Theres no need to sugarcoat it, being an employee here generally sucks and is a perfectly good reason to leave the island, as many have before you, and many will after you!
Some people do well in the workplace but you are swimming against the tide. You will also be blocked from almost all civil service/government jobs, blocking many career paths here and in eligible for cushy pensions like local teachers or soldiers etc.
[quote=āHokwongweiā]That post is super negative, so let me ad a few positives here.
I have learned a lot living and working in Taiwan, especially about how to åäŗŗ (deal with interpersonal relationships) when put in ridiculous circumstances. Iāve made lots of lasting friendships and still very much like Taiwanese people and the broader culture at large, and I recognize that Iāve been handed opportunities that would not have been possible for someone with my (lack of) qualificiations back home. Also, I donāt have any complaints about base pay because cost-of-living is so low Iām saving more than most of my friends back home are. (Iām not going to speak so generously about wage growth potential, though!) Even though Iām reluctantly setting sail, I hope that I can accrue useful skills over the next few years and come back to put them to good use here. I recognize that even though itās left me disappointed repeatedly, itās not really Taiwan that has failed me; I simply canāt offer that much to this country, and so Iāll be back whenever I can offer more.[/quote]
Thank you very much for the accurate reply Hokwongwei. I share most of your feelings, both in positive and negative. On one hand I am grateful for this job opportunity, I am learning a lot while many of my peers back in Europe are unemployed or underemployed cutting cardboard for peanuts (in cities that are way more expensive than Taipei). The chance of getting a real job so quickly after my graduation was a real blessing and I am grateful for that. On the other hand, I canāt really see this job as more than just a stepping stone to get my career started and eventually land on something better, as this workplace is really too toxic for me to stick to it in the long run. Not to mention the aesthetic crimes against humanity I am required to produce in this architecture firm 
So yeah, I have mixed feelings about working in Taiwan as well!
Ths makes me feel a bit less lonely in my internal struggle about whether leaving the island or not!
OP, you might consider reneweing your contract at your current employer if given the option. I know itās not the best job in the world, but it beats unemployment, and you can continue to search for a new job while working there. Just my suggestion.
Rationally I know your suggestion is wise but even just the idea of renewing my current contract makes me feel sick in my stomach 
As others have said, trying to have a ānormalā career in Taiwan (working hard, getting raises and promotions, finding better jobs, and so on) is generally a waste of time here. That doesnāt mean you canāt have a successful career, but you will need to create it for yourself out of whole cloth.
I donāt know anything about your field so I can only offer general advice, but it would be:
[ul]
[li] Improve your Chinese. Get fluent in general conversation and topics related to your work.
[/li][li]Make friends and connections in your profession and your customer base. Actively network at shows, expos, Facebook groups, or whatever is available.
[/li][li] Make a name for yourself. Your job wonāt give you many opportunities to do this but there are sure to be things you can do on your own time ā do concept work and share it online, write a blog, give talks, contribute to magazines, do freelance work for your friends and connections.[/li][/ul]
Do this for long enough (ten years, say) and you will eventually reach some mysterious critical mass where work is always available and you can make good money. Until then, donāt quit your job unless you have something better lined up.
[quote=āBrendonā]As others have said, trying to have a ānormalā career in Taiwan (working hard, getting raises and promotions, finding better jobs, and so on) is generally a waste of time here. That doesnāt mean you canāt have a successful career, but you will need to create it for yourself out of whole cloth.
I donāt know anything about your field so I can only offer general advice, but it would be:
[ul]
[li] Improve your Chinese. Get fluent in general conversation and topics related to your work.
[/li][li]Make friends and connections in your profession and your customer base. Actively network at shows, expos, Facebook groups, or whatever is available.
[/li][li] Make a name for yourself. Your job wonāt give you many opportunities to do this but there are sure to be things you can do on your own time ā do concept work and share it online, write a blog, give talks, contribute to magazines, do freelance work for your friends and connections.[/li][/ul]
Do this for long enough (ten years, say) and you will eventually reach some mysterious critical mass where work is always available and you can make good money. Until then, donāt quit your job unless you have something better lined up.[/quote]
Thank you very much for the advice. However, I feel like these tips would work for someone that:
- has strong non work-related reasons to live in Taiwan (for example a Taiwanese SO)
- is planning to live in Taiwan long-term (in 5-10 year)
What about professionals that came just for a job planning to spend 2 or 3 years in taiwan? Do you still think it would make sense to stay and struggle to achieve some professional success?
Probably not unless you really like living in Taiwan. The only other reason to stay is if you want to learn Chinese. But this can be hard if you are working long hours. Taiwan is just not a great place to develop a career. As said earlier, opportunities can be created. And there are many other rewards to living in Taiwan. China by all accounts has many more opportunities. Hong Kong and Singapore are crawling with foreigners. I doubt they would be there if there were no jobs. Foreigners in Taiwan stay because they like it despite the poor career prospects.
[quote=āmarghiniā]
Thank you very much for the advice. However, I feel like these tips would work for someone that:
- has strong non work-related reasons to live in Taiwan (for example a Taiwanese SO)
- is planning to live in Taiwan long-term (in 5-10 year)
What about professionals that came just for a job planning to spend 2 or 3 years in Taiwan? Do you still think it would make sense to stay and struggle to achieve some professional success?[/quote]
My exit plan was to get a couple years of experience then head to a top 15 MBA program, and it worked. I start a 2-year program in the fall where 95% of grads will be employed by three months after graduation with a salary of around $105k USD plus yearly bonuses that typically add another 30k. I hope to work in consulting, where the salary is around $125k before bonus, typically $150-180k all-in. Pretty much every school was interested in hearing my story about working in Taiwan and I have gotten some great scholarship offers so far, hoping for a full scholarship program to get back to me in March.
Taiwan is not going to change any time soon it seems. Why not take advantage of the huge privileges you have to walk into a job that pays literally 4x as much as a solid Taiwanese salary? I have many classmates from my time studying in Taiwan who would kill to have the opportunities I have. No point in sticking around making shit money and wasting my talents/circumstances, far from home.
[quote=āmahkieā][quote=āmarghiniā]
Thank you very much for the advice. However, I feel like these tips would work for someone that:
- has strong non work-related reasons to live in Taiwan (for example a Taiwanese SO)
- is planning to live in Taiwan long-term (in 5-10 year)
What about professionals that came just for a job planning to spend 2 or 3 years in Taiwan? Do you still think it would make sense to stay and struggle to achieve some professional success?[/quote]
My exit plan was to get a couple years of experience then head to a top 15 MBA program, and it worked. I start a 2-year program in the fall where 95% of grads will be employed by three months after graduation with a salary of around $105k USD plus yearly bonuses that typically add another 30k. I hope to work in consulting, where the salary is around $125k before bonus, typically $150-180k all-in. Pretty much every school was interested in hearing my story about working in Taiwan and I have gotten some great scholarship offers so far, hoping for a full scholarship program to get back to me in March.
Taiwan is not going to change any time soon it seems. Why not take advantage of the huge privileges you have to walk into a job that pays literally 4x as much as a solid Taiwanese salary? I have many classmates from my time studying in Taiwan who would kill to have the opportunities I have. No point in sticking around making shit money and wasting my talents/circumstances, far from home.[/quote]
Very interesting experience mahkie. May I ask you what kind of study/ work experience you did in Taiwan? In what industry? Are you from the US?
I taught ESL for a couple years, then got a scholarship here to get my masters in finance. Didnāt finish the masters, but it helped make my undergrad GPA look better for MBA apps (MBA programs donāt care that much about grades that much, and donāt care that much about masters degrees). With an MBA it doesnt matter what you study undergrad, but I studied econ.
Midway through the masters, I started working at a software company and basically changed their whole way of doing business for the better. I am from the US and will be moving back. It seems like Taiwan to US MBA program is a great road to take, one guy on Forumosa a while back mentioned doing this same thing and he got into a leadership development program out of his MBA. Thereās also a famous blogger who did something like this and I canāt remember his name. He lives in Taiwan and travels overseas to do projects. He built educational software and sold it to Hess, then went to do his MBA back in the states.
My past experience mirrors most of what has been said. Working for a 1/3 or less for an equivalent position in America can be hard to stomach but my co-workers generally treated me as a part of their family, which helped me ignore the negatives.
But Iāve recently had to start looking for work and I am finding the job search far more challenging than in the past. Unprepared interviewers, interview requests for work I wouldnāt be qualified for (I had one large multi-national insist I interview for a senior Java programming position despite telling her that I am not real programmer and have no interest in Java), and general shock when they see what I consider a very modest past salary.
Iāve spent the past 5 years studying Chinese, 1/2 of which was full-time, and this ability to communicate has had little noticeable effect that I can see in finding work.
My goals are modest, I just want to work in a Chinese speaking environment, work my 10 hours, and receive a moderate salary. Perhaps at my age I am unemployable in Taiwan.
But then Iāve made many mistakes. My current business project has failed, I spent too many years freelancing, and Iāve never liked networking and avoid socialising.
This week, I almost booked a ticket to China, as everyone I talk to there make it sound so encouraging. But I have a family, and my wife sat me down and asked that I broaden my search to include teaching. In the 16 years Iāve lived here I have never taught but it might be a good challenge until at least we have the right timing to move the whole family at once off of Taiwan.
[quote=ākelakeā]
This week, I almost booked a ticket to China, as everyone I talk to there make it sound so encouraging. But I have a family, and my wife sat me down and asked that I broaden my search to include teaching. In the 16 years Iāve lived here I have never taught but it might be a good challenge until at least we have the right timing to move the whole family at once off of Taiwan.[/quote]
According to my experience China is getting esponentially less and less welcoming towards foreigners. At this point I think you need to have a strong professional profile in order to get a decent job in China. Not to mention you have to deal with all that pollution and other challenging aspects of living in a developing country. Just my two cents!
Wowā¦ looks bleak. Iām wondering how much the reviewerās law of the Internet applies hereā¦
āWhen it comes to reviews on the Internet, everything is either the best or the worstā
From my experience, working for traditional/local companies is a bit uphill for foreigners here unless, as some other posters mentioned, you have niche skillset / domain knowledge. In saying that, Taiwan is still particularly good for starting a business as the cost of prototyping, easy access to manufacturers and suppliers, and close proximity to China and Japan makes development of goods that much easier than in comparison to AU.
Have also spent time doing remote work from TPE, which I found quite enjoyable. Internet connection is fairly decent for Hangouts (though deployment of 4G leaves a bit to desire). There are a couple coworking spaces I came across that are open from 9am and are fairly cheap (e.g. one next to Shi-da). Definitely recommend this route vs. competing with students for cafe/library power points.
Well this thread has been quite a depressing read. Iāve also read about mainland China getting less and less welcoming towards foreigners, but the salaries are quite a lot better than in Taiwan. Iāve really wondered where does this leave me as Iāve really wanted to work in the Chinese language environment, having studied the language and all that.
I am also going to do an exchange year in NTU or Peking University next year, mainly focusing on the language studies. Iāve visited both mainland and Taiwan, and honestly I think the āsocial environmentā in Taiwan is so far ahead of mainland China, like mainland has come a long way but the difference is still huge even today. Also things like the climate and food are pretty good compared to where I live in now(Scandinavia)
When I was choosing whether to study Japanese or Chinese, I kind of chose based on the facts that the need for Chinese speakers is greater, the cultural interest and the quite straightforward grammar. When reading all the negative news coming mainly from Taiwan and China, in some way it makes me regret my choice. But on the other hand, I think the Japanese society largely suffers from many of the same problems(long working hours, not so welcoming to foreigners). Luckily I still have some years to think what to do, computer science is my major by the way. I donāt really consider staying here in Finland an option in the long term. Though the notion of having to work with really low salary doesnāt really excite that much either. Even though the general standard of life is really high here, among the highest in the world I think, some things like the culture of overusing alcohol, very cold weather most of the year and generally uninteresting culture. Surprisingly the infrastructure in Asia seems to be a lot more developed than here with all the high speed trains and extremely frequent public transport routes. These are just some of my thoughts and perspectives.
Samppaa: I suspect if you come to study for a year in Taipei, thereās a good chance you will have a nice time. (Though do keep your expectations very low regarding the quality of accommodation available.)
As the thread title notes, the generally depressing vibe you are sensing here is related to Taiwanās work culture. There are some points in this culture that are structurally discriminatory to non-citizens (including parts of the tax system and, for some of us, the pension system; and as you might imagine, those working as blue collar and domestic labour often deal with terrible conditions). But I would venture to say that many toxic parts of the work culture (long hours, low pay, chaotic management, etc) are equally damaging to Taiwanese. Itās small consolation to know that they are often treated badly too.
Guy
I remember having read that the low salary problem dates back to the time when government decided to open more universities. This lead to a situation that almost everyone who applied got into a university which then lead to a huge drop in the value of university degrees because basically everyone could get one.
[quote=āSamppaaā]Well this thread has been quite a depressing read. Iāve also read about mainland China getting less and less welcoming towards foreigners, but the salaries are quite a lot better than in Taiwan. Iāve really wondered where does this leave me as Iāve really wanted to work in the Chinese language environment, having studied the language and all that.
I am also going to do an exchange year in NTU or Peking University next year, mainly focusing on the language studies. Iāve visited both mainland and Taiwan, and honestly I think the āsocial environmentā in Taiwan is so far ahead of mainland China, like mainland has come a long way but the difference is still huge even today. Also things like the climate and food are pretty good compared to where I live in now(Scandinavia)
When I was choosing whether to study Japanese or Chinese, I kind of chose based on the facts that the need for Chinese speakers is greater, the cultural interest and the quite straightforward grammar. When reading all the negative news coming mainly from Taiwan and China, in some way it makes me regret my choice. But on the other hand, I think the Japanese society largely suffers from many of the same problems(long working hours, not so welcoming to foreigners). Luckily I still have some years to think what to do, computer science is my major by the way. I donāt really consider staying here in Finland an option in the long term. Though the notion of having to work with really low salary doesnāt really excite that much either. Even though the general standard of life is really high here, among the highest in the world I think, some things like the culture of overusing alcohol, very cold weather most of the year and generally uninteresting culture. Surprisingly the infrastructure in Asia seems to be a lot more developed than here with all the high speed trains and extremely frequent public transport routes. These are just some of my thoughts and perspectives.[/quote]
Exchange students to NTU almost unanimously said that they enjoyed their time here greatly, probably because the worst parts about this place donāt really affect college students in any sense, at least not within six months or a year.
Btw this thread is such a great read. Iām gonna quote your posts to elaborate the HORRENDOUS working environment here when someone brings that up.
I havenāt posted in a while. Started consulting in my industry as well as teaching full time. Most of the clients I consult for are in the USA, which letās me teach a full day, and then do some work for them when I get home. It involves the odd trip to China on their behalf, but am extra few thousand US dollars goes a long way in Taiwan, which is the main plus. They key is to develop a few sources of income. At the end of the day itās what you make of it. The key is to get your APRC, if you are planning to stay for more than a few years, and with the new process for getting one, itās piss easy.