Wrong place at the wrong time = time to leave?

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
61

About roadrage: It seems to me that I can do pretty much whatever the hell I like without anyone (except for that bloody camera on Xinsheng S Rd) really caring. Carving people up, being blissfully unaware of concepts like courtesy or ‘right of way’, not looking where you’re going, or thinking about stopping distances, etc. are all perfectly acceptable. The one and only rule seems to be that you don’t get angry with people.

I yelled at a guy once because he pulled out of a side-road at insane speed in his car and nearly knocked me off my bike, so he stopped and was all set to make something of it. But the time I was at fault in an accident the guy in the car was most apologetic and nobody had to hit anybody. People are working to different rules and you just have to take the rough with the smooth. Sure, everyone’s out to kill you. But no-one’s going to get bent out of shape if you’re driving badly.

Usually.

The ‘random’ violence thing is a different matter. But speaking as someone who has been attacked at various times because some idiot didn’t like his shirt, or for the unforgivable sin of talking to a German, I don’t think it’s esecially a Taiwanese problem. Nobody thought it was strange when the guy in the first Star Wars movie initiated a conversation with Obi Wan Kenobi by saying “I don’t like your face.” It’s depressingly normal behaviour in the western world, and usually targeted against at any outsider.

I remember being advised to leave a town festival in the USA in a hurry because a group of cowboys were planning to start something with the new guy in town. And let’s not even get started on random thuggery in the UK. You can get beaten up for being white, or black, or hanging out with someone who is. And I’ve heard some pretty nasty comments in New Zealand from people who don’t like “c.h.i.n.k.s.” and don’t think that decent white people should have anything to do with them. I couldn’t find the post where someone (Bassman?) last year was talking about going to school armed, in N.Z., but I remember quite clearly because of the shock value.

This shit is universal, the problem here is that you’re out of your element and don’t really know the rules the majority are playing by so it’s a surprise when these things happen. And now you’re the outsider. But is it more of a problem than it would be anywhere else? Especially if you’re in a relationship with someone of a different race?

Does it really help to go around armed? A friend of mine once told me that if you’re going to a knife-fight you should take a gun and a bunch of friends. Sure, you might be able to intimidate 9 out of 10 morons, but as these are random events do you want to antagonise the random 1/10 that do have the crowd of heavily-armed mates just around the corner?

This kind of stuff scares the shit out of me, but I encounter it less here than I have done in other places. It might happen in clubs, but I’ve heard plenty of newbies comment on how little trouble there is when they go out.

Having said all those nice, balanced things…

Paradise it ain’t. I’m leaving in September.

62

You actually met a Taiwanese person who knew the real purpose for using a turn signal? Now that is shocking (and I’m actually being serious).[/quote]

No way! That was in Australia hahaha… I seriously wouldn’t drive here. Impossible I would most definitely get into altercations. Thats why I love Taipei… great public transport.

63

I’m aware that random violence happens everywhere. As upsetting as this attack was, I’m aware that such things do happen elsewhere. However, I was at least as upset by the police response here as by the incident itself. I think the response to a report of this kind to police in a country such as the UK, US or Canada likely would have been very different. I guess a further irritation is the apathy of the average bystander. The chasing and attack occured in daylight with many potential witnesses. How many came forward to identify the assailants or report what they saw? How many called 110 from their cellphones even? The system as it works in Taiwan enables people to engage in criminal acts of this kind with virtual impunity.

64

Toasty -
I sincerely am glad to hear of your blowing off steam on the driving range. Good golfing tuesday a.m.
Now that the adrenalin rush is behind you, I hope the incident will just become just an ‘umpleasant memory’ and not a lingering ghost.
Best of luck to you and yours.

And on another note - Believe it or not, yesterday, I ran my first redlight here.
I found it rather unpleasant. Weird… :loco:

65

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]
I sincerely am glad to hear of your blowing off steam on the driving range.[/quote]

Golf clubs have many uses.

wftv.com/news/4384989/detail … c&psp=news

66

A while ago my wife was riding home on her scooter. The traffic was jam packed and like everyone else she was squeezing between the cars. One of them she nicked and the guy inside went berserk. My wife was not in the best of moods herself after a 13 .5 hour day at work so she told him to calm the hell down as which point her pulled out a knife and started running after her. All of this in full view of everyone. Lucky she managed to get away but she heard the guy screaming that he had her license plate number and that he would get her. When she arrived home she was pretty shaken, and did not dare to ride her bike home from work again. We never heard from the guy again, which is good, but it could have turned into a really nasty situation.

I guess when you too many rats in a cage they are bound to start biting one another.

67

[quote=“Comrade Stalin”][quote=“TainanCowboy”]
I sincerely am glad to hear of your blowing off steam on the driving range.[/quote]Golf clubs have many uses.
wftv.com/news/4384989/detail … c&psp=news[/quote]
Dear Comrade -
Well, its not like folks can go to the range and spend a few hours throwing .45acp 200gr SWC’s down range.
Thats my preferred method of social stress relief.
Totally un-available here on the island.

68

Funny, some people have tried to use NYC as an example of lots of random violence. But growing up near NYC and spending a lot of time in Queens and Brooklyn, I’ve seen as much random violence as I have here in Taiwan.

My sister-in-law used to be a emergency room nurse and RenAi hospital and I remember hanging around waiting for my now wife watching poeple come in with thier brains exposed due to fights over parking spaces. More than once I saw people that had been forced into a barrier or the like and then pulled from the wrecked car and beaten. The scary part for me was always the attitude of the police - they tended to blame the victim - it was like “gee, they shouldn’t have upset those people”

Random violence may happen more in the US, but there is a much higher likely that the police will do something usefull.

69

That i think is as much Toasty’s point as anything else, shit happens everywhere, but at least in most places the local cops actually care and try to do something about it, whilst here, they dont give a shit most of the time.

70

What are the likely legal consequences of shooting people in self defence here?

71

The first issue is where did you get the gun. Unlawful possesion of a handgun can attract the death penalty. Clearly it doesn’t always, but it can.

HG

72

Man oh man. Whatever happened to turn the other cheek?

This guy wants to use guns to solve problems??? Did I read somewhere that you are a born-again Christian as well? Geez Louise buddy, get a grip.

Folks, it’s really quite simple. They get enraged because they’ve lost face. If you don’t know how important this is to the Asian person, then you are not paying attention.

The simplest, most non-violent way outta a face situation is to give it back to them. A simple, “Sorry, I’m having a bad day, please forgive my rudeness” will go a lot further than a bullet will.

Whether you mean it or not, it matters not a jot. It’s about perception. If they’ve percieved themselves to have conquered you, face-wise, there is usually no need to escalate. And you, you’ll live to honk another day.

Or you could go home, buy a gun and shoot anyone that looks sideways at you. See Crash. Lovely insight on a gun culture.

73

[quote=“Ironman”][quote=“Tomas”] When it comes, it comes swiftly, and the target is usually outnumbered. Onlookers may watch in anger or disgust, but rarely intercede. You are on your own.

BTW, a group of bad guys won’t attack you one at a time like in a Bruce Lee movie. [color=blue]They’ll swarm[/color], which will probably neutralize whatever you are trying to do to defend yourself.
[/quote]

The good part must be that they’d have trouble hurting you without knives while they swarm. They’d get in the way of each others work. I’d be guessing you’d probably cop the worst injuries when they backed off and laid the boots and bats in.

[/quote]

Eight against one:

Two or three on each arm, no matter how oaken it is, and you’re immobilized.

Two to four to take turns beating the shit out of you, front and back.

It isn’t difficult when it’s eight on one.

74

Man oh man. Whatever happened to turn the other cheek?[/quote]

I’m a Christian, I believe in turning the other cheek.

I personally do not want to use guns to solve problems. But I am interested in an answer to the question. If I suspend my Christian beliefs I see no particular reason for permitting someone to take me apart and beat me to death just because he has decided to take offence at something.

If I suspend my Christian beliefs I see no particular reason why I can’t simply shoot him to defend myself. I certainly see no particular reason why his life should be considered sacrosanct.

They lose more face with a .357 slug to the head. If they can’t handle a loss of face without exploding into the desire to inflict mortal injury, then they should be prepared for the consequences.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do, surely? If you’re living a culture in which violence is seen as the correct method of dealing with conflict, then it’s appropriate to conform to the cultural norm.

I honestly do not believe that for the slightest moment. We are not talking about rational human beings who behave in a respectful manner towards others. We are talking about people who are ethically (and very likely mentally), no different to animals, and who understand violence just the way animals do.

[quote]Whether you mean it or not, it matters not a jot. It’s about perception. If they’ve percieved themselves to have conquered you, face-wise, there is usually no need to escalate. And you, you’ll live to honk another day.

Or you could go home, buy a gun and shoot anyone that looks sideways at you. See Crash. Lovely insight on a gun culture.[/quote]

I am not talking about people who get miffed when you scratch their fender. I am talking about the bestial creatures who target innocent bystanders for random ultraviolence on a whim.

75

Yeah, group attacks are feckin scary (speaking from experience… bad memories), and there’s little you can do, no matter how well you can fight (and I’m not a fighter), when a group rushes you all at once.

Seems like most of the violence here stems from road rage/driving incidents, whether provoked or completely random, as sometimes seems to be the case…

I still don’t think that Taiwan is as dangerous (violence-wise) as many other countries - I mean, the chances of you being attacked on the street, or in a pub, for no reason, are pretty slim compared to a lot of Western countries where “looking at someone funny”, having a friend/girlfriend of a different race, or wearing the wrong colour tee shirt or whatever can get you beaten up by thugs.

Back home, quite a few steroid freaks used to go out to pubs for the sole purpose of looking for fights and beating people up. My Canadian friend told me about some guys he knew back home who were into martial arts - they would go into pubs and sing along to boy band songs to try and elicit a “fag” comment from someone, who they would then beat to shit.

And my brother was beaten up in England by a bunch of chavs because they didn’t like the shirt he was wearing. You don’t see groups of thugs hanging around on street corners here waiting for people to pic fights with.

Road rage, I guess, is a lot more common here though, since courtesy and respect for others whilst driving seems to be a completely alien concept here. Wasn’t there a thread on road rage a while ago?

76

Yes Ratbrain, that was the very incident to which I refer, so you know what I mean about unprovoked.
I think tho, that in that case when they looked at my face from the front and saw I was a foreigner, it put enough weirdness into the equation for them to think twice…and you guys being there too.
I dunno tho, I am in the process of getting new full face helmet. I am not sure if it would help or not to hide my foreign face - I guess it looks pretty damn intimidating to have a black or silver finish visor.[/quote]

I think what really kept them from pursuing their initial goals was ratbrain doing those Teak-Wondo moves on the back of my motorcycle. Damn scary if you have to look at them.

On a more serious note, I must agree with Loretta. Carring a weapon around with you just bears the risk of a escallation of the situation if you pull out your baseball bat at the wrong guy, or you end up having to use it if your opponent does not feel intimidated by it. I was thinking about putting my baseball bat into my car but then never did it because of those two reasons. Maybe pulling it out the last minute for self defense might be another solution, instead of trying the Matrix move of intimidation.

77

The road rage incidents I can understand and this is not exclusive to Taiwan, but for the foreigners getting chased with sticks and jumped in clubs I have to ask

78

[quote=“TainanCowboy”][quote=“Comrade Stalin”][quote=“TainanCowboy”]
I sincerely am glad to hear of your blowing off steam on the driving range.[/quote]Golf clubs have many uses.
wftv.com/news/4384989/detail … c&psp=news[/quote]
Dear Comrade -
Well, its not like folks can go to the range and spend a few hours throwing .45acp 200gr SWC’s down range.
Thats my preferred method of social stress relief.
Totally un-available here on the island.[/quote]

Since we are talking here about stress relief, and relief of frustration, after a terrible week of Taiwan traffic experience, I love to turn on my XBox and play BurnOut, where your primary goal is to push opponents of the road. I am still waiting for a blue truck modification.

Oh, I forgot to add, that I am shocked about toasty’s experience in Taiwan traffic, and for that matter, of the experience that all the other posters share. You have my absolut sympathy, and I know how easy it is to tick other members of the road community off here in Taiwan. Be careful out there boys.

79

For a culture where they are pressured from the time they enter school and smacked around by everyone - grandma, their 1st grade teacher, and most of all their parents, a culture where they are taught to suppress their feelings and anger in order to maintain “face”, a culture where they are not allowed to make mistakes and are severely punished and have their whole lives altered because of a single test score, where kids (and adults) spend their free time (yes, it really does exist) playing “games” where they blow people off the face of the earth for no reason, where every relatively healthy adult male is trained to kill… it is hardly surprising that what seems trivial can set off such a rage.

The anger and violence here that is boiling under the surface is very, very scary when you sit down and think about it…or worse, are confronted by even the little bit that escapes now and then.

The Taiwanese are a very angry society, especially the men, from the way they are raised and treated and expected to behave. I’ve been lucky to not have to experience any more than that which was dealt by a three-year-old (I still have a scar from one of his tantrums five years ago), but I can’t imagine how much more power he could have unleashed if he had been 20 years older and having to deal with the same amount of shit during that time as he had already dealt with in his first three years.

80

I agree generally, but don’t think it applies so much in my case. I believe these people were out looking for trouble. Firstly, I did nothing out of the ordinary in my driving. I didn’t cut them off, gesture to them, say anything to them, honk my horn at them or anything similar. It’s not always about face when you have a car load of thugs. I really want to dispell this misconception that I did anything to bring this attack on myself, not that any driving error would deserve such a response, even if I had committed one (and I didn’t).

You tell that to them as they try to force you off the road, hit your car with a baseball bat while moving, or as they force you stop in a narrow section of the road, get out and charge your car with the baseball bat over their head. In such a situation, it’s not about the giving or taking of “face,” it’s about fight or flight.

I would have loved to have had a gun at that moment, but I would have been regretting it from that moment on. At a certain point, you change a situation from being the problem or fault of the assaillant into being yours. I’ve been told by police and others that my repsonse was the best possible. Don’t escalate the stuation; just get out of it. If I responded to their weapon threats with weapon threats or use of my own, I would have opened a whole new can of worms for myself. Trust me, I thought about doing a lot of things at the time, the easiest would have been to use my car as a weapon and ram them as they got out of their car. It’s probably best I didn’ t in the end. I have no interest in discovering what a Taiwanese prison cell looks like from the inside.