Great post Wamgdoodle
clee, you are quite right that we all have to be careful with the stereotyping. I’m certainly guilty as charged. And you are also correct, in your own way, that there are a lot of cultures in the world that share similar characteristics with Taiwanese culture.
I can totally understand how you might find some of the comments on this thread - and on Forumosa in general - offensive. My advice would be (not that you asked for it) to NOT take it personally. In other words, take it for what it is - don’t take it as an offense.
I think that the vast majority of people’s comments about Taiwan and the Taiwanese, here on Forumosa, including a lot of stereotyping (which is often used for expediency’s sake when you are typing in a forum - who has time to qualify everything they say), isn’t coming from a racist place. Making obesrvations about the host culture, including venting a bit of frustration, is a normal part of the expat experience. I’m sure that you overseas students in the states, do it too.[/quote]
I am not taking you guys’ words offensively, just a reminder. I want other people to stay open minded.
When I was dating my future wife, my parents were dead set against us even seeing eachother. They had a long list of who she could not marry - no mainlanders, no aboriginies, no Japanese…and the list goes on. They live in rural Pingtung. The only person in her family that would have anything to do with me was one of her elder sisters who was a nurse in Taipei and had a better idea of the “outside” world. This was all going on in the background. My Taiwanese was not good enough to follow and in general I can be pretty oblivious at times.
My wife actually came up with an inspired plan, two years into the relationship, she invited me to her home in Pingtung. Her mother and father of course strenously objected - they said “no way, don’t bring him within 100 paces”. She ignored them and did not tell me. Because I did not know, I acted normally when I arrived. Because politeness is a general part of Taiwan culture, they pretended to be polite to thier guest. It actually worked out. After I left, they decided that while less than fully desireable, I was OK - not too tall, not too blond, at least spoke Chinese, and was generally polite. The next time the resistance wasn’t so great. Slowly over time, my realtionship with my future parents in law built up. (my wife did not tell me about “event” this until we were ready to get married). By then end, after five years, they were pushing my wife to get married.
It can be done - but it’s important to remember that normal relationships are not easy, inter-cultural ones just that much more difficult. You do mary the family in addition to the girl to some extent - so if you’re going to be married into Archie Bunkers family, then get ready for it. How does Popeye say it, " you makes your choices and you takes your chances"
Postscript - the real trouble did not come until we had kids - then the culture war really began. But, it’s not just me, since my brother in law had the same thing and he’s Taiwanese. Some times it’s culture, some times it’s just parents-in-law.
Excellent thread. Great posts by mwalimu, wangdoodle, and others.
Erick, first, I think that everything you’ve said and how you’ve said it is perfectly fine and understandable. You don’t come across as me-centered at all. Rather, polite, considerate, and sincere in searching for a thoughtful solution.
Lots of familiar notes in this song.
Maybe in contrast to some of the first-hand heartfelt stories, and in spite of hesitancy to generalize, I will just say these two things that might help with perspective:
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Seems to me that most of what you are encountering, rather than being some 5% unusual attitude, is actually stereotypical Taiwanese.
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You said that your GF was 26 and mature enough to make her own decisions. When it comes to dealing with their families, for many Taiwanese (women and men), you can subtract about 10 years from their chronological ages to get an idea of the type of autonomy that you can expect to see demonstrated. The standard Western idea of an autonomous adult, even in the obvious financial ways, not to mention the less clear-cut philosophical ways, is certainly not prevalent in this culture.
Obviously, your mileage may vary.
You’re getting some priceless information here. I’m sure everything will work out. Good luck to you and your girl.
Good Lord, it’s attack of the Sensitive 90s Men.
Sorry, but I just don’t understand why anyone would want to marry into a family that treats you so disrespectfully. I think if you are dating someone whose family doesn’t like you, goes to fortune tellers, treats their adult children like personal property, etc., dump them and move on. There are lots of fish in the sea.
In the West, when we marry someone from a poorer, illiterate family in a developing country, we call that marrying down. That certainly doesn’t devalue your g/b friend and their value as a human being, but why marry into a family that is going to treat you like dirt? The fact that she lets them have so much power over her is a bad sign of things to come. Or is this the case of I just “don’t understand hetero culture”?
That being said, I think Elegua did the right thing, by slowly and surely, and EARLY becoming a part of his in-law’s life.
Sorry but Wow that’s arrogant.
Sorry but Wow that’s arrogant.[/quote]
I knew I was going to get clobbered on that, but I just feel frustrated because a lot of posters just won’t call a spade a spade. Oprah has done numerous shows about people who marry down, where they openly call it “marrying down”, and no one pulls any punches, but when we apply it here, people just go into a tizzy fit.
I am assuming most of these men are college grads (in order to work here legally) and make at least twice the salary of the average Taiwanese man and their inlaws ought to be thrilled their daughters have found resourceful, intelligent, independent and caring men to marry. If they can’t see that and are going to be hostile and disrespectful, why stick around or even consider being a part of that family?
I think several posters have hit on the common link for this topic.
I would imagine that almost every foreignor married or thinking about marriage to a local girl has faced this same issue, in one form or another.
The main point really, is the GF prepared to stand up for herself and her wishes, this seems to be one of the more important factors, not just over seeing you, but for anything where she and her parents disagree.
As someone who is married to a local, with several friends in the same boat, this seems to have been a key in making the whole idea work. If the parents are used to having their daughter think for herself and not bow down to their wishes, then it becomes a lot easier, if not then whilst it can be done, it is extremely more difficult, sometimes nigh on impossible.
If the latter, then be prepared for a long struggle, only you can decide whether the end is worth the pain.
Thanks very much everyone for your expressing your views and sharing your experiences. It is somewhat reassuring to hear from other people who have had similar experiences to me and have been able to survive those problems. I am not sure whether I feel more or less confident of success but I do think listening to your experiences maybe beneficial for my relationship in the future.
Miscreant,
I believe my girlfriend is willing to stand up for herself but I think it is just a matter of time. She is trying to give her parents lots of time to adjust to the prospect of her daughter marrying a foreigner. I think she knows her mother very well and I trust her to know the best way of going about this. I think or least I hope that over time she will just wear her mother down until she has no other choice but to accept us being together. She believes if I meet them a few more times and they get to know me more then hopefully they will be more accepting. They can’t speak any English and my Chinese is not too good so I will have to improve. My girlfriend and her younger brother have to do lots of translating when I am communicating with her parents.
Elegua,
What do you mean when you said the culture war began when you started having kids? Did the kids improve the relationship with your in-laws or did they make it worse?
Well, what I said was a little tongue-in-cheek, so don;t take me too seriously 
But, that won’t stop me from saying more…
When it was just my wife and I, if the parents had issues with activities like scuba diving or windsurfing, no big deal…it was just my wife and I.
When it comes to kids however - these are MY kids. You can suggest, propose, consult on how they shoudl be treated or raised, but in the end my call or my wife’s call is final. This does not necessarily go well with the “respect for elders”. Taiwanese have very, very different views of how to properly raise kids. Generally they let kids get away with murder and think it’s cute. They pick-up and rock the baby every 10min or every peep - which if you have a newborn means you and your wife are going to be very tired. My attitude is generally that kids are smarter than we think and should be taught the right way from day one, the longer you wait on any particular behavior, the harder it is to change. Kids inately understand what behavior is expected of them and what they can get away with. They never let the kids go outside and over-dress them until they are sweating bullets. They never let kids experiment with food…etc…You wouldn’t believe how hard it was to get my kids to the beach (my god - they might eat some sand!!!). I thought it was me until
my brother in law wanted my mother-in-law to help out taking care of his son until they saw the difference between my kids and thier son. Then the troubles started with them too…You let the parent in too much and then they start taking over things.
What does this mean? Maybe only that kids won’t fix a broken relationship, and just may complicate one?
when it comes to the kids: THE BATTLE IS ON, take no prisoners, lol. my attitude is generally that parents-in-law are not as smart as they think and should be taught the right way from day one etc, lol
No tizzy fit. I just find that kind of language offensive. How many people struggling up out of less developed circumstances in fact have more strength and depth of character than your average Western University graduate? Quite a few I’d say. Oprah has enough money to do what she wants and I have enough to disagree on occassion, although I doubt anyone will notice. 
Whoooaaa!!! 
This thread has given me ample food for thought. I have given serious consideration to the whole marrying a local thing, but now I’m kinda starting to think it may just be a better option to grow old alone. Maybe my sisters kids and her family should be enough…lol
I had flashbacks of my last Taiwanese girlfriend. Born in Taiwan, raised in Singapore. Perfect English. Educated at Cambridge. One of two sisters, the younger one being married to a French lad and living in France. Perfect right? Until I went home with her for Chinese new year. Talking about nothing in particular her mother starts to cry. Actually I thought she was laughing and laughed too, which only added to my embarrassment once I realised she was crying… Why was she crying? Because she was worried about us and our future together… 
Her mom was also always meddling in the relationship and eventualluy I just couldn’t take it all anymore.
But to be honest, it was a perfect example of a girl who couldn’t stand up to her mother and did everything she said. That’s an unattractive trait in anyone, not just a Taiwanese xiao jie.
Well, if one’s living and teaching in Taiwan (or if one has plans to), and you have a Taiwanese girlfriend, I say “What the hell.” Get married, start classes in your home, and make a bundle. Salt the money away and don’t give any to anyone. You can always get divorced. Serves everyone right for giving you a headache. Make their nightmares come true. It’s almost lke they’re asking for it anyway, If anything, it adds another plot line to their Taiwanese soap opera.
A mother insultingly crying in front of me. I’d laugh too because the whole situation would be rather comical. Crocodile tears.
The behaviour of the local ladies is diverse, but by all accounts, common threads seem to run through them all. Family, personal desires, strength of character look like the top three.
Family. Lets face it, there are a lot of adult males who are pigs. Worldwide. MrsHill’s father is a pig, for example. He is racist, unpolite, unbending, and generally lords it over everyone. Why? Cos he struck it rich, despite his tendency to be piggish. New pig money. Yuk. And there are many many men like this. I must always remember that this man educated my partner. His money paid for her education and also her slavery. Many girls, or so it seems, are loyally devoted to their families, but deep deep down they wish they weren’t. This brings me nicely to part 2.
Personal desires. Common pastimes seem shallow to the ‘cultured’ foreigner, who conveniently forgets they are addicted to drugs to get through their lives. (booze, fags, puff, pills, canadian bacon.) My partner may be moody from time to time, but that is because she denies herself the sweet sweet pleasure of total annihilation, on a weekly/daily basis. Hats off to her. So maybe she likes shopping, or drinking tea. Maybe she hasn’t ridden a mountain bike. Drag her kicking and screaming from the sofa and force her to look at God’s magnificence. She will see it, just as you do.
Strength of character. This is where we all, to a man, fail. I am weak, she is weak. Her family and mine too: weak. Mothers display emotional shallowness, Fathers display emotional detatchment. Your girl will have to stand in the middle of all this, and deal with our whining “I wanna go live in X where the grass is greener, and the trolls are smaller, and I can earn a decent crust.” Poor cow. To whom should she show her loyalty? To ma and pa who raised her and taught her her values. To herself: who tells her 'things ain’t right, you want something else." Or to Whitey, who tells her, “we’d be happier off if x,y and z didnt exist.”
All in all I’d say as noodle scratchers go this is a dilly of a pickle. Hats off to all who stay sane. Hts off to the local ladies who are brave enough to take another path. Forewarned is never forearmed!
This is a TomHill production. Support the quote game. Funk500 is afraid to leave his house until you get his guest quote.
TomHeel.
Well put Mr. Hill.
But in my mind, when you marry across cultural lines - you are opting “out” just as much as you are opting “in”. You’re saying to a certain degree, “I want something else”. When you do so, you will reap both the rewards, and pay the price, for your choice. Just do it with your eyes open.
If you want to avoid all this, of course, then marry the girl next door. I could never do that. I’d die of boredome or lack of something to whinge about.
[quote=“Elegua”]Well put Mr. Hill.
But in my mind, when you marry across cultural lines - you are opting “out” just as much as you are opting “in”. You’re saying to a certain degree, “I want something else”. When you do so, you will reap both the rewards, and pay the price, for your choice. Just do it with your eyes open.
If you want to avoid all this, of course, then marry the girl next door. I could never do that. I’d die of boredome or lack of something to whinge about.[/quote]
The girl next door eh? The one was black (Zulu actually) and the other one was Indian. The Zulu girl comes from a very traditional Zulu family still into ancestor worship combined with a form of Christianity (The Zionist Christian Church). The Indian girl comes from a fairly liberal rich Hindu family, not very keen on the young lady marrying anyone but a nice Hindu Indian lad. Me? in the middle from a fairly liberal, christian white family. Both girls were smoking hot (in my humble opinion), but would have been no different culturally from marrying a local Taiwanese lass…
Although, I doubt any of their mothers would have cried. The Indian girls father may have set the dogs on me, however…
culture difference, parents have much more influence on their kids in eastern culture, stronger family bound.
I think being bound, which starts with swaddling as an infant, is a main obstacle in the common theme
Parents have a strong influence on their kids everywhere. And you can find stong ties in families everywhere.
I think Ironman said something in another thread that I can’t seem to find anymore, which is along the lines of:
Taiwanese parents just have problems understanding that their children are not their property, and that they do not have the right to make every decision in their children’s lives.
While this sort of belief exists in what you would call “western” countries, it is to a much lesser degree. And those parents are considered controlling and emotionally abusive.