Gao bo an - You and I may have had our differences in the past but I am feeling you on this one. I remember when I was about seventeen I started to notice how masculine the women around me were becoming. I mean they started acting in ways that I would have considered obnoxious even from a man. That was a long time ago now and I have since lost any active interest in western women to be honest. When I do happen to meet them though I am usually pleasantly suprised. I will say that.
Still though we are left with deeper question - Why do “some” women have such a built in tendency to try and degrade men? The answer to that question will be a long time in coming I am afraid, but for practical purposes I think we could answer it with another one. Namely, “Why are there so many men willing to take it.” If we can find the answer to the second question, the first one will take care of itself.
Treating people like shit and humiliating them to get your way is by no means relegated to Western culture whether the perpetrator be male or female.
At first it occurs sporadically however it soon become a habit because it works so well. Humiliation is the greatest display of dominance you can have over someone.
Basically you can boot his/her ass to the curb or try and work it out, but old habits die hard.
Absolutely true everything you said Qrap (Do you mind if I call you Qrap? Or do you prefer Mr. Qrap?) but there is a specific quality to what gao bo an is talking about that distinguishes it somehow. I think it has something to do wth being a geneartion of men who were taught, as children, to show a certain deference to women, growing up to discover that the women around them possess very few of the qualities for which we were taught to show respect. Anyway something like that.
Spot on bob. You’ve hit the nail on the head.[/quote]
I put it this way:
Boys will be boys. BUT Girls will be boys and (sometimes) girls.[/quote]
Pleassssseeeeesss, there are plenty of women who can give the arguement that they were to show deference to men as a sign of respect ergo they would be respected as women. But as times have changed as they always do, that has happened either. Men are different from women, we do have different ways of communicating and process information. But when you get into the realm of how people are treated regardless of sex then you are dealing with behavior issues that stem from enviroment, etc.
women do not have a built in need to degrade men any more than men have a built in need to be physical abusers. Degradation, abuse of all forms, etc are [color=darkred]LEARNED [/color]behaviors.
The best case scenerio would be that you would find someone that brings the best out of you and compliment who you are as oppose having to use the justification of "i like xyz’ woman because they aren’t xyz’
I’m a guy, but I’ll answer this based on my experience.
The description you gave me describes my ex-girlfriend (American) quite accurately. No wonder we broke up. My wife is from Taiwan, and is most often not like that. I say “most often” because occasionally she lapses into a behavior pattern like that, but the next opportunity I have to talk about it in private I let her know how I felt and she’ll generally apologize for behaving like that. I find publicly humiliating one’s SO to be unacceptable behavior, and I would never intentionally do that to her.
That being said, I’ve encountered Taiwanese women who treat their men as you said, or men who say that their Taiwanese women treat them like that. I remember one Taiwanese woman in particular - the sister of one of my wife’s friends - who would tell us what a worthless person her Taiwanese husband was… IN HIS PRESENCE! But I must lay some of the blame on him… he just sat there and took it.
By the same token, I’ve encountered Taiwanese and American men who treat their wives like shit, including humiliating them publicly, so I know it’s not a “female” thing.
But it is the “female thing” that we are talking about here. It is a distinct phenomenon from other kinds of abusive behaviour because it seems to be, to some extent, sanctioned socially. I think someone mentioned earlier the way that popular entertainment so often portrays men as foolish, weak willed, emotionally dependant… And the impression we get from a lot of western women is that they think that anything that is degrading to men is somehow legitimate and a step forward. People can go on pretending that there is nothing to what we are saying here and western men can keep leaving in droves.
The ironic thing is that when western men arrive here they are in for a real wake up call if they have been somehow led to believe that Asian women are subserviant. They aren’t. And they seem to possess a bit of that same instinct to put men down. It just isn’t as strong generally.
Then, the obvious question is what is it about Western or say US society that learns its women this sort of behavior (as so many men are really stating/arguing/positing)?
There’s nothing inherently wrong with using a negative to explain a positive. In fact, it’s pretty important to know what you don’t like, in order to know and appreciate what it is that you like. It’s this introspective honesty that allows people to understand themselves. It is ok.
[quote=“bob”]
The ironic thing is that when western men arrive here they are in for a real wake up call if they have been somehow led to believe that Asian women are subserviant. They aren’t. And they seem to possess a bit of that same instinct to put men down. It just isn’t as strong generally.[/quote]
Yeah, Asian women subservient is a major misconception. The power thing with Asian women is a lot more subtle than in the West. In the West, it’s about the me, individual, hear me roar, I am woman. Asian women, don’t need that, see me, hear me roar, in your face kind of approach.
I would describe the power thing as a “sphere’s of influence” thing. People know their roles and the gender, society defines those roles which come with certain responsibilities. Everyone who knows anything is that when it comes to family and the home, the woman rules. The man is a figurehead. But the smart Asian woman lets the man be that figurehead and in the public, she defers to his position and stature (e.g. call it stroking his ego) and supports him in his natural (for Taiwan society) role. What happens behind the scenes though is negotiated and not always what is visible or apparent.
I think that with female equality in the last few decades, many females mistake equality with humiliation. They think to be equal with men, you have to put them down. But with time, I think these women will come to the realization themselves that being equal with men does not mean they need to put men down.
I suppose making plain your statement of political intentions
as a ‘feminist’ is more honest as to what you’re about, whether you actually put that political outlook into action is another thing.
Feminist discourse still doesn’t have as much influence in the public domain as in the West so women in Taiwan have to use irregular channels to gain power. ‘Subtlety’ strikes me as psychological manipulation and a real ‘snake in the grass’ approach to exerting influence over a man. I think that’s pretty screwed up to toy with someone’s affections lin that way.
What do you mean? We learned it because it became a socially learned and acceptable behavior as way to gain power. In America, power has always equated to degradation of some form.
YC wrote:
[quote]
There’s nothing inherently wrong with using a negative to explain a positive. In fact, it’s pretty important to know what you don’t like, in order to know and appreciate what it is that you like. It’s this introspective honesty that allows people to understand themselves. It is ok.[/quote][/quote]
Yes there is something wrong in using a negative to explain a postive. When this topic was started it was based upon an observation, yet the observation was rooted in biased or rather limited experiences. You guys didn’t like the thread too much on big cocks vs smaller ones, especially when Imaniou said that anything resembling an eraser is a deal breaker. One can state an opinion without doing at the expense of someone else.
Namahottie: I am not clear what your position on this subject is. From your last post, it seems like you recognize this as part of American social programming. You wrote:
[quote]What do you mean? We learned it because it became a socially learned and acceptable behavior as way to gain power. In America, power has always equated to degradation of some form.
[/quote]
By the way, as for my limited perceptions…yes, they are limited by own observations and experiences, as are everyone’s. Did you read Chris’ post? This crap HAPPENED TO HIM. I’m pretty sure I’m not imagining this stuff completely.
I created this thread because lots of men on this forum have written candid explanations of their relationships, both with Western and Taiwanese women. As someone pointed out already, there are positive and negatives all around. Still, there is a definite trend emerging both with Forumosans and (God forbid) Western men who don’t post here: more and more Western men are turning to Asia for lovers and brides. I want to know why. It fascinates me. And I think we may have struck a chord here as to one possible reason why.
But I want to say something about Western men looking for “subservient” women in Asia. I have never met anyone who ever had this misconception. The men I know who date women from Taiwan, China, and Japan studied the languages/histories/cultures before ever going there. They knew what to expect at least to a certain extent, and I certainly never heard anyone say, “Asian women are subservient”, or anything remotely like that. I’ve heard lots of people discussing this misconception, but never heard anyone espousing the notion. I’m not going to deny it exists, as I have no proof it doesn’t. But I think all the men here laugh at the idea. Where are people getting this from? Is there literature written on the “subservience” of Asian women? Do you know men who truly believe this? I wonder where this idea originates.
[quote=“gao_bo_han”]Namahottie: I am not clear what your position on this subject is. From your last post, it seems like you recognize this as part of American social programming. You wrote:
[/quote]
[quote]
By the way, as for my limited perceptions…yes, they are limited by own observations and experiences, as are everyone’s. Did you read Chris’ post? This crap HAPPENED TO HIM. I’m pretty sure I’m not imagining this stuff completely. [/quote]
Oh yea it’s apart of the American fabric for people to degrate each other, and now it’s enterntainment so it’s very much accepted. Yes i think your post had a limited perception. YOu didn’t just point out that you were looking to find out why western men are looking toward asia for partners. But you stated how western women are xxx to say this is why western men are doing such a thing.
I read Chris’s post, and that was a incident with him and his girlfriend. And we all know that what goes on in a relationship that is best known by THOSE who were in it.
If you like asian women then go for it by all means. But just to solely like them because you’ve had some bad encounters with women of your own race, well that’s not love that’s just avoiding something that needs to be healed. Hey as I said before , in real authentic love-race doesn’t exsist cause you’re to busy focusing on the aspects of the person who is makin you feel :lovestruck: gooooood.
You could ask 100 different men why they like Asian women and get 100 different responses. I hardly think you are on to any “new” enlightenment about why some guys like A or don’t like B.
Obviously disrespecting one’s partner shouldn’t happen in any healthy relationship. But, from this thread, it sounds like you and bob are just on another mission to rag on all the man hating feminazis in the West.
FYI: Most Western guys I meet are open to dating a woman of any race as long as she meets his standards. People who will only date Asian or would never date a Westerner are usually still bitter from a past relationship or…just a little bit odd.
It is a tool used in relationships. Because directness is not a preferred method of confrontation in Asian societies, the indirect or subtlety is used instead.
Yes it could be described this way. See some of the PXJ posts in the thread. Some of it pretty incredible reading.
[quote=“Gloria”]I think that’s pretty screwed up to toy with someone’s affections lin that way.[/quote] See PXJ posts… the theme is the manipulation that some of the PXJs use to “curb” their man so to speak.
