I’m located in Tianjin, China, but this posting will be of interest and relevance to some of you working in Taiwan.
I
Hand in the back…
What do you want again???
I could never be a part of this – I’d have to drop my prices far too much.
This is weird…
A pyramid writer pimping scheme?
Seriously, can we get some more information without PMing you? I never PM strangers, Mama said so.
Human nature is so predictable. I expected these responses as I am just, if not more, cynical than you.
It will be to share knowledge specifically within China & Taiwan. A group of people communicating via email at first. Perhaps some might want to meet up, but I’m really looking to establish hard facts as opposed to chin-wagging. Emails will be limited to pertinent info, otherwise if we get too many of them, we’ll just forget the message, stop reading them or view them as spam.
It won’t be a workshop where we discuss romantic fiction or how to write a bestseller.
It won’t be a website - we already have this one and there are plenty of others out there.
It could be argued that the info could be posted on a website, but there are so many different ones, a warning can get lost in cyberspace. By sending out a short email, it reaches your inbox. The info comes to you.
I have already got some people interested. One dissenting voice did email me, calling it a pie in the sky, but I’m attempting to convince him, as he’s got a lot of savoir-faire when it comes to China. He took my points and was a very reasonable person.
Some young foreigners fresh off the plane, have got a lot to learn, and sometimes it’s their weaknesses which will impact on us. How many people know their financial worth, or how to negotiate, or the tricks of the trade? I’ve still got a lot to learn myself. If we inform each other of the pitfalls, then it ultimately improves this entire profession’s bargaining power.
Look at it from a pragmatic point of view; if we inform everybody of a disreputable company/individual, then they will receive bad publicity. We know to approach them with caution, or not at all. The choice is down to the individual on how to use the shared information.
This team is also not just limited to one city. I live in Tianjin and in the age of telecommuting I can and do work anywhere. I want all writers and editors across China & Taiwan to contribute.
To get the ball rolling, I sent out (in an email) some warnings and cautions to the first batch of people who contacted me. I issued a caution about an individual on the That’s Beijing website asking for writing tests. He’s back again after a one month break, and already two people have told me they’ve been hoodwinked by him. One tried to ring him and the number was fake. It’s this kind of simple sharing, which will prevent others getting burned.
We’re not just limited to the That’s Beijing website, but I have also noted two other ladies advertising there again, same thing, same free writing tests required. It’s entirely possible they’re still looking for the
I responded to an ad here on Forumosa via PM. I wanted to know about payment details and the name of the publisher. He/She replied and said I had to send my resume and writing samples first.
I don’t care too much about the payment details but I have to know who I am dealing with before I send my C.V.
I’m not entirely sure what Shape is going on about but I think info about writing, publishers etc. is best shared out in the open - here for example.
As I said before:
This notice is an initiative to share information amongst native English-speaking writers and editors in China & Taiwan.
Clearly, for some of you, then if your writing and editing work is solely confined to Taiwan then I would agree that my idea has little relevance. Hence my previous remark: … this posting will be of interest and relevance to some of you working in Taiwan.
However, because we live in an age of telecommuting, some of you may do work for Chinese companies in China. Therefore, if that is the case, then some of you may come to realise that such a system of emails is useful and can work alongside this forum and others like it.
It was probably your mention of payment that put her guard up. They normally don’t mind telling you who they are, at least. If they don’t, tell them to look elsewhere.
As for writing samples, that’s normal. Its when they ask for free work that you should prick up your ears. I usually say: “Fine. I’ll happily give you 100 words maximum. After that, you’ll be billed at my normal rates.”
And I’ve looked at China, but the pay there tends to be even lower than it is here – not worth the time and effort IMO.
[quote=“sandman”][quote]I don’t care too much about the payment details but I have to know who I am dealing with before I send my C.V. [/quote]It was probably your mention of payment that put her guard up. They normally don’t mind telling you who they are, at least. If they don’t, tell them to look elsewhere.
As for writing samples, that’s normal. Its when they ask for free work that you should prick up your ears. I usually say: “Fine. I’ll happily give you 100 words maximum. After that, you’ll be billed at my normal rates.”
And I’ve looked at China, but the pay there tends to be even lower than it is here – not worth the time and effort IMO.[/quote]
The voice of experience and reason.
Ask their standard rate. If they fumble and cough, say ‘Thank you for your time.
You know what areas I work in. Give me a call when you want something in that/those area/s.’
And don’t sit by the tele waiting for their call.
If you are doing work, expect to be paid for the work. 
Three comments:
First I sincerely applaud any attempt to form a writers/editors union. One of my proudest achievements was the summer I worked for the UFW (United Farm Workers) in California.
Second: the problem you got with forming any kind of serious union in the Far East is that a union has to have both the will and the ability to bust the fucking hands/legs/heads of any and all scabs. I do not say that as a joke or witticism. My cousin up in Vallejo California was a (cough, cough,) union “organizer” and I learned that directly from him. No fooling, his name was Ronny and although his last name did not end in a vowel, (Kennedy ends with a “y” you know. ) he knew what it took to keep a union strong.
Third, I have never in my 12 years in Taiwan seen any Taiwanese/Chinese buyer of words or editing give a rat’s ass about the quality of the writing. 99% of the time they can not tell the difference between the King James Bible and a drunken chat forum post. The other 1% of the time they can tell the difference but do not give a fuck. Bottom line: quality is a non-issue; cheap, cheap and chop, chop quick is all that matters.
So, good luck with your union. And if you ever need a sleazy criminal defense attorney please keep me in mind, as long as the union has the fee up front.
Oh, I should mention, my latest book came out today, in Chinese, its gripping title is:
American Legal Ethics. (really! Look for it at your local bookstore).
Yours in the brotherhood of the word biz,
Brian
(remember the Irish were the original American gangsters)
What on earth does this mean?
Well, pardon me for saying so, but Duh!
You mean you DON’T do this? How do you avoid being screwed?
Achieving precisely what? 
I’m sorry, but I really still don’t grasp exactly what it is you are proposing.
[quote=“sandman”]
I’m sorry, but I really still don’t grasp exactly what it is you are proposing.[/quote]
Thank you. Quite frankly, neither do I.
I think that if the OP has this information, or wants people to share with him, the best thing for him to do is to set up a Web site – one that can be accessed from anywhere, anytime, by anyone, and which does not require the participants to give out their personal information such as e-mail – and set up a simple forum. It’s easy to do.
Lots of people (myself included) would not give out a personal e-mail to someone like this (knowing nothing either good or bad about him) because of the risks involved (spamming being the least of them). Particularly if I were living in China, I’d be cautious about this sort of thing.
I don’t see the downside of a Web site vs. e-mail delivery – except that the OP doesn’t get the e-mails. People who want to participate are responsible for going to the site regularly, checking the prospective client against a list, perhaps, and posting comments. Translators already do that regularly on several sites; I don’t see where writers would be any different.
delete please
First, a general reply.
I’ve added my name and email address here. Really, I should have done that in my first message, as my idea is to share information and get people on board.
So, my name is Antony Peyton.
Email: tony_peyton AT hotmail.com
I’m English and have been in Tianjin since September 2003.
You’ll notice that I’ve used AT in my email address. This is to prevent harvesters getting my name and spamming me.
Some of you are concerned about spam or sending an email to a new address. There’s a simple solution, which I’m surprised you haven’t discovered.
One email account is for work and registering at sites. I use my hotmail for that. Yes, I get some spam, but can live with that.
Another separate email account with another email provider is for friends and family. This means no spam and gives me security.
I suggest you do the same if you’re so concerned about it. There is no limit to the number of your email accounts.
[quote=“brianlkennedy”]Three comments:
First I sincerely applaud any attempt to form a writers/editors union. One of my proudest achievements was the summer I worked for the UFW (United Farm Workers) in California.[/quote]
Thanks for the comments, but as I said before: I’m not attempting to create a trade union. These are illegal in China as we know and not my desire, and it’s not a moral crusade, but merely a legitimate action to maintain a reasonable standard of living. I’m a realist, not an idealist, and believe with a little common sense we can improve our prospects.
It’s not a union. While, I understand and agree with you here, it’s not relevant to my aims.
I don’t know about Taiwan, but believe you, and agree that Chinese employers are always looking for the lowest price and can’t tell good English from Chinglish.
But, my idea is to ensure that writers & editors are aware of their value and don’t go too low.
However, not every editing work within China will be for Chinese. I’ve worked for the Energy Foundation & EU-China Environment Program (both in Beijing). Have deliberately mentioned their names as they are professional, give you a contract and pay on time. I share good news as well. The editing work for them will be checked by a native speaker (an Energy specialist not a proofreader) - therefore it must be of a very high quality.
[quote]So, good luck with your union. And if you ever need a sleazy criminal defense attorney please keep me in mind, as long as the union has the fee up front.
Oh, I should mention, my latest book came out today, in Chinese, its gripping title is:
American Legal Ethics. (really! Look for it at your local bookstore).[/quote]
Thanks and I’ll look out for it.
What on earth does this mean? [/quote]
It means what do we charge. How much do we charge per hour or per words? There’s no reason to go too low with editing fees. Some people genuinely don’t know or are unsure.
It’s something I want to discuss with others to see if it will work.
You know this. I know this. But as I said before: Some young foreigners fresh off the plane, have got a lot to learn, and sometimes it’s their weaknesses which will impact on us. How many people know their financial worth, or how to negotiate, or the tricks of the trade? I’ve still got a lot to learn myself. If we inform each other of the pitfalls, then it ultimately improves this entire profession’s bargaining power.
Do you talk to people face-to-face in this condescending manner? I don’t think so.
I know about this, but want to ensure everybody else does. Not everybody is as experienced and as knowledgeable as you.
They get the money owed to you. It’s that simple.
At writersweekly.com, they have a “Whispers & Warnings” section. Some websites will write on your behalf and some companies will pay up, as they don’t want the bad publicity.
I agree that it’s highly debatable in China or Taiwan that we could get our money back, but it’s still bad publicity for the offending people.
I’m mildly surprised that you haven’t grasped it. I’ve used exactly the same words to people in Beijing. They understood me quickly and clearly.
However, no need to apologise. Let me go through it again.
- You decide you want to share and gain info about writing and editing.
- You send me an email to: tony_peyton AT hotmail.com.
- I introduce you to the group. Everybody can see each other’s email addresses. We reply using the ‘reply all’ function.
- We issue warnings, cautions, good news items, and so on. We can all see it. Think about it, if five people can confirm that a warning on a company looking for an editor is correct, then none of us will approach that company. None of us will get burnt.
Some of the feedback here has seriously made me think that perhaps a website is better. But, there are reasons against it:
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People on websites are sometimes prone to communicating in a different way than when they are face-to-face or by email. Your posts prove my point. People hide behind the mask of anonymity and become rude, aggressive or some even start trolling. I’m trying to avoid that. If we communicate by email - then we look at the recipients more as individuals and our tone of speech is more civil and measured. The way I speak to you is the same as if we were face-to-face.
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There are many websites out there. Another one just adds to the glut.
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Trolls. Easier to ban somebody by email than by a website.
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I’m not looking for lengthy discussions on email. It’s just a quick informative ‘newsletter’. So email is better for that.
Why?
Do you have a better idea?
Okay you do not want a union, you just (if I understand you right, which I am not sure I do) want to form a clearinghouse for information. That is fine, but why all the gyrations about send me your email address so you can form what I think is called in cyber-talk “a mailing list”.
I hate mailing list because they litter my inbox with junk. I have made the mistake of joining a number of mailing list and I un-joined within days when I pop open my email and have 5 hundred zillion messages the bulk of which are for porn sites or penis enlargements.
Why not just use some site like Forumosa, try and talk the owners/mods into a writers/editors category and have folks involved in the writing biz use that.
The other problem, which several of the reply post alluded to; is what exactly is your goal? The writing editing business, as least as practiced by Kuo-Kennedy Inc. (i.e. me and my wife) is kind of an insolated on your own deal. Being part of an email list or non-union union does me little good.
In my case for example my editing is exclusively done for various agencies in the criminal justice system and their rates are set by “regulation” (although by odd coincidence the set rate seems to vary, but only within the ranges of “moderately shity” to “fuck I would make more flipping burgers shity”) so my only decision is to take it or leave it.
As to the magazine pieces I do, some magazines pay more (Topics for example) some pay less (the American Journal of Chinese studies, which pays a handsome $0 per word but the editor is good people so I help him out).
As to the book payment rates, that too seems pretty set (at least as far as law books go) and my only hope is that the book goes into a second printing or (as my first one did) it gets released in hardback which mean more dough up front.
I do not need an email list or a non-union union to know these things. As for the “fresh off the boat kids” and or the “kiddy english teachers” wanting to muscle me out of my job, that is not much worry because I am connected in the (very small) world of criminal law editing/writing in Taiwan.
And in any event it is much ado about nothing since the editing/writing work pays so little that I must go out to teach criminal law twice a day, Monday through Thursday, anyway. My criminal law writing and editing is kind of a subsidiary business to my itinerate criminal law teaching biz.
Again though, good luck on your mailing list, if that is what you have in mind.
It is now nap time for us older folks after having a wonderful Subway sandwich which my teaching, not my writing, paid for.
Take care,
Brian
So what you really seem to want is to set up some kind of deal whereby you have a way of telling young kids not to undercut the market?
That would be great, but its not going to work. There will always be someone willing to work for virtually nothing in order to get their foot in the door. Its the nature of the business – of practically ANY non-union business, in my experience.
And call me selfish (its a very accurate description), but the way I see it, the more of these wannabes are getting work off dodgy contracts that pay peanuts, the fewer will be competing against me for the contracts I want.
As for the email thing, I agree with the others – just more junk to have to deal with every day. A Website would be far better, IMO.
Plus, I wouldn’t have anything to contribute – it’s been many many years since I was screwed by a client so I don’t really have any kind of list of bad clients. And while I trust my own ability to smell fish off a prospective client within a couple of emails or a single phone call, I certainly would not give even passing consideration to an email from a total stranger telling me to “watch out” for such-and-such a company or whatever.
And FYI, I’m FAR from anonymous here. Many, if not most of the regular posters here have met me many times in person, usually much to their dismay – some of them have actually become very good at crossing the street when they see me approaching. 
Which reminds me: Hey! 914! That restraining order? Girl you know where you can stick that!