Why Some People Leave South Africa

Politics International Politics
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[quote=“In [url=http://tw.forumosa.com/t/theory-why-some-foreigners-never-leave-taiwan/72982/1 thread[/url], shawn_c”]You’ve all met that “foreigner” who came to Taiwan long ago and has been here ever since. No family connections, no real future besides English teaching (doesn’t mean that English is his first language), no plans for anything, really… not even a real girlfriend (i.e. possible wife).

He (yes, “he”, not “she”) could be white, black, yellow, etc… doesn’t matter. What matters is that back in his home country, he had nothing going for him; not much of a social life, not many plans for the future, no real economic future, no feeling of accomplishment or being looked up to. But, he comes to Taiwan, and all-of-a-sudden he has value… he’s a superstar! People look up to him, people want to chat with him, girls want him… because he is now special, has a special skill, and is exotic. (He’s also a teacher in a culture where teachers are given great respect.)

That feeling is so great! He can’t get enough. He’s hooked and he’s never leaving.

This theory, of course, is posited on the fact that all men need to feel; important, valuable, powerful, great, etc. Men want to be looked up to… and some men get it from working hard and busting their asses, and some men get it from… moving to where they can be exotic.

In Taiwan, the “exotic foreigner” gets all these feelings and more. No way they’re returning home! Taiwan is home, now.

Do you agree?

(That said, this is actually the case for men all over the world, including Taiwanese men. Why do you think Taiwanese men can’t bear it if their wife makes more than them (breakups and divorce are not out of the question)? Why do you think there’s 大男人主義/Big Man Syndrome, where many men must be the one to turn to for their family and friends, must make more money, must know everything, etc.?)[/quote]

I guess that may be true in many cases, but in a great number of instances, when it comes to South Africans who are here at least, I’d venture to say that a great number of us have fled due to the phenomenon known as the “New” South Africa & its BEE (Black Economic Empowerment) / affirmative action. Not to mention the unfettered violence in which our country now erodes. What blows the mind is that so many of us still worship that violent old doddering fart, Mandela the terrorist, who formed the terrorist wing of the ANC, which finally was able to usurp power in South Africa and implement aforesaid policies which have resulted in so many of us having to have come here.

I reckon a miniscule number of us Saffas would be here were it not for BEE/AA.

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Im sure its a lot more complicated than that. And for what’s it worth it could have been a whole lot worse for people there.

From what I gather there are people with money and people without in South africa, but it’s easy to pick out one person or one race, some habits don’t change. The monied whites, coloreds and blacks are doing well for themselves.

Mandela is a transformational and inspirational character, that’s something he is rightly recognized for.

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[quote=“headhonchoII”]Im sure its a lot more complicated than that. And for what’s it worth it could have been a whole lot worse for people there.

From what I gather there are people with money and people without in South africa, but it’s easy to pick out one person or one race, some habits don’t change. The monied whites, coloreds and blacks are doing well for themselves.

Mandela is a transformational and inspirational character, that’s something he is rightly recognized for.[/quote]

Yes, there are those who are doing well for themselves, but certainly not nearly enough. I’ll never forget a BBC doccie I saw some time ago where the reporter asked an unemployed Black man how he liked the New South Africa and how thrilled he must now be to be able to vote. The Black man replied that being able to vote was little comfort to him and his family and scores and masses of others who have not seen ANY improvement , and in many cases, such as in his case, a marked drop in quality of life. The man said that while it was true that he never lived a life of ease in the old South Africa, at least he always had a job and was able to feed his family. But the Pommie reporter insisted on prodding him further asking him the same question again. The interviewee became righly irritated, it could be observed.

Regarding Mandela as a “highly inspirational character”, here is just part of his impressive rap sheet for your reading pleasure:

" the preparation, manufacture and use of explosives-for the purpose of committing acts of violence and destruction in the aforesaid Republic, (the preparation and manufacture of explosives, according to evidence submitted, included 210,000 hand grenades, 48,000 anti-personnel mines, 1,500 time devices, 144 tons of ammonium nitrate, 21.6 tons of aluminum powder and a ton of black powder).

(ii) Further acts of violence and destruction, (this includes 193 counts of terrorism committed between 1961 and 1963)"

There is a whole lot more, but gnaw on that for a while. Oh, and incidentally, even Amnesty International refused to take on his case as they were of the view that he was not a political prisoner. Also, he was still firmly on the US Terror Watchlist along with a long list of other terrorists until the old scumbag turned 90, four years ago when they deemed him to be a bit retired now due to his geriatric state. Fuck him, the waste of oxygen that he is.

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Where I’m from we had a lot more problems with ‘terrorism’ but managed to get past all that, because each side believes the other are the terrorists. Look at Syria to see how things could have been handled much much worse. That’s a credit to South Africans, the reformist government there and Mandela himself.
Sure there are a lot of problems there but hating people is not going to solve anything.

Even with black empowerment the majority of the economy there is controlled by whites still, many of them obviously are doing better than ever, but what’s happened is the working class whites got dragged down.

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[quote=“headhonchoII”]Where I’m from we had a lot more problems with ‘terrorism’ but managed to get past all that, because each side believes the other are the terrorists. Look at Syria to see how things could have been handled much much worse. That’s a credit to South Africans, the reformist government there and Mandela himself.
Sure there are a lot of problems there but hating people is not going to solve anything.

Even with black empowerment the majority of the economy there is controlled by whites still, many of them obviously are doing better than ever, but what’s happened is the working class whites got dragged down.[/quote]
Where are you from, Headhoncho? Also, it is not a matter of who “believes” who is a terrorist. The actions of the now-ruling party of SA were clearly terrorist, ie acts of sabotage and bomb planting in streets, supermarkets, pubs, and malls. I remember, as a child, we had to do bomb drills at school. Not a nice experience.

You’re assuming that I’m hating whereas I’m simply issuing the truth (for which you’ve shown no ackknowledgement).

I’m not sure why you think credit is due to a “reformist” govt. when their actions have led to untold misery on all sides of the colour spectrum. You seem to equate fulfilment with political equality in such a complicated arena as the African one. No doubt the pre-'94 govt could have done things differently, but as the African American pastor James Manning has said: South Africa WAS a GREAT nation. The worst thing that happened to South Africa was when they gave it to Mandela and Black folk." And that coming from a Black man.

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[quote=“El Toro”] Also, it is not a matter of who “believes” who is a terrorist. The actions of the now-ruling party of SA were clearly terrorist, ie acts of sabotage and bomb planting in streets, supermarkets, pubs, and malls. I remember, as a child, we had to do bomb drills at school. Not a nice experience.
[/quote]

Hang on a minute. All the South African guys I know (and in the industry I’m in I know a lot :laughing: ) are quite open that stuff like this was carried out by the SADF. Most definitely bombs under cars and shit. Are they lying?

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[quote=“headhonchoII”] That’s a credit to South Africans, the reformist government there and Mandela himself.
Sure there are a lot of problems there but hating people is not going to solve anything.
[/quote]

There is still a lot of pus with Mandela. :laughing:

bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15392189

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[quote=“El Toro”][quote=“bismarck”][quote=“tomthorne”][quote=“ChewDawg”]

When you’re making the equivalent of 60,000 to 100,000 pounds back home or more, when you are getting numerous tax breaks … public pensions, child allowance from the government
[/quote]

Too right, Chewy. It’s disgusting that these welfare spongers suck off the teat of honest hard-working private sector workers.

One thing you can say for us happy to earn $23000 a year Engrish teechurs. At least we aren’t parasites.
[/quote]
And the crowd goes wild!!! :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:

On another note, as an ex-South African and now a Taiwanese citizen I’d like to mention that most, like jimip, Threadkiller and myself, don’t share the sentiments offered above. I originally came here for a change of scenery, not job opportunities, as I was in a good government job earning way more that I earn here (which in the last ten years would have increased by 5-7% annually, not counting promotions and huge leaps in salary - with 100% medical for me and my family for the rest of my life and an awesome pension). I just wanted to get out of the well trodden path and do my own thing. Then, after a year here two things happened. Firstly, I found love (PapaAzucar, above, makes a good point. I wouldn’t have stayed, initially if I wasn’t getting action, and I’m not exactly a one legged dwarf.), and secondly, on my last visit to the Republic in February 2004 my eyes and ears had gone open to the imbecilic opinions expressed by a certain type of white Saffa around every braai and at every opportunity. If any group in SA forced my hand, it was that sub-set of white man. They disgust me, they have zero moral fiber or decency and hide behind a thin veneer of religion and erroneous readings of the Bible to bolster their racist diatribes. They are the singular reason why white Saffas are still seen as a pack of racists. They have done as much damage, if not more, to the image of SA and Saffas than Malema and Zuma combined.

That the government is lacking in most areas is no lie. That they are largely inept, is no exaggeration. But it was mostly always so and not much has changed as ignorant uneducated Afrikaners have been swapped for ignorant uneducated non-Afrikaners in most gvt service jobs. The gvt are thieves and corruption is rife? It was always thus with the NP from 1948-94, also. The more things change, the more they stay the same. The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer? Mbeki warned us of this since 1999 and it’s no surprise, as it even happens in the USA.

No ladies and gents, I did not leave because of BEE/AA. I left seeking new adventures, and stayed gone because I found what I was always looking for. And having actually met Nelson Mandela, and having heard him speak, I can personally attest that despite what he ever did wrong in the 60s (and atoned for for 27 years, surely?), the man, along with Desmond Tutu, is one of the few honest and decent men on that continent.
And anyway, how would you react as a small child witnessing police kicking your door in at 3am and beating your mother with rifle butts in the face? The black people on the whole have been very forgiving.
No. I did not leave because of them. We do not all think this way. And we did not all leave because of the sentiments of a few.

So why did I never leave (in no particular order)?

  1. Life here is easy. Sometimes too easy.
  2. The women are gorgeous, and attainable.
  3. I can drink a beer anywhere without some idiot (as described above) giving me the evil eye and yelling, “Wat fokken kyk jy?” (What the fuck are you looking at?)
  4. I don’t get judged or violently challenged (by the same boorish idiots described above) for or by the length of my hair, my earring, my choice in clothing, my religious beliefs, my choices of entertainment, for being English, having a non-white SO, or just about anything else (including being told Harry Potter etc is the work of the Devil and such utter clap trap) you can think of.
  5. The place is bloody gorgeous.
  6. The challenges of learning Chinese and Taiwanese are lifelong passions that never get old.
  7. The beer is dirt cheap.
  8. I have more friends than I can point a stick at.
  9. I have family here.
  10. Super internet at low ass prices.
  11. Super computers and other gadgets at low ass prices.
  12. A gorgeous woman.
  13. Delicious food available 24/7 365 at low ass prices.
  14. My boy growing up within his own culture near his maternal family.
  15. Beautiful hidden waterfalls in the counties.
  16. Gorgeous beaches, if you know where to find them.
  17. I can hang out at the beach all morning with my boy, everyday.
  18. Cheap flights to almost anywhere.
  19. When I apply for any documents here I get told 7-10 working days, but I invariably get called after 3-4 days.
  20. Interesting old fogies who hang out at the park.
  21. Hot Filipino or Indonesian birds in their Saturday night hottest accompanying said old fogies.
  22. Weird beliefs up the wazoo!
  23. Constant opportunity.
  24. Cheap ass scooter commuting.
  25. Low taxes, huge benefits.
  26. The absolute best SA boerewors and droewors I’ve ever had anywhere, and certainly the best anywhere in Taiwan, BAR NONE, made right here by my mate in Tainan (ships island wide).
  27. Something odd or interesting happens everyday.
  28. Shoe wielding politicians.
  29. Canvassing politicians who come to my door and give me gifts to vote for them, even before I could vote and they could clearly see I was a Johnny Laowai, but who then get into an argument with me about why I should become Taiwanese and vote for THEM!
  30. Taikes and Taimeis.
  31. Being able to go to the 7-11 in a white vest, slippers and pajama shorts without shame.
  32. Having the 7-11 clerk give me what I want without asking for it, because they know me.
  33. Kick ass festivals.
  34. Kick ass festival food (NOT moon cakes, however!)
  35. Weird ass religious beliefs.
  36. Supreme tolerance of the weird ass religious beliefs of others.
  37. Weird ass superstitions.
  38. Crazy ass Laowai who’ve been here longer than the countries of their birth.
  39. General tolerance.
  40. My ancestral castle in Anping.

[/quote]I could go on, [/quote]…Don’t we know it! lol

Well written. Agree everywhere? Not at all. Also I really fail to see how being responsible for the murder of civilians by landmines, car bombs and other means can be atoned for by a mere 27 years of (relatively easy) imprisonment. He (Mandela) should have been hanged for his crimes. The Rivonia trials were International headlines and after Mandela pleaded guilty to all charges and the guilty verdict was arrived at, the International community was astonished at the lenient sentence meted out to him. And speaking of Tutu, this revered clergyman promoted and encouraged the “armed struggle” (read bomb planting in civilian installations) so I fail to see how he can be regarded as an icon of peace. Both he and Mandela are most certainly well polished in their press manner and are both charasmatic figures, charming both, but their words of violence (never exposed by the mass media) are a total contradiction to the beautiful words of peace, the inspirational dictums that they have both uttered on the other side of their lying mouths.

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But, El Toro, what was the alternative to taking up arms against the apartheid regime? Just grin and accept it philosophically, while hoping that your oppressors might one day decide to toss you a scrap or two of human rights, just out of the pure goodness overflowing from their hearts?

There haven’t been too many freedom fighters anywhere in the world or in history who have gained much for their people without shedding the blood of those oppressing them.

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[quote=“Omniloquacious”]But, El Toro, what was the alternative to taking up arms against the apartheid regime? Just grin and accept it philosophically, while hoping that your oppressors might one day decide to toss you a scrap or two of human rights, just out of the pure goodness overflowing from their hearts?

There haven’t been too many freedom fighters anywhere in the world or in history who have gained much for their people without shedding the blood of those oppressing them.[/quote]

Look, Omni, I can understand warfare, but planting bombs in civilian installations? Landmines on farm roads? Come on, man!

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I’m from Ireland. You are going nowhere carrying around all that sectarian baggage. Doesn’t do anybody any good. There are obviously so many other issues to deal with there rather than getting amped up on whether Mandela was a terrorist or not. Even if he was, and this often again depends on which side of a conflict you are on, he is not now. He is something a lot more than that. Strange you focus on Mandela compared to so many other obvious corrupt and inept targets that standout. This getting off topic now.

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Every “freedom fighter” in history has become oppressors themselves, particularly in Africa. Say what you will but the USA probably is the only freedom fighter that didn’t become oppressors themselves, at least for a while, but maybe there is something they aren’t saying. Even the KMT started oppressing after a while and it is only in the last 20 years that they came to their senses.

Taiwan could have easily ended up like Burma if they never came to their senses!

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[quote=“El Toro”][quote=“Omniloquacious”]But, El Toro, what was the alternative to taking up arms against the apartheid regime? Just grin and accept it philosophically, while hoping that your oppressors might one day decide to toss you a scrap or two of human rights, just out of the pure goodness overflowing from their hearts?

There haven’t been too many freedom fighters anywhere in the world or in history who have gained much for their people without shedding the blood of those oppressing them.[/quote]

Look, Omni, [color=#FF0000]I can understand warfare[/color], but planting bombs in civilian installations? Landmines on farm roads? Come on, man![/quote]
Really? Seems not, though. So please enlighten us how an ill equipped, largely untrained guerrilla group that is out numbered, out matched in the field with little to no financial funding is to overcome a superior force other than by unconventional means? What would you have done, were the shoe on the other foot?

More to the point, have you ever befriended, or even spoken to ex-MK and ex-APLA cadres about why they did what they did? Have you tried to understand? Btw, talking to the garden boy afraid of losing his Saturday income doesn’t count.
In fact, come to that. How many ex-32 Bat guys do you even know, and not just the handful of white officers? Pointing the finger at Madiba et al, do you have a clue of the atrocities that were committed by 32, the police and conventional SADF forces in and out of SA? The sad thing is, these weren’t underdogs. These were people who had full state backing and all the resources they needed at their command.
Utterly shameful, and un-Christian, what was done to so many, by so few, to uphold an untenable status quo. Ex Unitate Vires my arse!

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Far more deaths in SA than there ever were in Ireland. I’m not carrying any kind of sectarian baggage, I simply stated that I was flabbergasted by how many South Africans who are here still revere the catalyst (or at least one of them) who, in essence has forced them to leave South Africa. Again, as ponited out before, terrorism is terrorism, including the disgusting Afrikaner/Boer arseholes who have murdered Black civilians. So no, it doesn’t depend on which side of the conflict you are on. Terrorism is terrorism: "

ter·ror·ism
[ter-uh-riz-uhm] Show IPA

noun
1.
the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.

the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.

a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government

Know your definitions.

Regarding this being off-topic, threads often morph into subtopics, and discussion is good.

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[quote=“El Toro”][quote=“bismarck”][quote=“El Toro”][quote=“Omniloquacious”]But, El Toro, what was the alternative to taking up arms against the apartheid regime? Just grin and accept it philosophically, while hoping that your oppressors might one day decide to toss you a scrap or two of human rights, just out of the pure goodness overflowing from their hearts?

There haven’t been too many freedom fighters anywhere in the world or in history who have gained much for their people without shedding the blood of those oppressing them.[/quote]

Look, Omni, [color=#FF0000]I can understand warfare[/color], but planting bombs in civilian installations? Landmines on farm roads? Come on, man![/quote]
Really? Seems not, though. So please enlighten us how an ill equipped, largely untrained guerrilla group that is out numbered, out matched in the field with little to no financial funding is to overcome a superior force other than by unconventional means? What would you have done, were the shoe on the other foot?

More to the point, have you ever befriended, or even spoken to ex-MK and ex-APLA cadres about why they did what they did? Have you tried to understand? Btw, talking to the garden boy afraid of losing his Saturday income doesn’t count.
In fact, come to that. How many ex-32 Bat guys do you even know, and not just the handful of white officers? Pointing the finger at Madiba et al, do you have a clue of the atrocities that were committed by 32, the police and conventional SADF forces in and out of SA? The sad thing is, these weren’t underdogs. These were people who had full state backing and all the resources they needed at their command.
Utterly shameful, and un-Christian, what was done to so many, by so few, to uphold an untenable status quo. Ex Unitate Vires my arse![/quote][/quote]

Of course I have not befriended any MK or APLA cadres. Why would I befriend anyone who has likely murdered friends of family of mine by car/supermarket bombs etc? Talking to the “garden boy”? Sheesh, you’re stooping to ever-increasingly presumptious juvenile lows!

Incidentally, unlike you I was actually near the border of Angola near Ruacana at Hurricane Airforce base at the time the Cubans were in Africa during my National Service of 2 years, and I did indeed speak with and get to know some 32 Btn guys, Blacks all of them, Portuguese-speaking Angolans who were in the tent next to mine. They were wonderful men, men of men, courageous and principled, who knew the threat of communism. I’m not saying that mistakes and errors of judgement were not made, but the sheer scale of destruction wreaked on civilians by your commie heroes, pales into insignificance compared to what the SADF ever did.

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I can only assume you’re talking about yourself, as the Saffas I know, didn’t leave because of BEE/AA and had good jobs and opportunities back home. Like their North American, European or Australasian counterparts, they came here for many reasons (following a Taiwanese girl back here, adventure, travel and a host of other reasons). The ones with a BEE/AA chip on their shoulders should just take their racist baggage and bugger off where they came from, as they were essentially part of the problem back there and aren’t really welcome anywhere.

On another note, I’ve known plenty of Saffa teachers who have come here with a wife, taught, saved and traveled for 3-5 years and gone back to SA with paid off homes, some cash in the bank and are happily teaching back there again.

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The new government of Dr Daniel Malan brought the Afrikaner National Party to power, determined to further separate the races. Under Malan’s apartheid policy, drastic laws were introduced which forced everyone to be classified by their race, and compelled to live in different parts of the city. Blacks of course were forced to live in far worse conditions than whites. Multi-racial areas like Sophiatown, near the centre of Johannesburg, were destroyed. Mixed marriages were forbidden, and Africans faced arrest if they didn’t carry passbooks, which came to be seen as a symbol of black oppression.

ANC leaders like Mandela, who called for a multi-racial, democratic South Africa, were harassed, banned from travelling or attending meetings, and arrested. In December 1956 Mandela was charged with High Treason, and though he was eventually acquitted, the five-year trial seriously damaged both his law practice and limited the scope of political activity

Does more need to be said?

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Careful with the thinly veiled personal insults.

And?

Btw, you should get your hatred straight. Commie Angolans and Cubans weren’t ANC/APLA cadres. But it seems you ate up that NP propaganda hook, line and sinker. Then again, SADF era National Service? No surprise.

Seriously, you need to move on. 22 Years have passed since Madiba was released. Even more since actual fighting in Angola. Maybe you need to take a Christian page out of his and Tutu’s book. Forgive and forget. Move on. If you care so much, go back there and do something about it. EYE for one didn’t move here to be surrounded by the likes of this, this mostly annoys and nauseates me. I came here to get away from people who think like this: The die hard bittereinder Dutchy clinging to the past because he can’t make anything for himself in the present without government hand outs and job reservation acts for uneducated whitey.

In fact, I’m so sickened now, I’m going for a walk to remind myself where I am.

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I don’t know why Mandela would actually name one of his family members after Gaddafi. I’m sorry–that’s just fucking crazy and smells like Maoist cult worship of a person that murdered, raped, and kidnapped. :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: That most of the pseudo-intellectual left admire the man reiterates to me their juvenile nihilist tendencies that never developed too far past first year poli-sci courses :smiley: :smiley: :laughing: :whistle:

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Yeah, Mandela was terrible. Didn’t he do ethnic and gender studies at McGill? He should be shot. We need more reliable types like Botha.