I note with some disgust that the neo-con US foreign policy apologists have remained SILENT on the US role in Sudan’s civil war. Where’s your (retracted expletive) answer? Or do you need more time or do you refuse to acknowledge your role in it? Happy to take the (dubious) credit for ending it and refuse to recognise that you started it. (retracted noun). Hypocrites.
:fume:
[quote=“fred smith”]Very well Broon Ale:…
you may be partially right in that we may have sold weapons to Sudan, but I want to find out more about the threat from Libya[/quote]
the squirming excuse begin…
[quote=“fred smith”]Very well Broon Ale:
I accept the challenge. I seriously doubt that the matter is as cut and dried as you say it is. That is like the generally accepted view that the US was responsible for overthrowing Allende in Chile and installing Pinochet. We will see.
Interesting discussion about arming countries. I fail to find any trace of your prodigious posting about the fact that France, Germany, Russia and others armed Iraq to the teeth, but I hear a lot from similarly weakminded Leftie protesters about the US “arming” Saddam and how he was “our man.” Hah!
Give me the weekend to find out more about your allegations. Who knows, you may be partially right in that we may have sold weapons to Sudan, but I want to find out more about the threat from Libya, but I seriously doubt that the US was arming Sudan because it wanted to see the government oppress its people and start this civil war.[/quote]
OK. You can have the weekend. But stick to the point. Efforts at obfuscating, as is your wont, will be ignored.
Now, now. Calm down.
Haven’t had time to research the issue properly. I’ve been involved in a covert and clandestine mission, recently. Taken some of my time.
But, even without researching, if we assume that your description of events is correct and accurate, then I still see no reason for the UN and or EU to sit on their collective asses and watch as this humanitarian catastrophy worsens.
And just to be clear, if your assessment of the facts is accurate, then Bush deserves credit for taking the lead, once again, and changing US policy for the better.
Will the UN and EU simply sit and pout? Or will they join in and do the right thing, for once?
I retract my expletives. Perhaps you could care to retract the epithet.
I retract my expletives. Perhaps you could care to retract the epithet.[/quote][/quote]
Fine, fine. Done. But I still see the expletive quite explicitly in your post, as well as the epithets, “scumbags” and “hypocrites”.
[quote=“The Magnificent Tigerman”]
Haven’t had time to research the issue properly. I’ve been involved in a covert and clandestine mission, recently. Taken some of my time.
But, even without researching, if we assume that your description of events is correct and accurate, then I still see no reason for the UN and or EU to sit on their collective asses and watch as this humanitarian catastrophy worsens.
And just to be clear, if your assessment of the facts is accurate, then Bush deserves credit for taking the lead, once again, and changing US policy for the better.
Will the UN and EU simply sit and pout? Or will they join in and do the right thing, for once?[/quote]
Rubbish. The removal of Bashir’s government from the A-list of “terrorist states” coincides neatly with the peace accords between himself and Garang’s SPLM/SPLA but this has little to do with an altruistic desire for peace and more to do with the potential for US oil companies to expediently exploit Southern Sudan’s large oil reserves and to re-instate the Sudan as a staging post for US clandestine activities in the Sahel as it was under Nimeiry. US companies might have a few problems taking over the refinery near Atbara though as it operated by the PRC who had fewer qualms than the Canadians about the oil business in Sudan. Claiming credit here is misplaced and displaying concern is deeply cynical.
I retract my expletives. Perhaps you could care to retract the epithet.[/quote][/quote]
Fine, fine. Done. But I still see the expletive quite explicitly in your post, as well as the epithets, “scumbags” and “hypocrites”.[/quote]
I retract “scumbag” and reserve for use later but I retain the right to use the word hypocrite.
Broon al-E
So… The UN and EU should do nothing… is that correct?
[quote=“BroonAle”]I retract “scumbag” and reserve for use later but I retain the right to use the word hypocrite.
Broon al-E[/quote]
What you have done is not a “retraction”.
This isn’t about UN / EU inactivity, which is incorrect but you cannot simply transfer blame in the way you do without recognising the HUGE role the US played in starting the civil war in the first place. Your embassy building in Khartoum is very big by any standards and built during Nimeiry’s time, I find it hard to believe that it was staffed by hundreds of AmCham people. 
"[color=blue]The U.N. and U.S. do not call the pogroms genocide[/color]
This isn’t about UN / EU inactivity, which is incorrect but you cannot simply transfer blame in the way you do without recognising the HUGE role the US played in starting the civil war in the first place. Your embassy building in Khartoum is very big by any standards and built during Nimeiry’s time, I find it hard to believe that it was staffed by hundreds of AmCham people. [/quote]
It seems that the only thing you are concerned about is who to blame. Never heard from you how to solve any problems… :s
From Foreign Policy in Focus…
This crisis radiates in concentric circles from the civil war in southern Sudan, which has sputtered for more than 30 of the past 40 years. Like all the former European colonies along the Sahel (the Sahara
But, I have neither denied US blame for the current situation nor attempted to transfer blame to the UN/EU for the current situation.
I am simply trying to understand why it is that the UN/EU are doing nothing NOW.
One more thing of contention I’d like to point out. Despite Europe not sending much foreign aid to Sudan, aid is being sent to other nations and regions. Fred seems to be under the impression that it is only the U.S. who is altruistic and that the Europeans are all penny pinching shylocks. This is nothing more than wholesale chicanery. Overall U.S. foreign aid is actually a pittance compared to it’s share of global wealth. The figures for Sudan may make it appear that the U.S. is being generous but that is only if you look at Sudan alone.
Breakdown of ODA by both raw figures and percentages. You can find the U.S. at the number 22 spot, behind France and Germany.
Impressive but wrong in several ways.
First of all the US spending dwarfs anything by anyone else. Double the NO. 2 Japan.
Second, this is government money and does not include private charities. These make up the vast bulk of American giving. I wish I had the statistic for this handy and can track it down if need be but American charities from the Gates Foundation to Soros Foundation etc etc. give BILLIONS more each year. Also, remember that Ted Turner gave US$1 billion to the UN a few years ago. Can you think of any similar efforts by European or Japanese companies or philanthropists? Bono? But while he leads the charity how much does he give? Perhaps he does but I am not aware.
So all these private donations are not counted in these statistics nor is the cost of American peacekeeping efforts. When you factor all of this in, I imagine that you would see the US contribution to the world would hit several hundred billion dollars not just the US$16 billion in direct governmental aid. Remember too that the US just gave Iraq US$18 billion and we are cancelling Iraqi debt.
hmmm I know that charitable giving is tax deductible, I didn’t know that the U.S. government could deduct private donations by individuals as part of their OECD obligation. Learn something new everyday.
Btw, don’t you hate George Soros and Ted Turner?
I don’t care what the OECD’s goals are for government spending. Look at what the US and its citizens actually spend and then put away your cute bar graphs trying to make it look like America chintzes out on its obligations.
Let’s not even get out the calculator for defense spending that saves poor nations billions and preserves the peace needed for economic development. Can anyone say East Asia? Eastern Europe? Latin America? Whatever happened to the arms race between Chile, Brazil and Argentina? Why did it end? Who can take the credit? Yupperoo. America.
Finally, what I think of George Soros and Ted Turner personally is irrelevant to the fact that they as Americans have given huge amounts to global charities.
The world certainly has changed. Prior the 9/11 American conservatives were irritated by the idea that they were the world’s police force. Now it seems neocons are revelling in their agenda to promote the American/capitalist order onto everything. I think someone was right, you guys are really closet Trotskyites.
edit: But of course Trotskyites turned terribly terribly evil! 
even more so than they already were anyway.