[quote=“almas john”]El Toro,
Good on you for sticking to your ground, and asserting what you believe.[/quote]
So did Hitler, and what a charming fellow he was.
[quote=“almas john”] Most people who are selling to the local foreign community would not voice such an unpopular opinion in such a fashion.
Personally, I think Mandela is overrated - the near saint-like status he has long enjoyed in the West is a bit more than he deserves. I’ve always thought he’s a good target for any up and coming Hitchens wannabee; just as Christopher Hitchens wrote a book demonizing Mother Teressa, so there is material and guaranteed publicity in taking on Mandela. There have been critical works written about Gandhi, and goodness knows there’s lots of ammo available for such a task.
It’s not that Mandela is a bad chap but there comes a time when the adulation should give way to a bit of nuance; perhaps this will happen a few years after his death. I do think a revisionist take on him would still come out giving him pass marks, that he was basically a good man who did a reasonable job. But I would not put him in the ranks of Aung San Suu Kyi and the Dalai Lama.[/quote]
I don’t think anyone here has lionized or made him out to be a saint. I think we’ve been quit fair that he was a terrorist prior to be locked up, but the main thing has been that he has made a great contribution to peace and reconciliation in SA (and helped avoid what could have been a brutal ending to Apartheid, apart from bringing in Afrikaners and giving them their dues of sorts) and has been one of the few decent statesmen, along with Desmond Tutu, on that continent. He has been the glue, for the most part, and a stabilizing factor. Does he have a tarnished history? Sure. Did he do things that he may not morally or ethically would have done otherwise? Sure. The man is not without fault. And sure, the majority idolize him, and why shouldn’t they? And all the other guys that could have rivaled him or who could have been greater were tortured and brutally murdered by El Toro’s “heroes”. So know way of knowing what we would have gotten out of the likes of Steve Biko.
I can see who is decent and who isn’t. Pieces of shit like Malema and Zuma are a waste of oxygen. But Mandela has atoned in part and certainly done more than many of his detractors. And before we start writing any revisionist books, let’s first have a look at how things go once he’s dead.
Btw, The Dalai Lama ran away into exile. What has he really achieved for Tibet? Internationally, no one seems to give a shit. Unless China implodes (like George Friedman predicts), they’re shit out of luck.
Ghandi had a lot going for him. The British occupying force was way smaller percentage wise than the Afrikaners in SA (where his non-violent ass was unceremoniously thrown off a train for being in the wrong section and refusing to move - those Dutchies don’t care much for non-violent objections, they’ll still fuck you up anyway), and unlike the blacks they weren’t corralled into easily manageable areas. His policies worked there, but would not have worked in SA. They didn’t give a fuck about sanctions, the international community or even terrorism (in fact, that probably gave them more of an excuse to forward their policies of regional destabilisation - yeah, no one really believes we were under a serious communist threat, only indoctrinated morons bought into that BS). At the end of the day a good argument can be made for this: The only reason the majority of whites voted yes in 1992 was to play international cricket and rugby.
And people comparing the terrorist activities in South Africa to Shamir during the Mandate years on Israel is ludicrous. If you had five million relatives/Jews die while Europe slept/and needed an American bailout/rescue during WW2, you’d oppose British colonialism. The minorities in South Africa had every right to reject white domination rule, they just did so in a prolonged and violent way and chose really bad partners. Contrast that with Israel where statehood was supported by major powers (USSR, USA etc.) and where the Stern Gang, Irgun and the Palmach combined to form the IDF after statehood (in other words, the guerilla warfare against the British was short, successful and very limited).[/quote]
It is absolutely ludicrous. How do you compare a bare-bones colonial administration, with virtually nothing at stake, basically just trying to avoid having everything blow up in its face, and acting as much in your interest as not, to that of an entrenched and powerful minority government, convinced its very existence was at stake, and determined to go to virtually any length to maintain the status quo? It’s just absurd.
[quote]“No one is born hating another person because of the colour of his skin, or his background, or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite.”
Nelson R Mandela[/quote]
Indeed. What a horrible man.
uhm, just as an aside, shouldnt the title be “why some natives leave south africa” because they are not “foreigners” in SA.
but of course we all know what we are talkin bout cuz those that have been in taiwan long enough now know the term “foreigner” applies to all “white folk”.
And taiwanese in the USA still refer to all the white people as “foreigners” although they themselves are the foreigners in the USA.
Well, it was intended as a humorous play on the title of the last thread, and as Tommy says with the connotation of “foreigner” that applies in general here in Taiwan. It wasn’t meant to imply otherwise, but point taken.
Mandela promised to establish an Afrikaner homeland–something on the order of a self-governing province where white people can protect their culture and lives more effectively. This homeland has never materialized. To my mind, South African whites would be within their rights to seize one for themselves by force of arms, and declare independence. Cape Town and its surrounding regions seems most viable for this purpose, although it lacks the emotional pull of areas along the Orange and Vaal rivers.
I have often wondered how many whites it would take to accomplish such a thing. For that matter, I wonder how many mercs it would take to overthrow the government of Zimbabwe.
El Toro and others who have condemned Mandela for his participation in acts of “terrorism”:
Top of the BBC headlines this morning is news that several of Syrian President Assad’s top henchmen have been killed in a bomb attack. The dead include people directly responsible for the most sickening attacks on civilians, brutal acts of slaughter that have killed thousands of men, women and children. Deserters from the highest level of the regime have said that Assad and his enforcers will stop at nothing to crush protests against their dictatorship, and will not hesitate to use chemical, biological or any other kind of weapon if they feel they need to.
I was very glad to read the news of this bombing, and I salute the bombers as heroes. I’m sure a majority of good, peace-loving people would share my sentiments, applauding the success of this attack, the bravery of those who carried it out, and the resourcefulness of those who masterminded it. But how about you? Are they heroic freedom fighters in your eyes, or despicable terrorist murderers?
Was Nelson Mandela actually a terrorist? I’ve always accepted the often repeated accusation against him that he was a terrorist on the basis of the fact that the ANC engaged in acts of terrorism but I’ve found no evidence that Mandela himself, who was imprisoned in 1964, was guilty of terrorist acts. Sabotage, yes, but violence which resulted in the deaths of innocent civilians, no.
Of course he was in the clinker since pa fell off the bus, but he nevertheless instigated, encouraged, and planned attacks on civilians, one of which he gloats about in his so-called book, Long Walk to Freedom. (I’ve mentioned this earlier) He brags as to having “signed off” on the Church Str. car bomb attack in Pretoria.
[quote=“tommy525”]Yes and just as many celebrated the fall of the twin towers as part of their jihad against the United States.
I feel that an action that kills terrorists and other people with innocent blood on their hands to be just. One that targets civilians as not just.
And in times of war, many actions by govts are unjust. London was bombed, so were German cities. The USA dropped two atom bombs on CITIES.
These actions were unjust.
Bombings should be against military installations rather then cities.[/quote]
Hear hear! :bravo: Let me jump on the backslapping bandwagon
Incidentally, Dresden was basically a refugee city, and Germany was practically already defeated already. The Allies needed, it seemed, to rub salt into the wound by FIRE bombing said city. With INCENDIARY bombs designed for inflicting casualty on humans, not buildings and this is what the evil Allies did!
Of course he was in the clinker since pa fell off the bus, but he nevertheless instigated, encouraged, and planned attacks on civilians, one of which he gloats about in his so-called book, Long Walk to Freedom. (I’ve mentioned this earlier) He brags as to having “signed off” on the Church Str. car bomb attack in Pretoria.[/quote]
I can’t find any evidence that he was involved in attacks on civilians. Short of reading ‘Long Walk to Freedom’ (which I’ve perused on line) the only evidence I can find that he signed off on the Church St. bombing while in prison is the claim that he so wrote in his book – but no direct quotes by anyone. Surely there’s a direct quote of that damning passage available somewhere.
I’ve heard it said the reason “smart” people (all races) are leaving South Africa is because things are getting progressively worse, and not progressively better.
SA is a super slow motion train wreck. It doesn’t take a crystal ball to predict that EVENTUALLY South Africa will be just like the rest of Africa. Africa is the most backward of populated continents for a reason - the people consume and destroy like locusts. Nothing is allowed to prosper.
This isn’t pessimism talking, but realism.
All the smart people - black, white, yellow, brown - who get out now and resettle elsewhere are the smart ones. Those in denial will pay a dear price later. Just look at what happened to Zimbabwe - once thriving, now dying.
Good luck to ALL South Africans trying to settle in Taiwan.
Of course he was in the clinker since pa fell off the bus, but he nevertheless instigated, encouraged, and planned attacks on civilians, one of which he gloats about in his so-called book, Long Walk to Freedom. (I’ve mentioned this earlier) He brags as to having “signed off” on the Church Str. car bomb attack in Pretoria.[/quote]
I can’t find any evidence that he was involved in attacks on civilians. Short of reading ‘Long Walk to Freedom’ (which I’ve perused on line) the only evidence I can find that he signed off on the Church St. bombing while in prison is the claim that he so wrote in his book – but no direct quotes by anyone. Surely there’s a direct quote of that damning passage available somewhere.[/quote]
All you really need to be aware of is that he founded Umkhonto We Sizwe which was the armed (read terrorist) wing of the ANC. Not to speak of his close affiliations with the various violent communist and revoltionary organisations in Africa as well as the very close ties the ANC had with despots such as Castro, Gadaffi, and others. Anyway, buy the actual book, and find the quote for yourself. Methinks you’re over a barrel here, Hamish.
[quote=“SillyWilly”]I’ve heard it said the reason “smart” people (all races) are leaving South Africa is because things are getting progressively worse, and not progressively better.
SA is a super slow motion train wreck. It doesn’t take a crystal ball to predict that EVENTUALLY South Africa will be just like the rest of Africa. Africa is the most backward of populated continents for a reason - the people consume and destroy like locusts. Nothing is allowed to prosper.
This isn’t pessimism talking, but realism.
All the smart people - black, white, yellow, brown - who get out now and resettle elsewhere are the smart ones. Those in denial will pay a dear price later. Just look at what happened to Zimbabwe - once thriving, now dying.
Good luck to ALL South Africans trying to settle in Taiwan.[/quote]
I can’t say I disagree with the above.
He didn’t actually commit any acts of terror himself, but neither did most of the higher ups n both sides. What some people fail to understand though, is that if you keep kicking a dog, eventually he will bite back. These same people seem upset that the dog bit back. :loco:
These guys missed so many opportunities to go a different route from the rest of Africa. The first major opportunity was the Boer War where blacks were also placed in concentration camps. The Boers could have recruited the Zulus and possibly the Xhosas to attack the British in their respective areas, and they could have met and defeated the British in the field with Boer cavalry and Zulu infantry outnumbering the British 10-1 in such a way. They could have gotten the entire sub-continent to erupt in war and dragged it on for years, after which many possibilities could have enfolded.
After 1910 and again after 1948 they could just have continued with Smuts’ views of natural segregation (the idea that most people stick to their own, although some will mix) and just let things develop naturally. They could have had massive education programs for all races in all areas and used the country’s resources to develop a huge industrial base. Voting rights could have been based (for all races) on age, education and other limitations until such a time as most of the country was on an equal footing.
Instead, the tied “the dog” to a tree, beat it relentlessly and only let it off the leash for dirty jobs. Now they’re all surprised, and some still can’t understand why things went wrong. Bloody fools.
It needn’t have been this way. The opportunities were missed and it, in all likelihood, will never completely be rectified. On the other hand, Namibia and Botswana are humming along nicely, and Angola is making great progress since Savimbi died. Not all is dark in Africa, but I doubt the continent as a whole will ever be a shining light of development.
[quote=“bismarck”][quote=“almas john”]El Toro,
Good on you for sticking to your ground, and asserting what you believe.[/quote]
So did Hitler, and what a charming fellow he was.[/quote]
Nazi comparisons! Never a good sign for a discussion, and not really apt here. El Toro is not playing to the crowd, but rather fighting against it.
[quote]I don’t think anyone here has lionized or made him out to be a saint.[/quote] Indeed, and that is why I wrote "in the West ". You yourself have been annoyed by the rather simplistic stereotypes of white South Africans, and you’ve written some nice posts on this forum about Saffer history and politics.
[quote]
Btw, The Dalai Lama ran away into exile. [/quote] That’s not quite fair. He stayed after the Reds invaded Tibet in 1950 and tried in good faith to work with them. He “ran away” in 1959.
[quote]What has he really achieved for Tibet? [/quote] Tricky question to answer.
[quote=“almas john”][quote]I don’t think anyone here has lionized or made him out to be a saint.[/quote] Indeed, and that is why I wrote "in the West ". You yourself have been annoyed by the rather simplistic stereotypes of white South Africans, and you’ve written some nice posts on this forum about Saffer history and politics.
[quote]
Btw, The Dalai Lama ran away into exile. [/quote] That’s not quite fair. He stayed after the Reds invaded Tibet in 1950 and tried in good faith to work with them. He “ran away” in 1959.
Contrast that with Israel where statehood was supported by major powers (USSR, USA etc.) and where the Stern Gang, Irgun and the Palmach combined to form the IDF after statehood (in other words, the guerilla warfare against the British was short, successful and very limited).[/quote]