Why Some People Leave South Africa


#81

Of course he was in the clinker since pa fell off the bus, but he nevertheless instigated, encouraged, and planned attacks on civilians, one of which he gloats about in his so-called book, Long Walk to Freedom. (I’ve mentioned this earlier) He brags as to having “signed off” on the Church Str. car bomb attack in Pretoria.[/quote]

I can’t find any evidence that he was involved in attacks on civilians. Short of reading ‘Long Walk to Freedom’ (which I’ve perused on line) the only evidence I can find that he signed off on the Church St. bombing while in prison is the claim that he so wrote in his book – but no direct quotes by anyone. Surely there’s a direct quote of that damning passage available somewhere.[/quote]

All you really need to be aware of is that he founded Umkhonto We Sizwe which was the armed (read terrorist) wing of the ANC. Not to speak of his close affiliations with the various violent communist and revoltionary organisations in Africa as well as the very close ties the ANC had with despots such as Castro, Gadaffi, and others. Anyway, buy the actual book, and find the quote for yourself. Methinks you’re over a barrel here, Hamish.[/quote]

If that’s all there is against Mandela – guilt by association, the fact that he founded the armed wing of the ANC and unsupported allegations about what he said – then I withdraw my earlier assertion that Mandela was a terrorist. I clearly bought the party line on that one without doing my homework.


#82

If we can’t keep this relatively calm and civil we’ll have to end it folks.


#83

Well, I think this thread was going along nicely. Some boisterous discussion. Until a certain someone started throwing his toys and cussing. Even El Toro seemed quite genial. :laughing:


#84

Of course he was in the clinker since pa fell off the bus, but he nevertheless instigated, encouraged, and planned attacks on civilians, one of which he gloats about in his so-called book, Long Walk to Freedom. (I’ve mentioned this earlier) He brags as to having “signed off” on the Church Str. car bomb attack in Pretoria.[/quote]

I can’t find any evidence that he was involved in attacks on civilians. Short of reading ‘Long Walk to Freedom’ (which I’ve perused on line) the only evidence I can find that he signed off on the Church St. bombing while in prison is the claim that he so wrote in his book – but no direct quotes by anyone. Surely there’s a direct quote of that damning passage available somewhere.[/quote]

All you really need to be aware of is that he founded Umkhonto We Sizwe which was the armed (read terrorist) wing of the ANC. Not to speak of his close affiliations with the various violent communist and revoltionary organisations in Africa as well as the very close ties the ANC had with despots such as Castro, Gadaffi, and others. Anyway, buy the actual book, and find the quote for yourself. Methinks you’re over a barrel here, Hamish.[/quote]

If that’s all there is against Mandela – guilt by association, the fact that he founded the armed wing of the ANC and unsupported allegations about what he said – then I withdraw my earlier assertion that Mandela was a terrorist. I clearly bought the party line on that one without doing my homework.[/quote]

I suggest you do some further reading regarding Mandela’s status as a terrorist. You can start here: ancgenocide.blogspot.tw/2008/04/ … mbing.html


#85

Of course he was in the clinker since pa fell off the bus, but he nevertheless instigated, encouraged, and planned attacks on civilians, one of which he gloats about in his so-called book, Long Walk to Freedom. (I’ve mentioned this earlier) He brags as to having “signed off” on the Church Str. car bomb attack in Pretoria.[/quote]

I can’t find any evidence that he was involved in attacks on civilians. Short of reading ‘Long Walk to Freedom’ (which I’ve perused on line) the only evidence I can find that he signed off on the Church St. bombing while in prison is the claim that he so wrote in his book – but no direct quotes by anyone. Surely there’s a direct quote of that damning passage available somewhere.[/quote]

All you really need to be aware of is that he founded Umkhonto We Sizwe which was the armed (read terrorist) wing of the ANC. Not to speak of his close affiliations with the various violent communist and revoltionary organisations in Africa as well as the very close ties the ANC had with despots such as Castro, Gadaffi, and others. Anyway, buy the actual book, and find the quote for yourself. Methinks you’re over a barrel here, Hamish.[/quote]

If that’s all there is against Mandela – guilt by association, the fact that he founded the armed wing of the ANC and unsupported allegations about what he said – then I withdraw my earlier assertion that Mandela was a terrorist. I clearly bought the party line on that one without doing my homework.[/quote]

I suggest you do some further reading regarding Mandela’s status as a terrorist. You can start here: ancgenocide.blogspot.tw/2008/04/ … mbing.html[/quote]

I already found that blog – and others that use the same wording. Sorry, I’m not persuaded by someone claiming that Mandela said something when it’s just as easy to quote Mandela himself and let me decide for myself what the context and meaning of his statement is. I’m even less persuaded by assertions that consist of ‘well, if you want proof of my assertion you’ll have to find it yourself.’


#86

Like and endless tie break.
One persons terrorist is anothers freedom fighter.

Is there a puke emoticon?


#87

I left to pay off debt and get away from people like El Toro. Yes, horrible horrible things have happened to me in SA, but the amount of racism against blacks/coloreds/ asians, sexism and straight out homophobic statements made by almost every Caucasian male I meet when I go back to visit… is by far the most disgusting and shocking behaviour I need to deal with.

If a man attacks me, I hate that specific man…not his friends, music, race etc.


#88

[quote=“bigduke6”]Like and endless tie break.
One persons terrorist is anothers freedom fighter.

Is there a puke emoticon?[/quote]

Terrrorism is just that. If terror tactics were used to achieve objectives. So stop talking pure KAK! (meaning SHIT)


#89

[quote=“Battery9”]I left to pay off debt and get away from people like El Toro. Yes, horrible horrible things have happened to me in SA, but the amount of racism against blacks/coloreds/ asians, sexism and straight out homophobic statements made by almost every Caucasian male I meet when I go back to visit… is by far the most disgusting and shocking behaviour I need to deal with.

If a man attacks me, I hate that specific man…not his friends, music, race etc.[/quote]

You mean you don’t want some of my wors? :cry:

Come on, don’t kid yourself, crime CAN be divided along cultural lines.


#90

:laughing: What do you mean EVEN El Toro? :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :laughing:


#91

Hmmm. Initially I thought your debate had merit. You are entitled to your POV.

However, my point is simple.

You feel Mandela was a terrorist.
Many people think he was a freedom fighter.

Opinion on the matter will always be divided.

You are not going to convince anyone who feels he is not a terrorist, to change their minds.

Personally, I think he was a terrorist.
However he did a good job keeping SA together when he was president.

The fact that the turds who came after him fucked everything up good and proper, is another debate altogether.

I do feel you need to move forward. The good old days are gone forever, just like the flag you have as your avatar.

I did extremely well in the New South Africa. I did not leave embittered or anything like that. In fact in the old SA I would have been fucked due to sanctions.

You just seem to have a chip on your shoulder.
You need to knock it off quick.

Am I talking kak? Maybe? But that’s your opinion and you


#92

[quote=“Battery9”]I left to pay off debt and get away from people like El Toro. Yes, horrible horrible things have happened to me in SA, but the amount of racism against blacks/coloreds/ asians, sexism and straight out homophobic statements made by almost every Caucasian male I meet when I go back to visit… is by far the most disgusting and shocking behaviour I need to deal with.

If a man attacks me, I hate that specific man…not his friends, music, race etc.[/quote]
Amen, sister. :thumbsup:

And the problem with blogs like that is that they are written with a certain agenda in mind by people with a generally racist mindset. :2cents:

B9 brought up another interesting point. Another reason I’ve stayed, is that I’m not certain that a certain vocal minority in SA will be too accepting of my choice in SO, nor how my son would be treated there. When I went back last to visit (Feb 2004), some nasty comments were made about my then Taiwanese gf, which is a big part of the reason I never went back again. Frankly, I love the Taiwanese, and there is a certain demographic in SA that as a white person I would be exposed to way to frequently that I wouldn’t want to associate with at all. Sadly, they’re rather unavoidable. So it’s a fairly easy choice for me, just based on that.


#93

When i was a young’un i said “hey it would be nice to visit South Africa one day”. My mom said “oh racist country”. Then i said i’d like to visit Australia. And my mom said “oh racist country”.

I guess SA hasn’t changed but has Australia?


#94

[quote=“tommy525”]When I was a young’un I said “hey it would be nice to visit South Africa one day”. My mom said “oh racist country”. Then I said I’d like to visit Australia. And my mom said “oh racist country”.

I guess SA hasn’t changed but has Australia?[/quote]
South Africa has changed, Tommy. One-blinded-by-racism-couldn’t-make-it-back-home Saffa doesn’t make the country racist. People there live their lives, get along well for the most part and are busy getting on with whatever they’re getting on. It has problems, and it has racists (of all shades and colours), but isn’t the same also true for the US?


#95

I feel that 2 + 2 = 5. If you feel that 2 + 2 = 4 then we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Yours truly,
Winston Smith


#96

[quote=“Winston Smith”]I feel that 2 + 2 = 5. If you feel that 2 + 2 = 4 then we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Yours truly,
Winston Smith[/quote]
There is a massive difference between fact and opinion. How you feel about a person is opinion. The sum of two numbers are not. That’s why they are placed in different positions when preceding a noun. We say three cute cats. Not cute three cats.


#97

So can sexism. And especially along gender lines.


#98

[quote=“E04teacherlin”][quote=“Winston Smith”]I feel that 2 + 2 = 5. If you feel that 2 + 2 = 4 then we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Yours truly,
Winston Smith[/quote]
There is a massive difference between fact and opinion. How you feel about a person is opinion. The sum of two numbers are not. That’s why they are placed in different positions when preceding a noun. We say three cute cats. Not cute three cats.[/quote]

‘I feel that Nelson Mandela is a terrorist’ and ‘I feel that 2+2 = 5’ have the same ring to them though in my opinion – and since it’s my opinion I don’t care what anybody else says. Bottom line though is I’m giving up calling Nelson Mandela a terrorist until I see some evidence because I don’t trust my feelings enough to make them the sole basis for accusing somebody of committing crimes.


#99

[quote=“Winston Smith”][quote=“E04teacherlin”][quote=“Winston Smith”]I feel that 2 + 2 = 5. If you feel that 2 + 2 = 4 then we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Yours truly,
Winston Smith[/quote]
There is a massive difference between fact and opinion. How you feel about a person is opinion. The sum of two numbers are not. That’s why they are placed in different positions when preceding a noun. We say three cute cats. Not cute three cats.[/quote]

‘I feel that Nelson Mandela is a terrorist’ and ‘I feel that 2+2 = 5’ have the same ring to them though in my opinion – and since it’s my opinion I don’t care what anybody else says. Bottom line though is I’m giving up calling Nelson Mandela a terrorist until I see some evidence because I don’t trust my feelings enough to make them the sole basis for accusing somebody of committing crimes.[/quote]
He may have been a terrorist back in the 60s (or at least planned and signed off on terror attacks, but didn’t participate directly, although some would call those acts counter-insurgency), but he spent 27 years in prison for it, and made a huge contribution towards peace and reconciliation after his release in 1990. The issue isn’t black and white, there are many shades of gray, as there are many sides to the man (like most of us).


#100

I’m just concerned that if Nelson Mandela was indeed on the US terror watch list and only taken of when he turned 90, as El Toro stated, why didn’t they arrest him in 1990 when he visited the US? Those incompetent Americans :smiley: I guess 2+2 is only 5 if you are American.
Then again, if El Toro actually posted the entire truth and not a half truth, we would all have known that he is talking rubbish. All ANC members were on the terror watch list due to the South African government labeling the ANC a terror organization and the US following suit. They considered it a huge embarrassment and this ruling calling them a terror organization was subsequently altered just before Mandela’s 90th birthday. There now you have all the facts and 2+2 is 4 again. Oh the relief. Here is a news article for El Toro and his clan if they don’t believe the above.
usatoday.com/news/world/2008 … list_N.htm

Mandela isn’t a saint and he never was. He was part of a terror organization that bombed innocent civilians. He was also the person who did a lot to help with a peaceful transformation in South Africa as far as I understand. No-one is perfect, but the negativity and rubbish spread by some people is above belief.