Why the need to defend Taiwan?

Hi

I’m just wondering why people get so defensive about Taiwan.

Many times people post that they don’t like certain aspects of Taiwan, that they even hate it here. And then people who love it here will reply with beautiful posts about the fruit and the activities and things that makes Taiwan special to them.

So what? I’m sure people that hate it here need more than tea to make them happy?! And so what if someone doesn’t like their job, or complains about their life. “Get out if you hate it so much” is obviously the first thing that people want to do when they don’t like it here. But I know it isn’t THAT easy to just pack up and go. Many times you have binding contracts, debt from borrowing money to come here etc…

Many people all around the world live in areas they don’t like, or they want a life that is better…it’s not that damn easy to live the perfect life.

No two people on this Earth are the same…Why does it bug everyone so much if people don’t experience Taiwan the same way they do?

I’m not bitching…I’m just vocalising…

I think the reason people get defensive about it has to do with the way the complaints are phrased. People don’t usually say “I’m feeling culture-shocked, I don’t understand what’s going on, I’m sick of the pollution and all that and right now I personally want to go home. Maybe I have to deal with it for a year, but this isn’t for me.”

Instead the response is usually like “Taiwan sucks! Taiwanese people are incomprehensible! This atmosphere is unliveable and what kind of rogue would drive a scooter on a sidewalk?” etc etc. That’s not a considerate statement of unhappy feelings, it’s a bunch of statements that Taiwan is no good, objectively. Of course it doesn’t make sense – there’s no such thing as absolutely objectively good and bad when it comes to whether a place is worth living in – but when people talk about it that way it gets others all riled up. It’s like calling someone else’s baby ugly. The baby won’t notice or care, the parent will get ticked off, and the person who said it in the first place would’ve been better off saying something like “I’m not a baby person” or “I like rounder babies myself.”

That’s not to absolve Taiwan-supporters of doing the same thing when sticking up for Taiwan, but it’s a bit less obnoxious than when a culture-shocked laowai grumbles about how this place sucks compared to Topeka.

I have noticed the same trend on my Blog (for the most part). Random people, mostly from Forumosa, ‘gang-banging’ and skimming a few of my prolific entries, then choosing to respond only to what they consider to be ‘negative attitude’ (which is actually often fact, with or without my opinion), and then usually boiling it down to some self-righteous ‘awareness’ speech, making it personal by assuming they know all about me (even going so far as to slander me personally with vile and childish language-even when my posts have nothing to do with me), then giving me ultimative advice I never asked for; which is often a give-up attitude of “leave”. NEVER have any of them Commented on the information I am sure they might view as more ‘positive’, nor apologized for misconstruing fact or even myself as a whole while they were so busy making my posts into something personal and unprogressive.

In some regards, I can parallel these very similiar instances happening to Uly in another thread, as had almost identically also happened to me on this forum some months back when my polemic Blog -and posts on Forumosa-became the current controversy. I think there is a bigger issue that Uly was trying to adress, that many have completely missed the point of.

What most fail to realize is that people who ‘bitch, moan and whine’ don’t even necessarily do it out of personal disgruntledness (though even if they do, that is also valid FACT adding to the statistics - doesn’t Taiwan have one of the, if not THE, highest suicide rates in the world?! That says something about life for the locals, doesn’t it??), but some of them are actually well travelled, incredibly aware, educated, experienced, NOT in Culture Shock, etc… individuals who are simply interested in their Taiwan surroundings enough to make honest observations and contributions. THAT’S POSITIVE because THEY CARE!! It doesn’t imply they are not capable of dealing with their surroundings, nor that they are filled with depression or rage. It could really be as simple as them being sincerely interested, while being able to add more to their plate by initiating a discussion, or at least disseminating the information.
Unlike the complacent masses, they choose to live here, choose to research it empirically and historically, and they choose to make the time in their busy lives to create a voice on behalf of/WITH the millions who DO have to live in this society without choice, but have been conditioned to “not think too much” and live in silent complacency. <---- That is (IN MY OPINION), one of many self destructive beliefs/values/attitudes that is eating away at this place (despite Taiwan’s infinite achievements in the recent past); as it is counter productively hindering the environment and process of further becoming who this island seems to make quite obvious it wants to become; 1st world. (And if you read the Lonely Planet Guidebook, and follow history; one would clearly realize that this is common knowledge; that thousands of years of social conditioning by ill-willed emperors and leaders had misconstrued initial Confuscian Philosophy to be interpreted in such a counter productive manner, through Taoist, etc… preachings and other societal values, so as to pacify the masses into accepting their politic and economy.)

Daring to speak on behalf of not only myself, but many others on this forum (and not), our “Rants and raves” are not necessarily about “generalizing” or being “ethno-centric”, “racist” or any other terminology favoured amoung the politically correct (and in some cases assumptive) individuals; it’s about culture and analyzing some of the fundamental principles and morale driving that culture (culture is general by definition anyways); not in order to rebel, but rather to aid in creating MORE of this ‘AWARENESS’ by using a public medium which doesn’t directly threaten anyone individually. People have the option to be interested or not. (Now THAT’S peaceful freedom, not hateful.)

YES, there are great things about Taiwan, as there are bad things (just as there are ANYWHERE in the world), but I think this ‘ranting and raving’ is not always just about that. Underlying the ‘bitching and moaning’ it is about what can WE ALL do to make it (Taiwan, or anywhere in the world) even better?! THAT’S why we speak up; whether we bitch, or merely observe facts; at least we are thinking because we care and are trying to progress.

Progressive thought is often what makes changes in our world, and is said to lead some of the more beneficial countries.

Those who assumptively devalidate and underestimate a person’s ability to recognize the positive from the negative (based on a few pieces of their writing, which is aimed to adress one particular issue anyways-not who THEY personally are as a whole over the course of their lifetime), or those who simply slander an individual for his/her observations, or assume, that just because they bitched or merely stated valid fact, that this person has an attitude problem (and then try to send them on a road trip to self help), are doing the very devaluative generelizations they claim the OP to be doing; and in turn, are also slowing the progressive process down.

We shouldn’t have to be convinced to have to ‘accept’ complacent, unprogressive injustice, nor any of the hundreds of signs and facts/observations around it, to prove that things aren’t right in a place, by making things personal and trying to convince someone of the pros to a place.

We can recognize the pros, but it isn’t the pros that are the issue…

I think that a majority of the attitude may stem from the growing frustration that many people feel about the fact that 9/10 of the time they meet a fellow WaiGuo, they have to listen to the idiot talk down about the Taiwanese and talk down about Taiwan in general.
I think that for many hearing it over and over gets old. And for some, I think it may be a frustration with people who are convinced that thier home country is right, that everything they grew up with is right, and that there cannot be more than one right answer.

I think sometimes it’s just a symptom of culture shock to get on a message board and unleash one’s frustration on the keyboard. It would be nice to see the posters who do this come back and tell us when they’ve gotten over it.

Fair enough, to some, it may even be a symptom of Culture Shock…
After all, many people do go through Culture Shock. Others even go through Reverse Culture Shock.

But what would it be called if the same issues, vents or concerns were being mentioned by locals who have never even lived or travelled abroad??

I find it hard to understand as well. If I criticise my own country (plenty of material there!) that’s fine. If I criticise Taiwan that’s not fine. Apparently it’s OK if I’m actually Taiwanese.

But criticising Taiwan is boring. No-one really cares. I used to do it online to annoy the kind of foreigner to whom 連臺灣的屁都是香的. But it got boring - and scary. I put it doen to people desperately trying to convince themselves that everythings alright and they’ve made the right decision by coming to Taiwan and Goddammit they’re going to like it come hell or high water. I suppose once I have run out of options I will be the same, but until then…

And dudes, Taipei IS ugly. If there is anyone here who genuinely thinks this place is aesthetically pleasing, than you are very very lucky, as 99% of my problem with this place is how mind-bogglingly ugly it is. (But I haven’t found a beautiful place I’d like to live, so I guess Taipei’s other benefits more than make up for this! :slight_smile: )

I have seen a lot of Taiwan now and I liked it.

But my NeiHu apartment, with fresh spit stains on my doorstep, placed there by men who wear blue plastic “slippers”, strolling farting and belching through the staircase, dogs peeing in the staircase, smelly garbage piles on balconies and the ever-present loud and smelly scooters do not get even a tiny bit nicer by knowing how nice other places in Taiwan are. Also the pollution of the exhaust of the car in front of me, when I stand as a pedestrian in stalled traffic and cannot pass as there is no sidewalk, does not smell like flowers from it - even if East-Taiwan has lots of fresh air elsewhere.
Taipei is a polluted ugly nightmare, being strangled by traffic, traffic, traffic, occupying every inch and making raising kids here almost impossible (my Taiwan-nephew is a fat kid, watching 10 hours TV on the weekends and never going out).
STOP! I personally hate it, but it is the power and right of people here to make their city this way, they seem to love it (my wife does).
Bob gets bobbingmad here sometimes and is trying to escape one more time (wife: get your hand off my passport!)

BobScooterBlueSandalRefugee

I agree that it depends on the wording of the post. But if someone tells me that they think Taiwan sucks…it doesn’t stir any emotions inside me. Of course if they say people that like Taiwan sucks, I would say fine and walk away.

It’s just odd that people get VERY rude when trying to defend Taiwan. Coming to Taiwan is almost like going to the movies. You see the ad, you think it looks good (because usually all the best snippets are used) so you spend money on a ticket.

Halfway through the movie you realise that it sucks. But you stay…for a couple of reasons.

  1. You spent money on the ticket.
  2. You maybe came with a friend, and you don’t want to drop your friend.
  3. There MIGHT be a twist at the end that makes the whole movie worthwile
  4. If you get up it will disturb the people behind you.

So you sit through the whole ordeal, enjoying some parts, hating others.( Having a couple of cool moments in a movie doesn’t make it a good movie) So you walk out and complain to your friend that the movie sucked. I doubt that anyone hearing you will jump on you and attack your mother’s origin etc…

Of course if you sit and complain throughout the movie and it spoils the experience for the other people, they can jump on you. But how can posting on a forum spoil the Taiwan experience for everyone?

It’s just funny how someone will complain about a country…and then people will call them terrible names. As if that isn’t just as bad…

Eish

[quote=“Battery9”]Hi

I’m just wondering why people get so defensive about Taiwan.

Many times people post that they don’t like certain aspects of Taiwan, that they even hate it here. And then people who love it here will reply with beautiful posts about the fruit and the activities and things that makes Taiwan special to them.

So what? I’m sure people that hate it here need more than tea to make them happy?! And so what if someone doesn’t like their job, or complains about their life. “Get out if you hate it so much” is obviously the first thing that people want to do when they don’t like it here. But I know it isn’t THAT easy to just pack up and go. Many times you have binding contracts, debt from borrowing money to come here etc…

Many people all around the world live in areas they don’t like, or they want a life that is better…it’s not that damn easy to live the perfect life.

No two people on this Earth are the same…Why does it bug everyone so much if people don’t experience Taiwan the same way they do?

I’m not bitching…I’m just vocalising…[/quote]

People mention the things they love because they know that it is not always easy to get the right information living here. I lived in Taipei 4 years without realizing I could drive to Fulong via the mountains in just over an hour, before I discovered all the great hiking along the Pingxi line, and so on.

You’d be surprised how many people just don’t realize what they can do in Taiwan. I’ve met people who’ve been here a year and never seen an opera, never seen or even heard of Cloud Gate or another modern taiwanese dance troupe, never had tea in the mountains, never hiked a trail in Yangmingshan let along any of the other mountainous areas that ring this city, never been to a hot spring, never swam in a river, never been to a flower market, or browsed for antiques, never been to a good Chinese dim sum, never been to a museum other than the Palace and sometimes not even that. These people go to work, go home, eat crap food all the time in cafeterias and drink and smoke at night. Not surprisingly they feel like shit and complain all the time. With this kind of lifestyle you are pretty much garanteed to feel lousy, and to have big mood swings because of the amount of sugar and alcohol and fat and tobacco in your diet. In addition, your self-image takes a beating as you gain weight, and battle with low energy.

One reason people get defensive and angry is that it is clear a lot of the people complaining just aren’t genuinely looking for a solution. Uly complained about the lack of culture in Taiwan, yet when I mentioned that while yes Taipei is not a centre for cutting edge theatre, it is great if you love painting, opera, dance, puppetry, temples, antiquities, and so on. Did Uly thank me for pointing him in the right direction? No. And so why should I continue to have any tolerance for his problems? He comes across as spoiled and immature and sooner or later you run out of patience with people who won’t help themselves. “Oh, poor me, I can’t find my favorite alternative art form performed at the level and quality I want. The place I live in is therefore unqualified shit.”

We have opportunities in taiwan that don’t exist anywhere else. If I meet someone hwo has exhausted these possibilities and is restless to move on to new challenges I would not care to argue with him about the merits of this country. But the people who come on Forumosa bitching are usually not like this. Instead, they are consumer-minded half-wits who usually complain that they can’t get what they had back home and refuse to open their eyes to what they can get here which is worthwhile getting. In addition, they occassionally suggest that if you like it here you must be stupid.

Given this, is it really so hard to see why people get defensive and impatient?

Please remember, for some of us, Taiwan is our home. We are not simply visiting/making a few bucks and then leaving. I don’t call my country of birth “home”. I call Taiwan home. Who wants to hear others complaining about your home? I rarely hear complaints from the foreigners who have choosen to make Taiwan their home. However, I do usually hear it coming from the “newbies” who will never call it home.

Taiwan is what YOU make it. That’s it.

Same as any other country in this beautiful world.

[quote=“Muzha Man”]
We have opportunities in Taiwan that don’t exist anywhere else.
… [/quote]

Great post, MM

I totally agree Muzha Man. It’s often people who are here to make as much money as fast as they can and then flee with zero interest vested in Asian culture who have the negative view of Taiwan. Well, if pass your time working and drinking in the cheapest accomodation possible, then I can see how Taiwan would look bleak. If you put some effort into it, though, you can find some incredible nooks and crannies of beauty, even if you never leave Taipei City. People who think CKS or SYS Memorial Halls are just places for kids to roller blade on the weekend without ever stepping foot into the performances in the buildings there or just enjoying all the things that are happening at these places outside.

People who hate it here and complain about the noise, pollution, lack of culture, etc. don’t need to be told “If you don’t like it, then leave.” They need to be asked, “Why are you here?” I think taking a look at your reasons will explain a lot on why you have the outlook you do and help you change it, if you should want to.

“Everyone talks about the weather, but no one ever does anything about it.”

  • Mark Twain

Taiwan is my home too. So is South-Africa. I’ve been here for 4 years…

There are a lot of things you can do here…the language barrier makes it difficult though. But it’s still possible to find great ways to entertain yourself.

I just don’t find myself defending my home, or even myself when I am called a racist farmer. I try to educate people, but what they say really doesn’t affect me, or the the view I have of my country. Same as here.

People hardly notice, or compliment positive things. It’s the way of the world!

So what you are saying is that you are indifferent?

Taiwan has never ceased to amaze me, and that’s why I chose to come here. I did some of my research. It’s the ideal place to experience politics, economy and culture; in a junction where 1st world meets the 3rd. I

PS: I still remember a time, several months ago, on Forumosa when it was my turn to get the brunt of the ‘lecturing’, and Muzha Man was an avid participator in that one. He didn’t believe much of what I had to say, and also assumed that I hadn’t gone out and done my research. Once I posted what he might consider ‘valid’ proof of my arguments (in other words, not my own words but some PHD words), he disappeared, without responding to the positive.

I don’t care about others feelings about this place. I care about what I experience.

Because what you were saying I considered pure drivel and not worth my time disputing any further. Choose your battles, as my mother always said.

And if you think I am making “my defenses ugly” you are way off base. Like many who get involved in these disputes, my intentions (while mixed) are muchly of the desire to be of help to those who are having trouble here. That’s why I’m a mod on this site. It’s not to pick on bright young things like you. :unamused: