What about using phonics, especially in teaching children?
I think phonics certainly has a time and place, but itâs not reliable for many of the more commonly-known English words. As for KK, it seems like a bunch of rubbish; most kids quickly forget most of it, and itâs not like learning English isnât hard enough for them without learning to spell all of the words twice! If they feel they must learn a phonetic system, it should be IPA, as thatâs the one used in all English dictionaries, to my knowledge, and itâs useful outside of Taiwanese schools.
As for the accent, yeah, lots of kids here sound like theyâve been learning American English, but the fact is, they will probably always have Taiwanese accents (though Iâve met a few exceptions). Parents are far too anal-retentive about the American accent thing; they should be happy that their child is speaking and writing well, and not worry about the sound of âaâ.
[quote=âJohnâ]I also emailed my question about KK to a lecturer at Taiwan Normal University, she very gracefuly gave me a detailed reply, some of the interesting things she mentioned are:
quote:
standard British pronunciation used to be taught in Taiwan schools, using the Daniel Jones 'DJ' phonetic symbols. At some point (I don't know which year) everyone was officially changed over to American pronunciation and KK. I'm not so sure why KK was picked over IPA, but there is a general perception that IPA = DJ, and that DJ is only suitable for describing the sounds of British English.
Interesting about the idea that IPA=DJ. [/quote]
Interesting indictment of the level of knowledge in Taiwan of teaching languages. The International Phonetic Alphabet (title should be a bit of a clue, eh?) has a character set of over 2,500 sounds - and attempts to represent the sounds of every known language in the world. But hey - whoâs to argue with the Taiwanese ? They know everything. Look at how clever they are at representing the sounds of their own language in roman characters.
Taiwan Beer, you seem in a bad mood these days, but although Iâm going through that too from time to time, Iâm not sure if itâs worth. Look, we donât need to take anything from outside (transcription systems, food,âŚ), just look at what is officially called the official and ânativeâ language: Chinese.
Where is someone seriously doing research about the modern language, its grammar etc? There is âno academic valueâ in it, so letâs better investigate for the 479th time what Confucius really meant when he said âshit happensâ. While it might be different from school to school, it seems to me that at least a large portion of the schools here never teach Chinese systematically, so students donât know why they say something this way, they just do it because âwe say it this wayâ.
With such a great preparation, it is no wonder a generation is raised that doesnât care for how to use a language. I (a foreigner) am correcting mistakes my students make when writing Chinese, their supposed (somehow) native language. And the thing that really worries me: Iâm right in most casesâŚ
Richard Hartzell has put it a few times and I can only agree: People here have problems with the concept of a âsystemâ. While this might sound like a generalisation, it is not because the root to this lies in the education here and thus affects everyone. IPA/KK stands in the same line with Tongyong/WG/HP or many other thingsâŚ
I think that teaching KK here is dangerous. Because most Taiwanese students look at KK like a romanized
I presented my Grade 2 class with âubiquitousâ and âchoreographyâ on Friday and half of them could pronounce it straight off because they have been studying the same spelling rules I learnt as a kid. A phonetic alphabet is only useful when you are looking a difficult word up in a dictionary. That only happens me rarely, and see no reason a Taiwanese person canât learn to spell as well and in the same fashion as a native speaker. Unfortunately, a certain amount of memorisation is required, and someone has put it into local heads that you can learn English without committing anything to memory.
What exactly is âphonicsâ ? Is it spelling ? Is it phonetics ? In the Scott Foresman spelling book my school uses, âphonicsâ seems to be another word for âspellingâ. Does it mean the out-of-context repition of individual phonemes ?
Iâm not being sarcastic - Iâd never heard the term âphonicsâ used before January this year, it was not used in my CELTA even though we did cover phonetics and the IPA.
Thanks. Is it new ? Thatâs basically the way I learnt to spell as a child.
Definition of âphonicsâ here
Itâs not newâŚI learned the same way. The problem is that American education was dumbed down in the mid to late 1960s and most schools sytems stopped using it. Iâve meet âEnglish teachersâ here with degrees from good schools in the US who canât figure out the pronunciation of a new word when looking at it in the dictionary. Because of the serious literacy problems in schools, phonics is now coming back.
BTW, most American dictionaries use the following pronunciation key (or a slightly modified form).
Well I think thatâs a good thing. A certain amount of rigour is required when learning to decipher the pronunciation of new words. A laissez faire attitude to spelling is not on. I am delighted when I find a student can either spell an unknown word dictated to him or pronounce an unknown word in a story. It is a real achievement for a non-native speaker, and an important step towards mastery of the language.
Thatâs the problem with ALL phonics books on the market todayâŚthey are glorified spelling books. Most phonics books have pictures in them. The pictures actually hurt the students as they look at the picture and say the word instead of looking at the actual letters themselves and understanding why the word sounds like it does. I use a set of phonics books (K1, K2, Levels 1-6, also has a supplemental vowel book) that emphasize the soundsâŚno pictures and all nonsense words. It doesnât help with vocabulary building but they sure do get an excellent grasp of actual phonics. Phonics books currently on the market donât do what they say they can doâŚenable the students to master individual sounds and combination sounds.
Yes a good point. I try and get my students to spell words they couldnât possibly know, but using nonsense words would have the same outcome. I think, however, I would prefer to use real English rather than invent words. Do you teach intonation at the same time ? Should they be taught that conâtroversy and controvâersy are the same word - or is that relevant ?
Sorry for dragging up an incredibly old post.
Does anyone know if the KK system covers the whole range of sounds in the English language? Someone has just told me that it only covers approximately 80 per cent and I canât believe that is true.
Thanks
If you mean General American then it covers more than 80%, if you mean all sounds in all English accents, then itâs probably worse than 80%.
Iâm betting itâs for the same reason that Taiwanese publishers insist on teaching English via linear grammars in this country: They just donât know any better.
Iâve worked or interviewed for plenty EFL publishing houses here. Most of them know dick that would help them do their jobs competently. Itâs much cheaper for them to release crap and rely on instructorsâ willingness to scold children, which is greater than their willingness to question the quality of their materials.
Well ⌠I worked for the biggest in the UK and the point is to sell materials, not to create innovative materials.
Where I work now, we do the stuff that can be automated or mass-produced (not innovative), then do some newer things (innovate, but risky) that, with some programming savvy, might be mass-producible or automated. We then leave user feedback and maintenance rates to direct what to keep and what to scrap.
I guess the difference is that, online, if our app or website sucks, the user uninstalls or leaves it before considering upgrading (actually paying money for services), so it directs focus on user demand better. Print and âonline tutoring (= print + coach)â basically reel bait in, and if customers donât like what theyâve bought, they have to try to hock it on PTT â no returns, no refunds.
The market is incredibly conservative. Schools were the key markets where I worked, bulk buys from government ministries, for high schools, and they have specific requirements.
Dear GodâŚif there were one thing I would change about English learning in Taiwan it would be to get them off the fucking KK⌠Seriously, it was developed in the 1940âs and Taiwan is the only place on the planet that still uses it, or perhaps ever used it. Itâs absolute garbage, way too complicated, and just look at the results it has yielded here. IPA would be a step up but still not completeâŚStill trying to figure out a language and phonics system for Taiwan that will blow everything else out of the water.