Would Things Change for 'Johnny Adogah' if China Took TW?

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
41

[quote=“BigJohn”][quote=“sandman”]In the follow-the-money culture that rules ALL on the two sides of the strait, I simply cannot comprehend how anyone could possibly think things would change that much. Its almost as if some you have the weird idea that the fuckwads ruling this side are somehow different to the fuckwads ruling over there. Face it. They’re the SAME people. They want MONEY. Full stop.
.[/quote]

That’s not even close to being true. This is a much saner (much less insane) society than China’s. The people here have a respect for culture that didn’t get beaten out of them during the GPCR, and democratic values have kind-of caught on here. Plus, the attitude towards foreigners is somewhat different. Sandman, you are ranting dangerously![/quote]
Tee hee! You’re FUNNY, John! A truly funny guy. Misguided, but FUNNY! :laughing: But that’s cool. You just believe what you want and I will too, and one day, one of us will be proved right.
And it will be MEEEEEEE! :laughing:

42

[quote=“Mawvellous”]
Are you talking about dialects of Chinese that are spoken by a majority of the people, or languages other than Chinese spoken by minorities?

[quote]
I’m talking about both dialects of Chinese that are not Putonghua and also languages that are spoken by non-Han minorities.

[quote=“Mawvellous”]
I wonder how many of the above have come true in Hong Kong? Your usual mixture of truths, half-truths, hysteria, and borderline racism.
[/quote][/quote][/quote]
Hong Kong had a strong set of laws in place before it was absorbed and a population that is largely law-abiding. Hong Kong already had a broad-based democracy movement with support across most of society. None of those conditions exist in Taiwan. HK’s laws are going to take a while to roll back. I predict that given Taiwan’s diabolically poor laws and the contempt for the law that many Taiwanese show, their Taiwanese will be eroded much faster than HK’s are. I lived in HK back in the 80’s and still have many friends there. I know what is going on. I lived in China for a few years so I have heard from the horse’s mouth what they have planned for Taiwan if they get their hands on it, I’m far from happy with that, and if it makes me sound borderline racist then so be it.

I don’t particularly like you or any of your melodramatic passive-aggressive dribble either, but I don’t whine about it or call you names. I just ignore what you write unless you reply to my posts directly. You could learn from that.

43

[quote=“sandman”][quote=“BigJohn”][quote=“sandman”]In the follow-the-money culture that rules ALL on the two sides of the strait, I simply cannot comprehend how anyone could possibly think things would change that much. Its almost as if some you have the weird idea that the fuckwads ruling this side are somehow different to the fuckwads ruling over there. Face it. They’re the SAME people. They want MONEY. Full stop.
.[/quote]

That’s not even close to being true. This is a much saner (much less insane) society than China’s. The people here have a respect for culture that didn’t get beaten out of them during the GPCR, and democratic values have kind-of caught on here. Plus, the attitude towards foreigners is somewhat different. Sandman, you are ranting dangerously![/quote]
Tee hee! You’re FUNNY, John! A truly funny guy. Misguided, but FUNNY! :laughing: But that’s cool. You just believe what you want and I will too, and one day, one of us will be proved right.
And it will be MEEEEEEE! :laughing:[/quote]

Gotta agree with the Sandfella here. When I go to China for work I don’t see any of my friends with the foot of the CCP on their neck, if anything opportunity and prosperity is growing by leaps and bounds compared to Taiwan. I don’t see how SAR status changes that…it certainly hasn’t affected anyone in HK to the degree that people have been scaremongering in this thread.

44

So high level gov’t officials were kind enough to inform you of their post-takeover strategy in what is one of the hottest flashpoints in the world.

That is an inside scoop right there. This kind of info could land you an anchor job at any top news outlet.

45

[quote=“sandman”]In the follow-the-money culture that rules ALL on the two sides of the strait, I simply cannot comprehend how anyone could possibly think things would change that much. Its almost as if some you have the weird idea that the fuckwads ruling this side are somehow different to the fuckwads ruling over there. Face it. They’re the SAME people. They want MONEY. Full stop.
Sure, some poor people will get right well fucked in the process. None of the people posting here will be in that category, though, or even close.[/quote]
For Once I agree with you. completely.

46

[quote=“Deuce Dropper”][quote=“sandman”][quote=“BigJohn”][quote=“sandman”]In the follow-the-money culture that rules ALL on the two sides of the strait, I simply cannot comprehend how anyone could possibly think things would change that much. Its almost as if some you have the weird idea that the fuckwads ruling this side are somehow different to the fuckwads ruling over there. Face it. They’re the SAME people. They want MONEY. Full stop.
.[/quote]

That’s not even close to being true. This is a much saner (much less insane) society than China’s. The people here have a respect for culture that didn’t get beaten out of them during the GPCR, and democratic values have kind-of caught on here. Plus, the attitude towards foreigners is somewhat different. Sandman, you are ranting dangerously![/quote]
Tee hee! You’re FUNNY, John! A truly funny guy. Misguided, but FUNNY! :laughing: But that’s cool. You just believe what you want and I will too, and one day, one of us will be proved right.
And it will be MEEEEEEE! :laughing:[/quote]

Gotta agree with the Sandfella here. When I go to China for work I don’t see any of my friends with the foot of the CCP on their neck, if anything opportunity and prosperity is growing by leaps and bounds compared to Taiwan. I don’t see how SAR status changes that…it certainly hasn’t affected anyone in HK to the degree that people have been scaremongering in this thread.[/quote]

I never said that things would or wouldn’t change here if it became an SAR. I said that there is a difference between the people in the PRC and those in the ROC. Are you disagreeing with this?

47

[quote=“BigJohn”][quote=“Deuce Dropper”][quote=“sandman”][quote=“BigJohn”][quote=“sandman”]In the follow-the-money culture that rules ALL on the two sides of the strait, I simply cannot comprehend how anyone could possibly think things would change that much. Its almost as if some you have the weird idea that the fuckwads ruling this side are somehow different to the fuckwads ruling over there. Face it. They’re the SAME people. They want MONEY. Full stop.
.[/quote]

That’s not even close to being true. This is a much saner (much less insane) society than China’s. The people here have a respect for culture that didn’t get beaten out of them during the GPCR, and democratic values have kind-of caught on here. Plus, the attitude towards foreigners is somewhat different. Sandman, you are ranting dangerously![/quote]
Tee hee! You’re FUNNY, John! A truly funny guy. Misguided, but FUNNY! :laughing: But that’s cool. You just believe what you want and I will too, and one day, one of us will be proved right.
And it will be MEEEEEEE! :laughing:[/quote]

Gotta agree with the Sandfella here. When I go to China for work I don’t see any of my friends with the foot of the CCP on their neck, if anything opportunity and prosperity is growing by leaps and bounds compared to Taiwan. I don’t see how SAR status changes that…it certainly hasn’t affected anyone in HK to the degree that people have been scaremongering in this thread.[/quote]

I never said that things would or wouldn’t change here if it became an SAR. I said that there is a difference between the people in the PRC and those in the ROC. Are you disagreeing with this?[/quote]
Yes. The gubmint over there are venal corrupt fools. As is the one over here. You’re very welcome to believe otherwise if you like – YOU FOOL!!! :roflmao:
As for the people, they’re also the exact same, except with a few years of development difference. If you believe otherwise, then… you believe otherwise. Not me, though.

48

[quote=“redwagon”]
Hong Kong had a strong set of laws in place before it was absorbed and a population that is largely law-abiding. Hong Kong already had a broad-based democracy movement with support across most of society. None of those conditions exist in Taiwan. HK’s laws are going to take a while to roll back. I predict that given Taiwan’s diabolically poor laws and the contempt for the law that many Taiwanese show, their Taiwanese will be eroded much faster than HK’s are. I lived in HK back in the 80’s and still have many friends there. I know what is going on. I lived in China for a few years so I have heard from the horse’s mouth what they have planned for Taiwan if they get their hands on it, I’m far from happy with that, and if it makes me sound borderline racist then so be it.

I don’t particularly like you or any of your melodramatic passive-aggressive dribble either, but I don’t whine about it or call you names. I just ignore what you write unless you reply to my posts directly. You could learn from that.[/quote]

I disagree with pretty much everything you say.
Hong Kong was in a far weaker position before the handover than Taiwan is now. Unlike Taiwan, it had no independence movement to speak of. Everyone basically accepted that the “handover” back to China was inevitable. It may have had a democracy movement, but it was weak. Unlike Taiwan now, at the time of the handover Hong Kong was not a democracy. Hong Kong’s political elite was dominated by foreigners and locals co-opted into the colonial power structure. Its business elite had a symbiotic relationship with Beijing. Hong Kong neither had a military, nor the support of the United States.

And who in China told you about Beijing’s plans for Taiwan once they get their hands on it?

49

Too bad. I already have a job, and I’m too ugly to work in the entertainment industry.

You know, the CCP is in a crappy situation. On the one hand they are trying not to spook the citizens of Taiwan into open panic or revolt against closer ties. On the other hand they have to convince their own citizens that Taiwan will be dealt with swiftly and properly. In performing the latter, they necessarily have to let slip some plans. Some of those come through the media, though that stuff never seems to make it to the translators’ desk. Try reading 中央日報 sometime, KMT HQ probably has a few copies they can lend you. The reports from politiburo central standing committee meetings etc. can be quite revealing if you’re willing to pore through text that in the most part is mind-numbingly boring. I don’t think I’ve listed any particular effect or strategy that isn’t in play in any of the provinces of China, or that it’s citizens have to suffer through holding PRC passports. I have not gotten any impression at all that the CCP are preparing to treat Taiwan especially graciously after the deals are signed. Not in the slightest. Anyone who believes China’s soothing noises toward Taiwan need only look to the erosion of legal independence, free speech and press freedom in Hong Kong, far short of the 50 years + 50 years Deng promised with an ounce of skepticism, to know what will actually happen.
I know it’s easier to go along pretending it will all work okay in the end. That’s what Taiwan has been doing since the end of the war. It doesn’t mean it will be okay however.

50

[quote=“Mawvellous”]
Hong Kong was in a far weaker position before the handover than Taiwan is now. Unlike Taiwan, it had no independence movement to speak of. Everyone basically accepted that the “handover” back to China was inevitable. It may have had a democracy movement, but it was weak. Unlike Taiwan now, at the time of the handover Hong Kong was not a democracy. Hong Kong’s political elite was dominated by foreigners and locals co-opted into the colonial power structure. Its business elite had a symbiotic relationship with Beijing. Hong Kong neither had a military, nor the support of the United States.[/quote]
A large chunk of Taiwan’s population have either decided a handover is inevitable, or that it’s not worth struggling for.

If you think what Taiwan enjoys now is a functioning democracy then you are optimistic at best. KMT has been ramming whatever legislation it likes through the LY for years now, functions like a one-party state in it’s relationship with China, and denies or obstructs every referendum it isn’t sure it can win.

Taiwan’s political elite is dominated by foreigners (Ma Yingjiou, Lien Chan, James Soong et al) and locals co-opted into the (KMT) colonial power structure (that’s been in place since the Americans somewhat foolishly handed them defacto control of the island). It’s (Taiwan’s) business elite has a symbiotic (and far too trusting) relationship with Beijing.

Taiwan’s military is a joke that no-one is laughing at and the support of the United States is even on legal grounds extremely shaky, were you to read the TRA carefully. The USA clearly views Taiwan as a mere political football which it thinks it can use to play for advantages from China. Trouble is that America’s business elites are also in bed with Chinese partners and there will be no support for a military defense of Taiwan while that relationship is still hot. The football game is in extra time already.

You’d be surprised at who I have had dinner with while in China and the sort of things they say about Taiwan when the booze flows. If that had happened on one random occasion I wouldn’t think much of it, but the same messages and hints were repeated to me many times by people who thought I saw things their way.

51

The KMT has got a dominant position in the Legislative Yuan because Chen Shui-bian foolishly agreed to a halving of the number of seats and reform in the voting system that left the DPP in a seriously disadvantageous position. But the most important source of power in Taiwan is the presidency which is definitely not out of the reach of the opposition.

The mainlander elite have gradually weakened over the years. The KMT relies on local factions to get anything done. Important power brokers like Wang Jin-ping are Taiwanese. Soong is now pretty much irrelevant. Lien is also definitely on the wane. Su Chi was forced out.
I don’t think the KMT was ever a “colonial” regime either (at least after 1949). You can’t run a place as a colony if you have no colonial metropolis.

American support is still very significant. The TRA is ambiguous–deliberately. But it still provides a mechanism for the US to intervene if necessary, and to supply arms to Taiwan.

There won’t be an invasion. At the moment, the US is maintaining the balance across the Strait.

Um…likely to be bravado after a couple of drinks. And did any of these people seriously have any influence in the PRC’s Taiwan policy?

52

I don’t think huge amounts would change at all for foreigners here. The example of HK is pretty obvious. As it stands Taiwan and China are integrating their economies rapidly. The best situation we can hope for is some type of EU type agreement which will satisfy both sides for now.
You can work here or there without any major restrictions. Politically foreigners don’t have many rights here, not allowed volunteer or take part in political protests. Self censorship would become more common though, depending on who was listening.
The DPP had their chance (and still do) to take back the parliament. But they need to respect the minorities views to get their votes. When they played the race card they got about the same Minnan peoples votes but lost almost every Hakka and Waishengren vote in the country. CSB used to love going up on the podium and speaking Taiwanese for 20 minutes non-stop, railing on about this and that, pity 20% or so of the population didn’t have a clue what he was saying. That was a dumb move…

53

[quote=“Mawvellous”]
The KMT has got a dominant position in the Legislative Yuan because Chen Shui-bian foolishly agreed to a halving of the number of seats and reform in the voting system that left the DPP in a seriously disadvantageous position. But the most important source of power in Taiwan is the presidency which is definitely not out of the reach of the opposition.[/quote]
Perhaps that was foolish in terms of DPP’s ability to control the LY, but I believe it was a good move for the country as a whole. As we saw with CSB, having the presidency but a weak minority position in the LY gets you nowhere, especially if the opposition won’t deal.

Yes they are obviously unelectable but that doesn’t mean they are not pulling the strings. Those are the guys who are pushing the annexation agenda behind the scenes while Ma takes the flak. Those are the guys who are going to reap the benefit of that annexation. Funny how the old fart who lives in my community has been officially retired from politics for 15 years and yet Ma comes to visit him twice a year. These old thieves still wield a lot of influence. Don’t be fooled by their scarce appearances in the media.

[quote]
American support is still very significant. The TRA is ambiguous–deliberately. But it still provides a mechanism for the US to intervene if necessary, and to supply arms to Taiwan.
[/quote]… or not, as may be their choice. America has no obligation to defend Taiwan if it doesn’t feel like it, and at this stage of the game I doubt anyone could convince Congress to put up a defense against China when it’s members have such important business interests there.

:roflmao: There won’t be an invasion. At the moment, the Chinese are biding their time and waiting for Matong to give them what they want without a fight. If he fails there will be another plan, but they are pretty confident this one will work. I heard several officials say Ma is so stupid they can hardly believe their luck. The Americans (State at least) are hoping it goes that way and there aren’t any embarrassing pleas from Taiwanese democracy supporters for help all over CNN when it goes down that would make them look bad for not stepping in.

[quote]
Um…likely to be bravado after a couple of drinks. And did any of these people seriously have any influence in the PRC’s Taiwan policy?[/quote]
So suddenly you can read bravado into a situation you weren’t involved and don’t know any of the players involved. My my. How about a career move into clairvoyancy?
Influence? Most likely not, and it doesn’t matter. As everyone over the age of five knows, Chinese government is a top-down culture. The easy part to figure out about interactions with Chinese officials is that they are unlikely to tell you anything regarding politics and outside of the business discussion itself which is not party policy, officially or unofficially. They expect that you know what their official positions are and try to impress you with tidbits of unofficial policy… ‘look how much closer to the center than you are…’ They do not suddenly spring personal beliefs on you that go against policy from above.
Where they differ is just in their business interests. When officials in different provinces and in different levels / areas of government all tell you the same things on specific subjects outside of the general business situation, you know you are hearing central policy.

In conversation with non-members / officials you find maybe one in a hundred or so that thinks the Taiwanese should be allowed to decide their own future, or can understand why they might want to go their own way. The rest are full of hope that Taiwan will be peacefully subjugated as if it will bring them great personal benefit, the sun will shine and the birds will sing etc. If you mention that maybe the Taiwanese themselves don’t want that, the conversation turns quickly to talk of bloodshed. The average citizen would rather see the Taiwanese dead than free, if annexation were not possible. I don’t believe they come up with these ideas by themselves, or without encouragement from above.

54

To sandman and anyone else who thinks the differences between Chinese civil society and taiwanese are superficial.

After the lifting of martial law and the end of the KMT’s corporatalist social organization there was an explosion of civil groups. Ciji is a prime example. By 2000 they were the largest formal organization in Taiwan and now has 5 million members worldwide, almost all Chinese or overseas taiwanese.

There are tens of thousands of civil groups in taiwan all trying to make this a better place and all able to operate solely because of the freedoms they enjoy here since the late 80s. Start rolling back those freedoms and you will roll us back to a very very different society.

As red has suggested, things liek cueing in line, everyday civiliities, trust between neighbours and friends, not cheating every customer who walks near you, friendliness to strangers, animal welfare, environmental awareness, are all positive gains that taiwanese civil society has made and are subject to erosion as they are anywhere under the right (or wrong) conditions.

I suggest you visit China and talk, as I have, with people trying to form NGOs, environmental groups, and so on. It ain’t easy when the government makes it illegal and/or suspect. Those who have been to taiwan understand the difference. With freedom China would be a lot better place as the latent potential of the people would be unleashed.

Deuce dropper, maybe your friends have not personally had the boot on the neck, but so what? I bet no one in your family was ever lynched for being the wrong color either.

Seriously, it would take you about 5 minutes in China to find someone who has been unfairly affected by government takeover of land, to give one glaring example.

Back to Sandman: don’t confuse or conflate the government here with what the people have achieved in the past generation. Taiwan has achieved a level of civility that no chinese soicety has ever seen. It has because the people have been free to do so and the price of joining a formal or informal group is simply consent.

Taiwan is what China should aspire to be, not the other fuckign way round as the clowns runnign this place currently have in mind.

55

Except that the vast majority of primary schools in Tibet teach in Tibetan. Go into rural Tibet and Chinese is hardly spoken.[/quote]

Go to rural Tibet and see where the Tibetans who have money are sending their kids to school: Sichuan so they can become fluent in Chinese. I know Tibetans who personally despise Chinese and yet know what they have to do for their kids.

Schools do teach Tibetan but it isn’t the language of the media or politics even within Tibet. Nor is it the language of business outside of really remote markets. I’ve travelled all over the Tibetan world and you can get by with Mandarin as anyone involved in business can speak it.

56

You wouldn’t be able to mock the government on Forumosa.com anymore, especially with sensitive topics like Tiananmen, the Beijing Olyympics, Falun Gong, TIbet, etc… I still remember the stern warnings that thebeijinger.com (Beijing’s answer to Forumosa) had up around the time of the Olympics reminding everyone not to push the envelope.

57

Well that’s why the KMT has such an electoral advantage now. Surprised you think that’s a “good” thing based on what you said earlier.
Still the president can still do quite a lot without legislative support. The reforms under Lee Teng-hui made the presidency very powerful.

Even if they were “pushing an annexation agenda behind the scenes” (which there is no actual evidence for), it is still doubtful that would be successful in their goal. Even allowing mainland students or tourists into Taiwan caused a huge raucous. Imagine what would happen if they tried to push reunification.
Ma has ruled out reunification during his time in office. Even after that, the KMT is committed to a referendum. I can’t see it happening unless the Taiwanese people become convinced of the benefits, which right now seems very unlikely.

Yes that is the ambiguity of the American position. Still it has successfully maintained the “status-quo” for the last 60 years.

No, Ma has already promised he won’t do that. I am sure he would not have made that promise if he had other hidden intentions. He has struggled to even get mainland students allowed into Taiwan. Eventually the law was passed but with major compromises. Imagine suddenly raising the white flag and agreeing to reunification. Right now it is inconceivable.

[quote]
So suddenly you can read bravado into a situation you weren’t involved and don’t know any of the players involved. My my. How about a career move into clairvoyancy?
Influence? Most likely not, and it doesn’t matter. As everyone over the age of five knows, Chinese government is a top-down culture. The easy part to figure out about interactions with Chinese officials is that they are unlikely to tell you anything regarding politics and outside of the business discussion itself which is not party policy, officially or unofficially. They expect that you know what their official positions are and try to impress you with tidbits of unofficial policy… ‘look how much closer to the center than you are…’ They do not suddenly spring personal beliefs on you that go against policy from above.
Where they differ is just in their business interests. When officials in different provinces and in different levels / areas of government all tell you the same things on specific subjects outside of the general business situation, you know you are hearing central policy.

In conversation with non-members / officials you find maybe one in a hundred or so that thinks the Taiwanese should be allowed to decide their own future, or can understand why they might want to go their own way. The rest are full of hope that Taiwan will be peacefully subjugated as if it will bring them great personal benefit, the sun will shine and the birds will sing etc. If you mention that maybe the Taiwanese themselves don’t want that, the conversation turns quickly to talk of bloodshed. The average citizen would rather see the Taiwanese dead than free, if annexation were not possible. I don’t believe they come up with these ideas by themselves, or without encouragement from above[/quote]

So the minor officials you met didn’t tell you anything? And the normal people you met regaled you with the official line that Taiwan is a part of China that must be liberated? Not very insightful…

58

Would they even let a Forumosa operate?

59

[quote=“Mucha Man”]Go to rural Tibet and see where the Tibetans who have money are sending their kids to school: Sichuan so they can become fluent in Chinese. I know Tibetans who personally despise Chinese and yet know what they have to do for their kids.

Schools do teach Tibetan but it isn’t the language of the media or politics even within Tibet. Nor is it the language of business outside of really remote markets. I’ve travelled all over the Tibetan world and you can get by with Mandarin as anyone involved in business can speak it.
[/quote]

I was just in Malaysia. English is clearly the language of business there. Parents want their kids educated in English, not Malay. You can get by in English easily because everyone in business speak it.

This kind of thing happens everywhere regardless of government policy. Chinese is more economically useful than Tibetan. English is more economically useful than Malay. Still in family or informal settings, people will continue to use the mother tongue.

60

[quote=“Mucha Man”]To sandman and anyone else who thinks the differences between Chinese civil society and taiwanese are superficial.

After the lifting of martial law and the end of the KMT’s corporatalist social organization there was an explosion of civil groups. Ciji is a prime example. By 2000 they were the largest formal organization in Taiwan and now has 5 million members worldwide, almost all Chinese or overseas taiwanese.

There are tens of thousands of civil groups in taiwan all trying to make this a better place and all able to operate solely because of the freedoms they enjoy here since the late 80s. Start rolling back those freedoms and you will roll us back to a very very different society.

As red has suggested, things liek cueing in line, everyday civiliities, trust between neighbours and friends, not cheating every customer who walks near you, friendliness to strangers, animal welfare, environmental awareness, are all positive gains that taiwanese civil society has made and are subject to erosion as they are anywhere under the right (or wrong) conditions.

I suggest you visit China and talk, as I have, with people trying to form NGOs, environmental groups, and so on. It ain’t easy when the government makes it illegal and/or suspect. Those who have been to Taiwan understand the difference. With freedom China would be a lot better place as the latent potential of the people would be unleashed.

Deuce dropper, maybe your friends have not personally had the boot on the neck, but so what? I bet no one in your family was ever lynched for being the wrong color either.

Seriously, it would take you about 5 minutes in China to find someone who has been unfairly affected by government takeover of land, to give one glaring example.

Back to Sandman: don’t confuse or conflate the government here with what the people have achieved in the past generation. Taiwan has achieved a level of civility that no Chinese soicety has ever seen. It has because the people have been free to do so and the price of joining a formal or informal group is simply consent.

Taiwan is what China should aspire to be, not the other fuckign way round as the clowns runnign this place currently have in mind.[/quote]

You are right. But if there was ever reunification, Taiwan would end up more like HK than the mainland.