[/quote]

Eh, you are twisting a lot of things your way.

Lets face it shall we? Every major Western power has had a long history of human right abuses. It is absurb to say human rights is a Western concept because the Westerners themselves had a long history of human right abuses. But they have chosen to change for the better during recent or very recent times. That is why they have human rights today.

What happened in the Balkans wasn’t mere racism. Even if it was, you would expect a country that respects human rights not to be racist, won’t you?

What happened in the Balkans was war, widespread corruption, low standards of living, low quality of life, lack of work opportunities, inhumane prison / mental hospital conditions, poverty , etc…It wasn’t just beign racist.

Asians do want and need human rights. The countries of Korea, Japan, HK, Macau, Taiwan have proven that. And no, to say that the British or Americans single handedly established a culture of human rights in these countries is absurd. Their residents had to work for it themselves (Perhaps, HK, being a British colony did have an advantage over the others.). Just look at the history of each of these countries. If Western countries (Brits,Yanks,French) could establish human rights that easily, all their former colonies would have human rights (probably 1/2 of the world) but they don’t.

China doesn’t have human rights because it keeps living in its past and refuses to change for the better. That is why. There are still a lot of muddle headed people who like to live in the shadows of yesterday. Sadly, many of these people are in government.

I would say Taiwan, HK and Macau (Chinese cities) have more respect for human rights than many countries in Europe or North America for that matter (Central America/Carribean area). So no, Chinese folks do have human rights in their own country,more than many countries in Europe or North America for that matter.

In fact, I would personally enjoy living in Japan or Korea more than in America or the UK. There are less violent crime.