Will the US isolate itself

Politics International Politics
1

With the current trend in US foreign policy - as heavily promoted by Fred and our immorologist moderator - see the US becoming more and more isolated from the rest of the world? Even its trade policy is bringing it more and more often into conflict within the WTO due to unfair practices.
Its attitude is quite obviously protect the US and the US way of life at all costs. What makes the US way of life so correct?

The US it seems is determined to stamp its version of acceptable behaviour on the rest of the world, it complains about human rights in other countries, but still employs the death penalty in its own. It continues to rely on intelligence provided by agencies - that even according to our IP forum mod - have at least in the case of Iraq been inaccurate for several years, yet still they make decisions based on it.

For many years it has been US foreign policy, particulalry in the Middle East, that has created the circumstances and the political ideology that has given rise to todays terrorists.

Fred talks about democracy being the answer, is it? Both the Phillipines and Indonesia have elected governements, therefore democratic, but both still have terrorist groups operating within their countries, so does democracy work in reducing terrorism? This from a country where a presidential candidate receives a greater percentage of the popular vote but is not elected President. Democracy at work?

2

Too simplistic Traveller:

But I will try to explain.

First, I would argue that the US is NOT isolated. I would argue that by any standard, Germany and France isolated themselves in the lead up to the Iraq War and the UN made itself irrelevant. Now, Germany is back in the fold and France continues to thrash around. If anyone is isolated it is France and the UN and not the US.

Now, there are policies that we must pursue in our own interests but these need not be at the expense of our friends, allies or those that are neutral.

First, we need to take our troops out of Europe. Not because I hate Europe but because this has allowed an unhealthy dependency and fostered an unrealistic expectation among the populace about the benefits of “peaceful dialogue.”

Second, we need to keep trade moving freely. The EU is antithical to free trade in many ways. Look at the excessive rules and regulations about the size and shape and color of a banana or the protection that France continues to mete out to its companies. We must side with the rest of the world and demand that agricultural subsidies be ended even if that means doing so unilaterally without an agreement from Europe.

Third, we must say to the Arab world, Israel is a democracy has rule of law and respects human rights. There are problems but not one of your nations lives up to its example. Sorry, but we will continue to support it and that is the ugly truth. Get over it. These are the realities. Now, let’s move on to making your citizens freer and richer and stop pointing the finger at Israel.

Fourth, we can continue to cooperate with nations to isolate and seal off Iran and North Korea, but must do more to end problems in nations like Syria, Saudi Arabia and most worrying of all Pakistan.

There is so much that we can cooperate on but we need to be more honest, especially with our European friends about sharing responsibility. Europe does not pull its weight or anywhere near it considering how much it benefits from trade because of the US security umbrella. It needs to do more and will if we step away.

Finally, despite all the heated talk between Europe and America, the two are tied at the hip. We are almost one economic entity. What hurts one hurts the other. So for all the political resentment (and I share some as well) we will continue to cooperate because it is in our best interests. But for Europe, the free ride for security is soon to be over. Let’s see what that does for French and Germany budget deficits. Could raise them by 1 to 1.5 percent. Not much but think about it when they are already at 4.0 to 4.5 percent. 6.0 is not very sustainable. And people worry about America’s 3.5 percent?

3

Traveller,

Thank you kindly describing me as an “immorologist”.

Or, are you unaware that a morologist is a “boring fool who speaks nonsense”?

I guess that makes me the opposite thereof.

You’re not such a bad guy, afterall.

4

The analysis is just too complex for you, eh?

That is pathetic. Care to explain how the US policy in the middle east has caused the rise of Islamofascism?

Well, if you want to rely on antecdotal evidence to support your absurd assertion… you lose.

Care to compare the number of democratic nations with free societies that are doing well to the number of democratic nations with free societies that are not doing well?

Gee, what conclusion can you draw from that comparison?

5

The Crusades and Occupation by the British for years has a major part to play in this also

Would disengagement from the Middle East solve the problem, maybe not. Its envitable that our paths we will cross.

People in the Middle East live under suppression. When you suppress something for a while it is going to explode. Will it explode on the dictator who suppresses and brainwashes the people?
No it will explode on the someone else of course. I mean look at Hitler, a dictator who united the people of Germany by vilifying all those who were not German

Look at how Bin Laden gains support. By brainwashing uneducated people and blaming everything on the USA.
But at the same time to these fanatics, its nothing within the Arab world that causes their problems. No its the West
A great human weakeness is to blame your problems on someone else or circumstance, that way you are under no obligation to take control and accountability.

I made this point on another post. If the Arab world really wants to sort its shit out then they got to work together. But they can’t. They speak of Palestine and vilify the west but at the same time sell the west oil. They speak of the Koran and Allah but then go kill eachother in tribal wars. They want an Islamic state that is but a dictatorship.

Should we intervene and mess around in this?

I’ll say no and the problem remains, but we are not involved and can live our everyday lives secure in our belief that no problem exists in the Middle East since we are not there creating it.
I’ll say yes. Its messy, but at least that way we have some influence. At times good and times bad

6

Fred, question was not IS the US isolated now, but WILL it become isolated if it continues its current policies.

For removal of troops in europe, whilst hardly rlevant, i agree with you if you remeber, today would be nice, tomorrow will do, yesterday is better.

Fred, sorry, the EU whilst it haves it faults it stance in genereal on free trade is far less antithical than that of the US.

Israel does not respect human rights, in fact it is almost as apartheid as the original South African originating regime.

IF the Us steps away as you put it, then my own belief is that Europe will not do more. Europe will continue to trade, and please explain what benefits it gets form the American security umbrella.

Cant agree that the two are tied, forty or fifty years ago maybe, but the links are diminishing rapidly. In time, and i do not think we will see it in our lifetimes, then there will be 3 powerhouses in the world, the US, Europe and China.

The US is already on the wane, hence why guys like you are so determined to try and put install American values on the rest of the world before it is to late.

NATO should be disbanded, it is no longer required, although a european wide treaty organisation is required, the threat and logic behind NATO exists no longer.

7

[quote=“TNT”]People in the Middle East live under suppression. When you suppress something for a while it is going to explode. Will it explode on the dictator who suppresses and brainwashes the people?
No it will explode on the someone else of course. I mean look at Hitler, a dictator who united the people of Germany by vilifying all those who were not German

Look at how Bin Laden gains support. By brainwashing uneducated people and blaming everything on the USA.
But at the same time to these fanatics, its nothing within the Arab world that causes their problems. No its the West
A great human weakeness is to blame your problems on someone else or circumstance, that way you are under no obligation to take control and accountability.[/quote]

You are 100% correct.

These folks who complain(ed) (wrongly) that 50 years of US mid east policy is the source of Arab and Islamofascism hypocritically now complain when Bush changes US policy in the middle east.

8

[quote=“TNT”]The Crusades and Occupation by the British for years has a major part to play in this also

Would disengagement from the Middle East solve the problem, maybe not. Its envitable that our paths we will cross.

People in the Middle East live under suppression. When you suppress something for a while it is going to explode. Will it explode on the dictator who suppresses and brainwashes the people?
No it will explode on the someone else of course. I mean look at Hitler, a dictator who united the people of Germany by vilifying all those who were not German

Look at how Bin Laden gains support. By brainwashing uneducated people and blaming everything on the USA.
But at the same time to these fanatics, its nothing within the Arab world that causes their problems. No its the West
A great human weakeness is to blame your problems on someone else or circumstance, that way you are under no obligation to take control and accountability.

I made this point on another post. If the Arab world really wants to sort its shit out then they got to work together. But they can’t. They speak of Palestine and vilify the west but at the same time sell the west oil. They speak of the Koran and Allah but then go kill eachother in tribal wars. They want an Islamic state that is but a dictatorship.

Should we intervene and mess around in this?

I’ll say no and the problem remains, but we are not involved and can live our everyday lives secure in our belief that no problem exists in the Middle East since we are not there creating it.
I’ll say yes. Its messy, but at least that way we have some influence. At times good and times bad[/quote]

TNT, to some extent i would agree about the crusades and the occupation, but would still affirm that past and current US policies in the region have exascerbated those issues.

As for Bin Laden only recruiting uneducated people, then i do not believe that is correct.

If the Middle East is such a problem area that cannot easily, quickly or without significant bloodshed be resolved, why havent our unilateralistic bush supporters been calling for the complete obliteration of the area with nuclear weapons and resolve the issue permanently. Quicker, cheaper and easier than conventional methods and would really make the other countries that might support terorrism sit up and think.

9

[quote=“Traveller”]

Israel does not respect human rights, in fact it is almost as apartheid as the original South African originating regime.[/quote]

And what are the Arabs doing about Palestine and Israel?
Why not cut off oil to the west until Israel backs down? Why not help out their Arab brethen in this way by using the oil as leverage ? Is the reality that they don’t give a damn about Palestinians and like the money more

Of course in the same way you would. Its not just protecting you way of life, its protecting those things that are encompassed within it i.e your family etc. This is human nature not foreign policy

No doubt the US way of life is not the best, neither is the Irish way of life, but compare that to lets say North Korea or Mainland China. I know for a fact that I would be leaning more to the US and Irish than to the North Korean.
How many people “jumped” the Berlin Wall into the West? How many “jumped” the Berlin Wall into the East? Who or what would you like influencing the world more North Korea, Iran or Communism?

At this point I would like to remind people, I do not trust Bush or like him, but I do see the values of what the USA stand for are better. Any country I would like to live in holds these values

10

TNT, but american values include allowing almost any schmuck to run around with a gun, where major crimes are reaching endemic proportions in the major cities, compare that to your comparisons for China etc.

I am not saying that China, Iran N Korea values are the best either, far from it but enforced placement of american values on anyone is not the solution either.

11

Not according to this report from the WTO:

And what of the report this week in the Economist on the latest figures regarding farm subsidies? The EU spent [color=red]US$ 121 billion[/color] in 2003 while the US spent [color=red]US$ 38.9 billion[/color].

How in the world do you arrive at your conclusion that the EU in its general stance on free trade is far less antithical than that of the US? Just wondering on what you base your opinion?

This reply isn’t too much in the way of semantics or pedantics, is it?

Or, is this reply irrelevant?

12

Not according to this report from the WTO:
[/quote]

Oh my, don’t get me started. Just about every country out there goes against the WTO on some things, its in their best interests (think Taiwan and rice). But BOTH the US and the EU are absolutely terrible at it. Agriculture is the obvious, completely black and white issue for both of them. Don’t even try to argue it. Combined they spend more on agricultural subsidies than the rest of the world grosses on agricultural trade. For the US specifically, try clothing, softwood lumber, beef, automobiles… the list goes on and on. I’m not too up to date on the current EU situation, but in the past it hasn’t been as bad as the US.

When you’re the leading economy and everyone and their pets are trying to get a piece, you’re able to bend the rules as you see fit and laugh all the way to the bank. 47% tariffs (now its only what, 19%?) on western Canadian softwood lumber?? In what universe is that reasonable? All because the US lumber unions were mad that the Canadian producers were like twenty years ahead in technology and 300% more efficient? Same goes for clothing from Vietnam. US workers wanted to be paid $15 bucks an hour while the Vietnamese were quite happen on 15 cents (or whatever it converts out to), so of course they couldn’t compete fairly, sooo slap on the tariffs!

13

Not according to this report from the WTO:
[/quote]

Oh my, don’t get me started. … I’m not too up to date on the current EU situation, but in the past it hasn’t been as bad as the US…[/quote]

Read Traveller’s statement. Read my reply. Read the statistics posted.

I am not arguing that the US shouldn’t do more. I am comparing/contrasting the US and EU, in general, in reply to Traveller’s statement.

14

[quote=“The Magnificent Tigerman”][quote=“Freakin’ Amazing”]

Oh my, don’t get me started. … I’m not too up to date on the current EU situation, but in the past it hasn’t been as bad as the US…[/quote]

Read Traveller’s statement. Read my reply. Read the statistics posted.

I am not arguing that the US shouldn’t do more. I am comparing/contrasting the US and EU, in general, in reply to Traveller’s statement.[/quote]

Yeah, my brain doesn’t always spit out the words in the correct syntax. Comparing between the worst two doesn’t give an overall picture, so I was comparing them both to everyone else. US being 2/3 of the EU’s percentage means nothing once compared to the rest of the world, they’re both horrible. And the “not too up to date…” statement was applying to subsidies OTHER than agricultural, and not a rebutal to you.

15

Also the Magnificent Tigerman and I have consistently argued for free trade. We have never supported barriers to “protect jobs at home.” So we are fighting for these kinds of things. Truth be told, the problem with US and EU is not tariffs but subsidies. Both have very low tariffs. In fact, most of the Third World has high tariffs on many things and this it has been argued has contributed to their relative poverty. BUT these vast sums spent on offering loans or preferential tax treatment to textile factories, etc. etc. must end NOW. Please also note that not only did Bush fail to save or bail out Enron, Worldcom, numerous dotcom failures but he has also refused to give a loan to save United Airlines. So much for being a big crony capitalist. He has his principles and those are the right ones. Sink or swim and never expect the taxpayer to bail you out.

Freddie

16

Oh heavens! :astonished: Who knows? Why don’t you ask your buddy plotzed? Maybe the 2 of you should get together and tell us all, hmmm? :raspberry:

17

Blueface, so you are still alive and kicking. As mentioned maestro, provide proof to your claim that plotzed and i are the same, otherwise shut the fuck up.

18

Where did Plotzed go? Is that really Rascal?

19

Fred, if i knew, i would send him round to BF, really dont know where that idiot got the idea form we were one and the same.

20

This one is for Fred’s gang of Five.

Just to let you know this Berkeley guy is still around to keep it real and keep you honest. Go Bears! Fuck Stanfurd! Fuck Big Federal Government.

[quote]20 things you have to believe to support Bush these
days

  1. Being a drug addict is a moral failing and a crime,
    unless you’re a conservative radio host. Then it’s an
    illness and you need our prayers for your recovery.
  2. The United States should get out of the United
    Nations, and our
    highest national priority is enforcing U.N.
    resolutions against Iraq.
  3. Government should relax regulation of Big Business
    and Big Money but crack down on individuals who use
    marijuana to relieve the pain of illness.
  4. “Standing Tall for America”; means firing your
    workers and moving their jobs to India.
  5. A woman can’t be trusted with decisions about her
    own body, but multinational corporations can make
    decisions affecting all mankind without regulation.
  6. Jesus loves you, and shares your hatred of
    homosexuals and Hillary Clinton.
  7. The best way to improve military morale is to
    praise the troops in speeches while slashing veterans’
    benefits and combat pay.
  8. Group sex and drug use are degenerate sins unless
    you someday run for governor of California as a
    Republican.
  9. If condoms are kept out of schools, adolescents
    won’t have sex.
  10. A good way to fight terrorism is to belittle our
    longtime allies, then demand their cooperation and
    money.
  11. HMOs and insurance companies have the interest of
    the public at heart.
  12. Providing health care to all Iraqis is sound
    policy. Providing
    health care to all Americans is socialism.
  13. Global warming and tobacco’s link to cancer are
    junk science, but creationism should be taught in
    schools.
  14. Saddam was a good guy when Reagan armed him, a bad
    guy when Bush’s daddy made war on him, a good guy when
    Cheney did business with him and a bad guy when Bush
    needed a “we can’t find Bin Laden” diversion.
  15. A president lying about an extramarital affair is
    an impeachable
    offense. A president lying to enlist support for a war
    in which
    thousands die is solid defense policy.
  16. Government should limit itself to the powers named
    in the
    Constitution, which include banning gay marriages and
    censoring
    the Internet.
  17. The public has a right to know about Hillary’s
    cattle trades, but
    George Bush’s driving record is none of our business.
  18. You support states’ rights, which means Attorney
    General John Ashcroft can tell states what local voter
    initiatives they have a
    right to adopt.
  19. What Bill Clinton did in the 1960s is of vital
    national interest,
    but what Bush did in the '80s is irrelevant.
  20. Trade with Cuba is wrong because the country is
    communist, but trade with China and Vietnam is vital
    to a spirit of international
    harmony.[/quote]