i would much prefer my child to be involved karate, tae kwon do, judo/jujitsu, or kendo than kung fu, the reason being that CKF has no clear moral code. none. that is because contrary to popular belief,most CKF is NOT of buddhist origin, but is in fact, a DAOIST practice.
daoism is not clear in it’s morality. while other martial arts(at least in the States,and probably just to please the soccer moms) have adopted clear "codes of ethics"to teach children ie, "respect elders, help others,etc)CKF fails to do so. few CKF groups in taiwan could ask their students to pledge never to join the mafia, mainly because most of their practioners ARE the mafia.
i know that TKD and most karate-do is a watered down version of the original. but they,particulary TKD, do a good job in imparting basic moral codes to young people.
maybe i’m being too boy scout about this. just my observation.
You think too much.
DO YOU THINK YOUR TAEKWONDO STANDS A CHANCE AGAINST THE MIGHTY CRANE STANCE?
CRANE STYLE!
DO YOU THINK YOUR KARATE STANDS A CHANCE AGAINST THE MIGHT PRAYING MANTIS STANCE?
PRAYING MANTIS STYLE!
DO YOU THINK YOUR ETHIC CODE STANDS A CHANCE AGAINST THE WU TANG SWORD STYLE?
WU TANG!
REX KWON DO!
funny!^^
but seriously, i think the way CKF is taught could stand to be revamped. they could learn a lot from the japanese as far as grading and teaching a sense of propriety goes.
is it any wonder why there are so many hoodlums here in taiwan? they go to the temple (dao jiao), they are never taught a clear rule of right and wrong. at the temple they can learn CKF for the miao hwei. the temple, with it’s “stand both sides of the dark/light side attitude”, attracts hoodlums who worship its "good gods and bad gods.it’s like giving a loaded machine gun to a kid at a KKK rally.you’re mixing dangerous techniques with bad influences and no sense of right and wrong.
i think dao jiao is every bit as bad as radical islam. the daoist priests are basically the imams in islam IMO. i even heard Dr. sun yat sen wanted the practice of dao erradicated at one time.
the poster, I totally agree with you. I did karate in high school, and besides the physical training that we did, we learned a lot of moral values. Don’t show off, don’t pick a fight, respect the elders, bla bla. E.g. I take the train every day, and often see elders or disabled people with no seats, and I’m the only one standing up and offering my seat. But of course, this kind of behaviour can’t all be blamed on CKF, but also on the education at school.
CKF would do well to have something like this: (copied from website)
The Tenets of Tae Kwon Do
COURTESY: Be polite to each other; encourage a sense of justice; respect your instructor and help junior students.
INTEGRITY: To know right from wrong and have the conscience, if wrong to feel guilt.
PERSERVERANCE: To set a goal, e.g. higher rank, technique perfection, and work towards its achievement.
SELF-CONTROL: Both inside and outside the Do Jang, this is important, whether sparring or in one’s personal affairs.
INDOMITABLE SPIRIT: To have the courage of your principles against overwhelming opposition.
School Motto
Nothing is Impossible, Once You Set Your Mind To It, With Enthusiasm and Persistance
Jung-Sin-Il-Do-Ha-Sa-Bul-Sung
Tae Kwon Do Oath
I shall observe the Tenets of Tae Kwon Do
I shall respect the instructor and senior belts
I shall never misuse Tae Kwon Do
I shall be a champion of freedom and justice
I shall build a more peaceful world
Student’s Creed
To build myself physically and mentally
To build friendships and to be a strong group
To develop might for right; never fight selfishly
To show respect for Black Belt Instructors and to aid junior students
…
Colt Officers Model .45acp…because it works.
It’s not the art, it’s the teacher.
My Traditional Martial Arts teacher (kung fu) still keeps in touch with me and would smack me in the head through Skype if he found out I’ve been into no good.
I’ve known him for 10+ years now. He treated me that way (like a son) because that’s how his teacher taught him (an Old School cat from China.)
Grandmaster Chian Ho Yin
I can’t imagine having a better teacher than a TRADITIONAL kung fu teacher. Actually, that would apply to a TRADITIONAL X teacher I’d imagine (the X being, Taekwondo, Akido, Jujitsu, Karate, etc.)
didn’t mean to generalize. but i’ve found that though the japanese and korean arts HAVE been altered for educational purposes, they still contain enough basic self defense for the average person. i just wish CKF could organize, you know: use a ranking system and a syllabus. if CKF is to survive it needs to change, not the technique, but the teaching method.
I disagree. Chinese martial arts are falling by the wayside because there is no standardization. That’s why they’ll never be in the Olympics as anything more than a spectator show.
my point exactly. the whole system is beyond secret, to the point of being ridiculous. you could learn karate for 10 years and be damn good at it, but you could learn CKF for 20 years and know nothing. you could even be certified by your teacher and still know nothing because he didn’t want you to know. and he could have taught you all he knows and you still know nothing because HIS teacher didn’t want HIM TO KNOW!
whole thing is beyond ridiculous and it doesn’t fit the 21st century.
on the other hand, completely opening the door is ridiculous too. you don’t give away something precious to just anyone. somewhere there has to be a balance between absurd secrecy and all out commercialism.
The correct answer to all your questions about Chinese martial arts is in this wonderful and carefully researched book. Among other things it contains the only, yes the only, extended discussion of the history of Taiwanese martial arts available anywhere in english (really, no fooling).
books.com.tw/exep/prod/books … F010327698
And it is a mere $684 NT delivered to the 7-11 nearest your home or office.
Back in the Old Skool kung fu days the students were taught Wute (martial virtue). An outstanding example of this, is this young man who is practicing his hung gar butterfly knives circa 1978 at San Diego State University. He grew up to be a fine gentleman, an attorney, a human rights advocate, an author, and a great husband to two different Taiwanese wives (at different times of course)—I know cause it is me!
Although admittedly his modestly still needs work.
[quote=“theposter”]i would much prefer my child to be involved karate, tae kwon do, judo/jujitsu, or kendo than kung fu, the reason being that CKF has no clear moral code. none. that is because contrary to popular belief,most CKF is NOT of buddhist origin, but is in fact, a DAOIST practice.
daoism is not clear in it’s morality. while other martial arts(at least in the States,and probably just to please the soccer moms) have adopted clear "codes of ethics"to teach children ie, "respect elders, help others,etc)CKF fails to do so. few CKF groups in taiwan could ask their students to pledge never to join the mafia, mainly because most of their practioners ARE the mafia.
i know that TKD and most karate-do is a watered down version of the original. but they,particulary TKD, do a good job in imparting basic moral codes to young people.
maybe i’m being too boy scout about this. just my observation.[/quote]
Yes, send your kids to do karate. Perhaps you should teach your kids moral codes and leave the martial arts teacher to teach martial things, like how to break your opponents legs etc
When learning to shoot guns i was never taught a moral code. (unless gun safety counts?)
[quote=“fenlander”]Yes, send your kids to do karate. Perhaps you should teach your kids moral codes and leave the martial arts teacher to teach martial things, like how to break your opponents legs etc
When learning to shoot guns i was never taught a moral code. (unless gun safety counts?)[/quote]
I also agree that ‘moral codes’ should be taught by parents to their children. That is, IMO, one of the main jobs of a parent - teaching a child how to distinguish what is right and what is wrong in life.
I also believe that it is important to teach a child how to learn these things. That is, how to think and how to learn. That can be quite a task in itself.
Fenlander, I also was taught at an early age to shoot. Both target shooting and hunting. I consider myself fortunate in that a type of code, it could be called a mral code, was part of the lessons.
For example -
Target shooting safety - (Personal Responsibility)
Don’t point the weapon at something you do not want to shoot.
Treat all guns as if they are loaded.
Obey the Range Officer commands.
Clean up your area when finished.
Hunting Safety - (Personal and Animal Responsibility)
Never take a shot if its not a clear shot.
Know what is in the background of what you shoot at - if you miss, what might your bullet hit.
Do not leave a wounded animal to suffer.
Obey Game Rules - Know what is in season and know the bag limits.
Respect the land you hunt on. Ask permission if its private land.
Share, at least offer to share, your take with the land owner.
Close a gate if you open it. Don’t break down fences - climb at a fence post.
I always thought that these were moral codes of a type also.
Just something your comment brought to mind.
Thanks for the memories.
i disagree that morals should only be taught by the parents. there should be no “moral loopholes” in society. your parents don’t show you right from wrong, the school will. school doesn’t your karate teacher will. he doesn’t your neighbor will. there are too many moral loopholes today because everybody puts it (rightfully) on the parents. but to be a teacher means to be more than teaching info.
it takes a village to raise a child. anybody who says i have no right to correct a child when he does wrong,especially when he wrongs ME is NOT A GOOD PARENT.
when i was a kid, if i got yelled at by another adult for doing wrong, i got a beating and a “serves you right”,along with a MANDATORY APOLOGY from me to the person i had wronged.where is that attitude today? you tell these little punks where the buck stops and YOU’RE in trouble!
when i grow up and open my own saturday Dao Gwan, they will learn just that: the way.
I just went to my son’s yellow-belt test in HKG. I know this is a lower level test, but it was interesting. I’ve never been to anything like this before, so I have no idea how representitive this is.
It was held in a large athletic center where a table with banners was put into the middle. This was where the judges sat. The judges were high level black belts, at leat above 3 and the head/supervising coach was at least 7th degree (is that high?). The students were in seated in rows in front of the bleachers grouped by belt color . The parents were on the bleachers behind them. The coaches were made to sit on the side. Everyone had to be quiet (a novel experience in HKG)
For each test 3-5 students were called by name and made to perform a routine set of moves.
- It was very structured. There were a series of moves to be performed and there was a grading matrix where each student got graded A - F. I can’t remember them all, but it was something like this:
- power
- confidence
- routines
- accuracy
- belt tying
Plus some soft skills ‘improvement areas’
- Too noisy
- w/o politeness
- Moved around too much
- Did not listen well
- w/o booklet (where they keep your ‘grades’)
- w/o protective pads
If a student could not remember a move or made a mistake, they were assisted by some junior coach and corrected. About 50% of the students passed.
They then had a little ceremony where everyone was presented their belt. Parents could snap away with cameras at this point and coaches came to give congratulations.
We’ll see what happens when we get to sparring.
TC - what I learned is
a) Shooting paint cans with a .3030 is fun, but cleaning them up is not
b) Hunting is so wet and cold that by the time the damn animal shows up you want to blow it away for putting you through this torture.
I disagree with the poster.
While everyone does have a social responsibility to show kids the right way (hopefully, by both word and example), the ultimate responsibility nevertheless remains with the parents who, unfortunately, often abdicate that responsibility. It begins and ends at home.
Which brings me to my next point, mandatory sterilization of idiots, part of the moral code I learned from Grandmaster Li Chan Wong, in the ancient southern school of Long Duk Dong. So dont’ tell me we don’t have moral codes cuz I also open doors and give up seats for the elderly, beat the kids senseless with a iron rod per the Bible, and satisfy my wife using more than one position per month. How’s that for moral code!
Yup, thanks Jack.
I have to say, every word that Theposter has posted in this thread seems bigoted and elitist to me, as if Theposter knows what the world’s correct moral code is, and there is only one code, but he expects other people to teach it to his kids, not him/herself.
I’m sure Theposter is a great guy/girl/transgendered person, since he/she/ta has that moral code and all, but I wonder what that code says about spouting off comments about things you don’t understand. Comparing Taoism to radical Islam is just ridiculous. Maybe the Taoist logo should be just a plain white circle, that would be quite mind-expanding, wouldn’t it?