Your kids: What will their language of eloquence be?

[TomHill]

@sandman

[quote]I also don’t see families here communicating the same way they do in the west. Real conversation. About real topics. Here I see an incredible isolation within families, and a lack of communication. Obviously there are exceptions, but I believe my generalizations are true.

I believe it too. I also believe its the same in the West. You sound like you’re either comparing with your own “non-normal” (for want of a better expression) childhood experience, or else you’re viewing Western family life through rose-coloured spectacles.[/quote]

East VS West ideology. Does your wife support your views about Taiwanese society?

Young Taiwanese children are multi-lingual, and self-reliant as individuals. In England my sisters baby is smothered with love and is a total nightmare. I’m certainly re-evaluating wht I thought about Taiwanese rearing. And having met kids here again I am certainly re-evaluating what ‘knowledge’ really is.

[smithsgj]

@Maoman

[quote=“sandman”]In most Western living rooms the TV takes pride of place too.

Really? Where I grew up TVs were for the rec room, aka the family room, aka the den. Living rooms were for company, and for conversation. [/quote]

Really? Where I grew up we were 三房一廳 mate. The telly was in the living room.

OK shall I shamelessly embarrass myself in front of all Forumosa? Here goes:

Because of my Taiwan/China experience/exposure, I have read some classical poetry, but not really any novels. I know quite a lot about the Cultural Revolution and mainland history, and something of 2/28 and other events here.

I’ve read precisely one novel by Hemingway, “The old Man and the Sea”. Shakespeare I read at school because I had to; I know “out damn spot” was said by Lady Macbeth, but I can’t remember in what context. I read a collection of short stories called “The Golden Apples of the Sun” by Ray Bradbury,
and was thinking just yesterday that the expression “Butterfly effect” might come from one of the stories (someone goes back in time, kills a butterfly, comes back and finds that history has changed in his absence. But I’m astounding myself that I can remember this author’s name.

I haven’t written any book reports, and I don’t really know what they are. I’ve done some literary criticism in a very amateurish and childlike way, probably when I was in the 6th form: I hardly think it was formative! I’m not sure if I have the requisite knowledge of western classics: certainly I’ve read a lot of novels, but not as part of any curriculum.

I have an idea what Machiavellian means, and I think it’s from Dante or Proust (probably Dante, cos it’s an Italian name). I don’t know what the trials of Job are. On original sin, I would have understood the snake joke, and I know who Plato was, though I don’t know why the adjective is used of relationships (again, I do know what it means, and don’t pronounce it “Plutonic”). I know who Archduke Ferdinand is, and the conection with WW1, because I happen to have visited Sarajevo.

I’m reasonably articulate but I don’t think eloquent. I went to university late in life, but I did go, and now I have a PhD and I teach at a minor university here. I’ve had a few papers published. My upbringing prepared my reasonably well, I thought, for a life and career in either Taiwan or the West. Seems like I was wrong about that.

I’ve never been into comics, but if my kids start reading them I shall approve, because I think essentially all reading is good and to be encouraged. Especially if it’s done so avidly that the kids spend entire afternoons in the bookshops, sitting on the floor, reading.

My experience is that everyone always has a book on the go. Our toilet is full of books! You often find reduced book events where the tables are just groaning. There are at least two brand new, enormous bookshops, in and near 101, and within spitting distance of each other.

I’d say the Taiwan appetite for books is pretty much insatiable.

I don’t even know who Linda Arrigo is, still less have I ever met her. She doesn’t sound like a Forumosan, so I suppose she must be famous. Perhaps if I had the appropriate cultural background, I’d be able to name drop too!

[maoman]

@TomHill

[quote=“sandman”][quote]I also don’t see families here communicating the same way they do in the west. Real conversation. About real topics. Here I see an incredible isolation within families, and a lack of communication. Obviously there are exceptions, but I believe my generalizations are true.

I believe it too. I also believe its the same in the West. You sound like you’re either comparing with your own “non-normal” (for want of a better expression) childhood experience, or else you’re viewing Western family life through rose-coloured spectacles.[/quote]
East VS West ideology. Does your wife support your views about Taiwanese society?[/quote]
Yes. If anything, she’s more passionate than I am on the subject.

[maoman]

@sandman

[quote]I also don’t see families here communicating the same way they do in the west. Real conversation. About real topics. Here I see an incredible isolation within families, and a lack of communication. Obviously there are exceptions, but I believe my generalizations are true.

I believe it too. I also believe its the same in the West. You sound like you’re comparing with your own “non-normal” (for want of a better expression) childhood experience.[/quote]
Well sure, but who wants normal?

[TomHill]

@Maoman

[quote=“TomHill”][quote=“sandman”][quote]I also don’t see families here communicating the same way they do in the west. Real conversation. About real topics. Here I see an incredible isolation within families, and a lack of communication. Obviously there are exceptions, but I believe my generalizations are true.

I believe it too. I also believe its the same in the West. You sound like you’re either comparing with your own “non-normal” (for want of a better expression) childhood experience, or else you’re viewing Western family life through rose-coloured spectacles.[/quote]
East VS West ideology. Does your wife support your views about Taiwanese society?[/quote]
Yes. If anything, she’s more passionate than I am on the subject.[/quote]

Hmmmm. MrsHill is the same. What have we gotten ourselves into matey?

[sandman]

@Maoman

[quote=“sandman”][quote]I also don’t see families here communicating the same way they do in the west. Real conversation. About real topics. Here I see an incredible isolation within families, and a lack of communication. Obviously there are exceptions, but I believe my generalizations are true.

I believe it too. I also believe its the same in the West. You sound like you’re comparing with your own “non-normal” (for want of a better expression) childhood experience.[/quote]
Well sure, but who wants normal?[/quote]
No-one in their right mind, IMO. But I just think you’re setting yourself up for disappointment in the way you seem to be lionizing this wonderful “western” education.
You asked about alternatives to TES – have you considered some of these “experimental” schools they have here? I get the feeling that they might be closer to what you have in mind for the maosprog.

[TomHill]

@smithsgj

I have an idea what [color=red]Machiavellian[/color] means, and I think it’s from Dante or Proust (probably Dante, cos it’s an Italian name). I don’t know what the trials of Job are. On original sin, I would have understood the snake joke, and I know who Plato was, though I don’t know why the adjective is used of relationships (again, I do know what it means, and don’t pronounce it “Plutonic”). I know who Archduke Ferdinand is, and the conection with WW1, because I happen to have visited Sarajevo.

constitution.org/mac/prince00.htm

You are too cute!

Ask Maoman what the Tolpuddle martyrs did, or how many farthings made a penny, or who Ian Brady is, or the name of King John’s first son, or who is Saint Columba… Sandman will know, but Maoman probably won’t.

[sandman]

[quote=“TomHill”][quote=“smithsgj”]
I have an idea what [color=red]Machiavellian[/color] means, and I think it’s from Dante or Proust (probably Dante, cos it’s an Italian name). I don’t know what the trials of Job are. On original sin, I would have understood the snake joke, and I know who Plato was, though I don’t know why the adjective is used of relationships (again, I do know what it means, and don’t pronounce it “Plutonic”). I know who Archduke Ferdinand is, and the conection with WW1, because I happen to have visited Sarajevo.

[/quote]

constitution.org/mac/prince00.htm

You are too cute!

Ask Maoman what the Tolpuddle martyrs did, or how many farthings made a penny, or who Ian Brady is, or the name of King John’s first son, or who is Saint Columba… Sandman will know, but Maoman probably won’t.[/quote]
But he could easily find out by googling, which is also how kids avail themselves of knowledge these days. And there’s nowt wrong with that either.

Earlier, Maoman commented on the state of my education, received starting from more than 40 years ago, as part of his argument about modern education.
That set me to thinking – talking about 40-year spans, I wonder how much my late-sixties curriculum compared to that of a kid 40 years earlier, in the mid-1920s? Apart from Latin and Shakespeare, there were probably few similarities. And was the education of the 1920s so much better that that in the 60s? I’m sure there were a lot of curmudgeons who thought so at the time, but I don’t think they were right.

[TomHill]

Fear of young people is human nature. They are younger, stronger, faster, smarter. So we hold them up to be reckless and wasteful. The chances that Sandman had a better education than a kid today are none. The chances that we view the past with false nostalgia are about 95%.

These are the good old days. Don’t you know your Celestine Prophecy, young padawan?

[smithsgj]

[quote=“sandman”][quote=“TomHill”][quote=“smithsgj”]
I have an idea what [color=red]Machiavellian[/color] means, and I think it’s from Dante or Proust (probably Dante, cos it’s an Italian name). I don’t know what the trials of Job are. On original sin, I would have understood the snake joke, and I know who Plato was, though I don’t know why the adjective is used of relationships (again, I do know what it means, and don’t pronounce it “Plutonic”). I know who Archduke Ferdinand is, and the conection with WW1, because I happen to have visited Sarajevo.

[/quote]

constitution.org/mac/prince00.htm

You are too cute!

Ask Maoman what the Tolpuddle martyrs did, or how many farthings made a penny, or who Ian Brady is, or the name of King John’s first son, or who is Saint Columba… Sandman will know, but Maoman probably won’t.[/quote]
But he could easily find out by googling, which is also how kids avail themselves of knowledge these days. And there’s nowt wrong with that either.

Earlier, Maoman commented on the state of my education, received starting from more than 40 years ago, as part of his argument about modern education.
That set me to thinking – talking about 40-year spans, I wonder how much my late-sixties curriculum compared to that of a kid 40 years earlier, in the mid-1920s? Apart from Latin and Shakespeare, there were probably few similarities. And was the education of the 1920s so much better that that in the 60s? I’m sure there were a lot of curmudgeons who thought so at the time, but I don’t think they were right.[/quote]

First time I’ve been told I’m ke’ai!

Thanks for the link, I was still too lazy to go and Google the gaps in my knowledge. Anyway the Prince, yeah, I remember now. And I remember he changed his name to something you can’t write down

[TomHill]

[quote=“smithsgj”][quote=“sandman”][quote=“TomHill”][quote=“smithsgj”]
I have an idea what [color=red]Machiavellian[/color] means, and I think it’s from Dante or Proust (probably Dante, cos it’s an Italian name). I don’t know what the trials of Job are. On original sin, I would have understood the snake joke, and I know who Plato was, though I don’t know why the adjective is used of relationships (again, I do know what it means, and don’t pronounce it “Plutonic”). I know who Archduke Ferdinand is, and the conection with WW1, because I happen to have visited Sarajevo.

[/quote]

constitution.org/mac/prince00.htm

You are too cute!

Ask Maoman what the Tolpuddle martyrs did, or how many farthings made a penny, or who Ian Brady is, or the name of King John’s first son, or who is Saint Columba… Sandman will know, but Maoman probably won’t.[/quote]
But he could easily find out by googling, which is also how kids avail themselves of knowledge these days. And there’s nowt wrong with that either.

Earlier, Maoman commented on the state of my education, received starting from more than 40 years ago, as part of his argument about modern education.
That set me to thinking – talking about 40-year spans, I wonder how much my late-sixties curriculum compared to that of a kid 40 years earlier, in the mid-1920s? Apart from Latin and Shakespeare, there were probably few similarities. And was the education of the 1920s so much better that that in the 60s? I’m sure there were a lot of curmudgeons who thought so at the time, but I don’t think they were right.[/quote]

First time I’ve been told I’m ke’ai!

Thanks for the link, I was still too lazy to go and Google the gaps in my knowledge. Anyway the Prince, yeah, I remember now. And I remember [color=red]he changed his name to something you can’t write down[/color] [/quote]

TuPac Shakur? You can write that down!

[smithsgj]

Well O{+> a duck, so you can!

[sjcma]

@smithsgj

[quote=“sjcma”] I think people just assume your child’s primary language is English. My son started Saturday Chinese school yesterday and he cried when I left the classroom. I peeked inside the classroom and saw that the teacher was trying to comfort him in English, obviously assuming my son’s primary language is English. Of course, even with the little English he understands, he won’t be able to understand her very very heavy accent. Oh well…

I hope he made it through the class OK. It’s always a difficult situation, for kids and parents: our younger boy is just starting nursery two days a week (although his baomu’s place is like a mini-nursery anyway). This morning he just didn’t want to let go of my hand, so I had to pretend to be a plane for a while, and join them in their ghastly song and dance routine of 1234567 wode hao pengyou zai nali before he’d let me go! Anyway good luck next Sat.[/quote]

:offtopic: He stopped crying after 30 minutes and seemed to enjoy himself after that. Perhaps we should start a new thread… “How do you deal with separation anxiety when your kids go to (pre-)school”.

[sjcma]

@Maoman

I don’t see any of this happening in Taiwan at any step of the educational process. Look at the Chinese classics - how many students here ever read them? Ever? I had an interesting discussion with Linda Arrigo at Cranky Laowai’s house a few weeks ago about her reading a nigh-impossible-to-get original version of Sun Yat-sen’s “Three Principles of the People”. You can’t even get it in a library! What about Dream of the Red Chamber (紅樓夢), Journey to the West (西遊記), Romance of the Three Kingdoms (三國演義), or Water Margin (水滸傳)?

The fact is that these classic are simply too large and too difficult to be taught in its entirety in high school. It would be like teaching War and Peace written in old English times 3 or the complete works of Shakespeare or the entire Bible in Latin. However, excerpts of the classics are taught in high school. You can glean high school material on the web from several publishers. They include chapter excerpts from these classics: ＜世說新語＞，＜三國演義＞，＜水滸傳＞，＜聊齋誌異＞，＜紅樓夢＞.

Furthermore, they teach shorter classics such as these: 桃花源記, 黃州快哉亭記, 赤壁賦, 岳陽樓記, 陳情表, 琵琶行, 師說, 出師表, 與陳伯之書, 正氣歌. Numerous Tang dynasty poems and novels from more modern writers are also taught starting from elementary school.
[ul]EDIT: To you give you an idea of how big these classics are: 三國演義 24 volumes, 120 chapters; 水滸傳 4 volumes, 100 chapters; 西遊記 ~100 chapters; 紅樓夢 120 chapters; 聊齋誌異 16 volumes, 491 short stories by the same author. All are written in dense old Chinese.[/ul]
The full version of “Three Principles of the People” is readily availabe on the internet for those that care to look. But do you know that the Three Principles contains 155,000+ characters?!! That’s a pretty heavy read that also requires the student to be well grounded in Chinese history and have some basic knowledge of the turn of the century European/American/Russian political thought. Hence, a distilled version of it is taught in high school. No wonder it’s an area of study mostly confined to universities.

Have you actually researched the public high school syllabus with respect to Chinese language education? Have you talked to a high school Chinese teacher about this topic? And if you did, what do you think is a “must read” list in Chinese literature? If you disagree with what’s being taught, why?

I’m going to hazard a guess that your lack of knowledge of Chinese literature is hindering your ability to properly assess just what constitutes a proper Chinese literary education. But feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.

Have you ever heard of a high school student who has read any of the Chinese classics in a non-comic book format?

Some would argue that one of the ultimate “classics” of English literature is the King James version of the Bible. So many works of literature uses the Bible as a reference. How many kids in the western world have read the King James version of the Bible cover to cover? Or any version for that matter.

Do you want your kids to know what “Out, damned spot!” means? What about the trials of Job? To know what it means to be Machiavellian? To learn about bullfighting through Hemingway? To understand the concept of original sin, or know what the Platonic part of a Platonic relationship really means?

I might as well shamelessly embarass myself as smithsgj already has. I went through public school here in Canada and I’ve read neither Hemingway, Bradbury, nor Plato. I know what Machiavellian means but only because of google and wikipedia. I know about the trials of Job and the original sin because I’m Christian. I learned about Job on my own as an adult, and not through the Catholic school that I attended for 4 years. “Out, damned spot”? Sure, I know it. But so what. How many classic Chinese phrases do you know and are able to use in a nuanced way?

How about a little history? The assassination of Archduke Ferdinand? Maybe that’s a little too far from home. How about a close look at what caused Japan’s militarism in the first part of the 20th century? Still too far from home? Great. Let’s study 228. No? How about the White Terror? Oops, no indepth knowledge of domestic dirty laundry, please.

In a survey last year of locally-born adult Canadians, 60% of them were unable to pass the immigration test. C’mon, world history? How about just being able to name the ten provincial capitals of your own country! And how many Americans can name the capital of their largest trading partner? When I visited my brother in Seattle and went with him to a dinner party, 100% of the Americans I met (about 15 of them, most with graduate degrees) had not a clue of where I live when I answered their question regarding my place of abode. Is this the western education that you’re referring to?

Now don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that the Taiwanese public education system is wonderful or even on par with schools in the west. But I have the feeling that when you talk about the wonders of western education, you are really talking about the wonders of your own personal experience rather than the experience of western students in general. That, I think, is why sandman ascribed those “rose-coloured spectacles” to you.

[Feiren]

@sjcma

[quote=“Maoman”]I don’t see any of this happening in Taiwan at any step of the educational process. Look at the Chinese classics - how many students here ever read them? Ever? I had an interesting discussion with Linda Arrigo at Cranky Laowai’s house a few weeks ago about her reading a nigh-impossible-to-get original version of Sun Yat-sen’s “Three Principles of the People”. You can’t even get it in a library! What about Dream of the Red Chamber (紅樓夢), Journey to the West (西遊記), Romance of the Three Kingdoms (三國演義), or Water Margin (水滸傳)?

Lots of bright Taiwanese kids read these books themselves outside of class. Boys tend to gravitate toward Three Kingdoms, girls to HLM. Some of those comic books you see in the store are actually excellent reference guides to Three Kingdoms.

The fact is that these classic are simply too large and too difficult to be taught in its entirety in high school. It would be like teaching War and Peace written in old English times 3 or the complete works of Shakespeare or the entire Bible in Latin. However, excerpts of the classics are taught in high school. You can glean high school material on the web from several publishers. They include chapter excerpts from these classics: ＜世說新語＞，＜三國演義＞，＜水滸傳＞，＜聊齋誌異＞，＜紅樓夢＞.

I’m going to disagree. Most of the classic novels are written in the vernacular, not classical Chinese. Any high school kid who can read Jin Yong can definitely handle the Ming Qing classics. The reason they are not read as part of the curriculum mainly has to do with the way the schools are set up here. Classes are too big to devote substantial time to close reading and intensive discussion. Kids have far too many classes, and evaluation is based on testing. Teachers just don’t have time to read batches of book reports and essays on literary works from their 50 or 60 students. Another factor is a lingering prejudice against works of vernacular fiction among Chinese teachers. The Chinese canon works differently than the modern western canon and is heavily biased in favor of poetry and classical prose.

[quote]
Have you actually researched the public high school syllabus with respect to Chinese language education? Have you talked to a high school Chinese teacher about this topic? And if you did, what do you think is a “must read” list in Chinese literature? If you disagree with what’s being taught, why?

I’m going to hazard a guess that your lack of knowledge of Chinese literature is hindering your ability to properly assess just what constitutes a proper Chinese literary education. But feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.[/quote]

Taiwan’s high school curriculum is decidely not micky mouse. Maoman, you should browse through the high school Chinese and history textbooks. The Chinese literature curriculum is intended to give kids a grounding in classical Chinese. You are supposed absorb the humansit stuff by osmosis. This curriculum is something like the kind of grounding in classics that a traditional humanist western education tried to instil.

I would venture to say that Taiwanese students at elite high schools are probably better grounded in modern world history than their counterparts in North America. It’s stunning how much ground they have to cover in what kind of detail.

Then there is the excellent preparation in math and sciences that kids get here along with formidable academic discipline.

While I think an excellent education of a kind is available in Taiwan’s elite highs shools like Jianzhong and Beinu, I share Maoman’s concerns. The curiculum does not teach close reading, analytic skills, or rhetoric in any kind of systematic way. The good news is that there are alternatives set up by some very bright people for their very bright kids:

chinapress.com.my/topic/focu … school.txt

Do you want your kids to know what “Out, damned spot!” means? What about the trials of Job? To know what it means to be Machiavellian? To learn about bullfighting through Hemingway? To understand the concept of original sin, or know what the Platonic part of a Platonic relationship really means?

All of these works are available in Chinese translations, some of them very good. Keep in mind that we are reading Plato and Machiavelli

I might as well shamelessly embarass myself as smithsgj already has. I went through public school here in Canada and I’ve read neither Hemingway, Bradbury, nor Plato. I know what Machiavellian means but only because of google and wikipedia. I know about the trials of Job and the original sin because I’m Christian. I learned about Job on my own as an adult, and not through the Catholic school that I attended for 4 years. “Out, damned spot”? Sure, I know it. But so what. How many classic Chinese phrases do you know and are able to use in a nuanced way?

Not too surprising that you didn’t learn about Job in a Catholic schools. Catholics are far less bible-oriented and tend to avoid the Old Testament even when they do read the bible. Too much reading of the bible detracts from the authority of the Church.

How about a little history? The assassination of Archduke Ferdinand? Maybe that’s a little too far from home. How about a close look at what caused Japan’s militarism in the first part of the 20th century? Still too far from home? Great. Let’s study 228. No? How about the White Terror? Oops, no indepth knowledge of domestic dirty laundry, please.[/quote]

The archduke and Japanese militarism is in there. The new high school textbooks this year attempt to present the controversies of Taiwanese history along with source documents without passing judgment. They’ve done a pretty good job I think.

[sjcma]

@Feiren

[quote]The fact is that these classic are simply too large and too difficult to be taught in its entirety in high school. It would be like teaching War and Peace written in old English times 3 or the complete works of Shakespeare or the entire Bible in Latin. However, excerpts of the classics are taught in high school. You can glean high school material on the web from several publishers. They include chapter excerpts from these classics: ＜世說新語＞，＜三國演義＞，＜水滸傳＞，＜聊齋誌異＞，＜紅樓夢＞.

I’m going to disagree. Most of the classic novels are written in the vernacular, not classical Chinese. Any high school kid who can read Jin Yong can definitely handle the Ming Qing classics. The reason they are not read as part of the curriculum mainly has to do with the way the schools are set up here. Classes are too big to devote substantial time to close reading and intensive discussion. Kids have far too many classes, and evaluation is based on testing. Teachers just don’t have time to read batches of book reports and essays on literary works from their 50 or 60 students. Another factor is a lingering prejudice against works of vernacular fiction among Chinese teachers. The Chinese canon works differently than the modern western canon and is heavily biased in favor of poetry and classical prose.[/quote]

The novels are written in the vernacular, you are correct, but not the modern day vernacular. It’s not classical Chinese but neither is it without classical Chinese. When I wrote “old dense Chinese”, I meant that not only is the language (vernacular) old, it is also much denser than the modern day vernacular imho. My formal Chinese education ended before I finished grade 3. Yet, I was able to read Jin Yong without flipping open the dictionary every 2 sentences. However, I found that the classics, even in its vernacular form, to be a difficult read. I never made it through. I picked up the comic version instead. Shakespeare is written in the vernacular as well, but not in any vernacular that I could wrap my head around easily when I was in high school.

The classics are also large works and it would be difficult to fit in the entire collection of classics without encroaching on other areas of language teaching. There’s a reason why the complete works of Shakespeare are not taught. There wouldn’t be time for anything else. AFAIK, War and Peace does not make a regular appearance on the high school syllabus here either.

[maoman]

@sjcma

[quote=“Maoman”]I don’t see any of this happening in Taiwan at any step of the educational process. Look at the Chinese classics - how many students here ever read them? Ever? I had an interesting discussion with Linda Arrigo at Cranky Laowai’s house a few weeks ago about her reading a nigh-impossible-to-get original version of Sun Yat-sen’s “Three Principles of the People”. You can’t even get it in a library! What about Dream of the Red Chamber (紅樓夢), Journey to the West (西遊記), Romance of the Three Kingdoms (三國演義), or Water Margin (水滸傳)?

Have you actually researched the public high school syllabus with respect to Chinese language education? Have you talked to a high school Chinese teacher about this topic? And if you did, what do you think is a “must read” list in Chinese literature? If you disagree with what’s being taught, why?[/quote]
You’re right that I have done absolutely no formal research. I’m speaking only from my personal experience in Taiwan, of which I have plenty. I’ve lived four years in Jiayi, and over 11 years in Taipei. I have friends in many different social classes, and for nine years I exclusively taught adult professionals in and around Taipei. I also have daily interaction with school-age children and their parents. In addition to the parents’ dismay at the state of English language education in Taiwan, there is also a real disappointment in the way their kids are learning Chinese. Parents say the standards are slipping further and further. If things don’t improve, I’ll probably look for a good Chinese teacher, and then add Chinese classes to my school’s curriculum. There’s certainly a market.

@sjcma

Some would argue that one of the ultimate “classics” of English literature is the King James version of the Bible. So many works of literature uses the Bible as a reference. How many kids in the western world have read the King James version of the Bible cover to cover? Or any version for that matter.

That’s an interesting point. While most people, never mind kids, have read a Bible cover to cover, many, many people have attended Sunday School for years and have a basic understanding of the western world’s primary religion. Religion aside, this also gives people a lot of insight into the culture that shaped their society. And in Taiwan? There is no equivalent. Just a vacuum.

@sjcma

[quote]Do you want your kids to know what “Out, damned spot!” means? What about the trials of Job? To know what it means to be Machiavellian? To learn about bullfighting through Hemingway? To understand the concept of original sin, or know what the Platonic part of a Platonic relationship really means?

I might as well shamelessly embarass myself as smithsgj already has. I went through public school here in Canada and I’ve read neither Hemingway, Bradbury, nor Plato. I know what Machiavellian means but only because of google and wikipedia. I know about the trials of Job and the original sin because I’m Christian. I learned about Job on my own as an adult, and not through the Catholic school that I attended for 4 years. “Out, damned spot”? Sure, I know it. But so what. How many classic Chinese phrases do you know and are able to use in a nuanced way?[/quote]
Well, you’re an exception to my experience, I guess. Most of my friends have read Hemingway and Bradbury. Most of my friends do know what Platonic means, even if they’ve never read The Republic. And how can you get a Catholic education without learning one of the basic stories of the Old Testament? And as fas as ME being able to use Chinese expressions in a nuanced way, well, I can’t. But that’s not the point. I’m not Chinese. My point is that most Taiwanese people can’t use classical Chinese phrases in a nuanced way.

@sjcma

When I visited my brother in Seattle and went with him to a dinner party, 100% of the Americans I met (about 15 of them, most with graduate degrees) had not a clue of where I live when I answered their question regarding my place of abode. Is this the western education that you’re referring to?

My brother lives in Seattle too. He and his circle of friends (many of them Canadian!) are far from clueless. I met a good many of his friends while I was home during the summer and they are bright, well informed people who have studied and lived in a wide variety of countries.

@sjcma

I’m not saying that the Taiwanese public education system is wonderful or even on par with schools in the west. But I have the feeling that when you talk about the wonders of western education, you are really talking about the wonders of your own personal experience rather than the experience of western students in general.

Well, you’re right on both counts. I agree that the Taiwanese public education system is not on par with schools in the west. And my personal experiences in the west, as well as those of my friends, family and peers, is indeed something that I’d like to duplicate for my children, especially in view of the fact that most kids here have a comparatively crummy childhood and an education that crushes their spirit and leaves them woefully ill-equipped to deal with the outside world.

[maoman]

@Feiren

[quote]I learned about Job on my own as an adult, and not through the Catholic school that I attended for 4 years.[/quote]Not too surprising that you didn’t learn about Job in a Catholic schools. Catholics are far less bible-oriented and tend to avoid the Old Testament even when they do read the bible. Too much reading of the bible detracts from the authority of the Church.

Yeah but there are references to Job throughout the New Testament. And of course, Job is important in Islam and Judaism as well.

[Feiren]

And it’s a great story. I’m not saying that one shouldn’t read it. Just that it is not surprising that it wasn’t taught in a Catholic school. When I went to Catholic schools in the US in the late 1970s and early 1980s, we NEVER read the bible in our religious studies class. We did read the Confessions though.

[sjcma]

@Maoman

You’re right that I have done absolutely no formal research. I’m speaking only from my personal experience in Taiwan, of which I have plenty. I’ve lived four years in Jiayi, and over 11 years in Taipei. I have friends in many different social classes, and for nine years I exclusively taught adult professionals in and around Taipei. I also have daily interaction with school-age children and their parents. In addition to the parents’ dismay at the state of English language education in Taiwan, there is also a real disappointment in the way their kids are learning Chinese. Parents say the standards are slipping further and further. If things don’t improve, I’ll probably look for a good Chinese teacher, and then add Chinese classes to my school’s curriculum. There’s certainly a market.

Parents say the standards are slipping, but how is it slipping? I do know that some schools have tried to introduce more critical thinking in their curriculum. But that entails doing less rote memorization and more in-class discussions. When that happens, some parents are up in arms because apparently, kids are not having as much material being pounded into them. Their conclusion is that the standards are slipping. So what’s a well meaning educator supposed to do? Damned if you do, …

@Maoman

That’s an interesting point. While most people, never mind kids, have read a Bible cover to cover, many, many people have attended Sunday School for years and have a basic understanding of the western world’s primary religion. Religion aside, this also gives people a lot of insight into the culture that shaped their society. And in Taiwan? There is no equivalent. Just a vacuum.

Sunday school is not exactly public school is it? Non-Christians must be woefully undereducated then. And in Taiwan? Did you notice all the fumes during ghost month? Are you saying that the Taiwanese have no idea of how their religious beliefs influence their culture?

@Maoman

Well, you’re an exception to my experience, I guess. Most of my friends have read Hemingway and Bradbury. Most of my friends do know what Platonic means, even if they’ve never read The Republic.

But that’s really the point, isn’t it? I’m an exception to your experience and you’re an exception to mine. I do know some friends that are quite well read, but most of the folks that I hang out with couldn’t care less who Hemingway was. I hated English class. It was something that I had to suffer through in order to graduate despite the fact that I got A’s all the way through high school. I read Shakespeare, Heart of Darkness, Duddy Kravitz and other literary works because I had to, not because I wanted to. Obviously, I hung around with like minded folks.

@Maoman

And how can you get a Catholic education without learning one of the basic stories of the Old Testament?

I never said I got a Catholic education. I said I went to a Catholic school for four years. There is a difference.

@Maoman

And as fas as ME being able to use Chinese expressions in a nuanced way, well, I can’t. But that’s not the point. I’m not Chinese. My point is that most Taiwanese people can’t use classical Chinese phrases in a nuanced way.

How would you know if the Taiwanese people can’t use classical Chinese phrases in a nuanced way if your classical Chinese abilities are not up to par? On this side of the ocean, I don’t exactly hear people here using Shakespeare in a nuanced way either (maybe it’s because I’m not a Shakespearean scholar ). There will always be some that do. And then there’s the general population.

@Maoman

My brother lives in Seattle too. He and his circle of friends (many of them Canadian!) are far from clueless. I met a good many of his friends while I was home during the summer and they are bright, well informed people who have studied and lived in a wide variety of countries.

Are your brother’s friends’ educational experiences typical of the average American experience? Are they well informed because of their public high school education? Or was it because they sought out international experience and education as adults? It’s obvious we travel in different circles, but anecdotal evidence aside, do you really think even half of Americans, with their 100% western education, will know the capital of Canada?

Like I said earlier, you’re not really referring to western education in general. You’re really referring to the education that you personally received because you were curious enough to do more than just the basic minimum.

@Maoman

[quote=“sjcma”]I’m not saying that the Taiwanese public education system is wonderful or even on par with schools in the west. But I have the feeling that when you talk about the wonders of western education, you are really talking about the wonders of your own personal experience rather than the experience of western students in general.

Well, you’re right on both counts. I agree that the Taiwanese public education system is not on par with schools in the west. And my personal experiences in the west, as well as those of my friends, family and peers, is indeed something that I’d like to duplicate for my children, especially in view of the fact that most kids here have a comparatively crummy childhood and an education that crushes their spirit and leaves them woefully ill-equipped to deal with the outside world.[/quote]
I’m not saying that the Taiwanese education system is on par with the schools in the west, but I’m also not saying that the schools in the west are better in all facets of education. Up to now, we’ve only been dealing with language. The math and science curriculum (K-12) in most far east countries are much more advanced than anything on offer here in the west. In North American universities, there’s a reason that the number of foreign-born graduate students in the sciences is disproportionately high. In the graduate school that I attended (Univ of Toronto), some engineering disciplines had a majority of foreign-born graduate students.

Yeah, buxiban culture sucks big time. But that doesn’t stop my brother and I from reminiscing fondly of our childhood. Perhaps if we had finished high school in Taiwan, we’d be singing a different tune.