Youth protesters surround Ministry of National Defense

Politics Taiwan Politics
21

It moves people, but doesn’t get them out protesting.[/quote]
It’s also a mechanism of ‘social atoms’. It’s very difficult to explain in details why such and such event trigger an avalanche and the other events don’t.[/quote]

No offense but that’s just jargon. Many other movements have been organized by social media and again did not get this kind of turnout.

I really don’t expect a clear explanation but was just wondering if maybe there was a bigger catalyst like a celebrity endorsement or as icon say, a feeling this is the last straw.

22

I think “last straw” is the reason. I mean this issue affects everyone, and everyone knows that there’s a chance that one doesn’t come back from military alive because officials are corrupt and will do anything including murder to silence anyone.

23

It moves people, but doesn’t get them out protesting.[/quote]
It’s also a mechanism of ‘social atoms’. It’s very difficult to explain in details why such and such event trigger an avalanche and the other events don’t.[/quote]

No offense but that’s just jargon. Many other movements have been organized by social media and again did not get this kind of turnout.

I really don’t expect a clear explanation but was just wondering if maybe there was a bigger catalyst like a celebrity endorsement or as icon say, a feeling this is the last straw.[/quote]

I guess too many people have had bad experiences in the military and heard the stories, this one brought it all out into the open in an unpoliticised format.

24

Must scare the shit out of the Ma admin that an unorganized crowd of that size can just appear simply because they are fed up with bullshit.

25

I hope something positive comes of all of this. Whether it be a further shortening of the military service, or the implementation of a system where things like this can’t happen. It would be nice to see the end of compulsory military service altogether, but that’s not going to happen just yet.

26

According to today’s news, in the first 6 months of the year, they aimed to get 28 000 new volunteers to join the military. They got 462.

chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/nati … litary.htm

I expect the second half of the year will be even fewer after this.

27

You know they should probably get rid of a bunch of generals. There are more generals than fighter pilots and Taiwan doesn’t need that many generals. Why can’t they make the military more serious and disciplined? I mean I’ve seen training for volunteer soldiers and compared to what I’ve heard about boot camp in the US, it is a joke. In the US they actually had to make the training tough to weed people out but for some reason Taiwan can’t seem to get people to join…

If the military is so useless maybe they should disband the army altogether and keep the air force and navy.

28

[quote=“Taiwan Luthiers”]
If the military is so useless maybe they should disband the army altogether and keep the air force and navy.[/quote]

According to the news report I linked, that 462 is for all branches combined - Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps and Military Police

29

Wow, and that is in the context of a really lousy economy with starting wages lower than what the military is offering:

30

[quote=“Mucha Man”]
I really don’t expect a clear explanation but was just wondering if maybe there was a bigger catalyst like a celebrity endorsement or as icon say, a feeling this is the last straw.[/quote]

I believe that this type of absolute human cruelty causes a bigger uproar than other types of events (e.g. environmental, expropriation, corruption, etc.) because all at the same time; it’s sorrowful, infuriating, alarming and most of all, terrifying.

For those of you who may not know, the 228 Massacre started due to a similar reason:

On the evening of February 27, 1947, a Tobacco Monopoly Bureau enforcement team in Taipei confiscated contraband cigarettes from a 40 year old widow. They took her life savings of the non-taxed cigarettes. She begged for their return, but one of the agents hit Lin’s head with a pistol, prompting the surrounding Taiwanese crowd to challenge the Tobacco Monopoly agents. As they fled one agent fired his gun into the crowd, killing one bystander. The crowd, which had already been harboring many feelings of frustration from unemployment, inflation and corruption of the Nationalist Government, reached its breaking point. The crowd protested to both the police and the gendarmes, but was mostly ignored.

The 228 Massacre began on February 27, 1947 and was violently suppressed by the KMT-led Republic of China government and resulted in the massacre of numerous civilians, beginning on February 28. Estimates of the number of deaths vary from 10,000 to 30,000 or more. The incident marked the beginning of the Kuomintang’s White Terror period in Taiwan, in which thousands more inhabitants vanished, died, or were imprisoned.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident

So like… do you guys still feel good about living in Taiwan? After this incident and the many preceding incidents and news stories floating out there (and the impending unification)… this is definitely not an island with a bright future.

31

Are you saying this won’t happen in the USA?? They’re already ignoring the constitution. It’s just that things like Guantanamo bay doesn’t really register with most Americans so it doesn’t cause an uproar. Corruption is everywhere, both here, in China (they tend to be really bad), and in the US.

32

Wow, and that is in the context of a really lousy economy with starting wages lower than what the military is offering:

The military pays well later on and they (used to?) be a able to get out with pension after just 15 years or so. Obviously base pay is too low now to be able to attract people

33

However promotion to PFC is automatic… you become PFC after 6 months of service.

I heard some people talk about rioting… I hope this doesn’t lead to another martial law.

34

[quote=“Taiwan Luthiers”]You know they should probably get rid of a bunch of generals. There are more generals than fighter pilots and Taiwan doesn’t need that many generals. Why can’t they make the military more serious and disciplined? I mean I’ve seen training for volunteer soldiers and compared to what I’ve heard about boot camp in the US, it is a joke. In the US they actually had to make the training tough to weed people out but for some reason Taiwan can’t seem to get people to join…

If the military is so useless maybe they should disband the army altogether and keep the air force and navy.[/quote]

The generals go on and retire in China. From the top down, there is little commitment to quality, discipline and patriotism.

One of the military investigators in charge said they wouldn’t allow mafiosi in the Army, as this incident reveals many links between how local mafias behave and the kinds of goings on that go inside the barracks.

Now the military is covering its tracks and ordering the press to stand down. This is going to get nastier before it gets better.

35

[quote=“Icon”]
Now the military is covering its tracks and ordering the press to stand down. This is going to get nastier before it gets better.[/quote]

Last night Chief military prosecutor, Major Chao, said that only one person, one of the guards of the detention barrack, is responsible for the death of army corporal Hung Chung-chiu (洪仲丘). The military and Ma administration think that the whole thing will pass in a few weeks. Maybe they are right. They can create another scandal, another hot topic, to turn public attention to it.

36

Cultures that are based on guilt, rather than shame tend to produce at least a few whistle blowers (e.g. Edward Snowden).

I agree with you that 人性本惡 human nature is evil, though. It’s through education and inculcation that it changes.

Also, not saying that atrocities committed against any living being is good… but… at least ‘Murica ain’t doin’ it to their own people.

[quote=“Taiwan Luthiers”]However promotion to PFC is automatic… you become PFC after 6 months of service.

I heard some people talk about rioting… I hope this doesn’t lead to another martial law.[/quote]

It very well may… just like the 228 Massacre.

However, with today’s information interconnectedness, things would play out differently. Those who intend to implement martial law would have to be quite a bit more careful.

37

[quote=“shawn_c”]
I agree with you that 人性本惡 human nature is evil, though. It’s through education and inculcation that it changes.[/quote]

I think the truth is people will do what they think benefits them. Without education of a good concept of how a well run society is beneficial to all people and thus benefits one’s own interest, people will do what they think will generate most benefit in the short term. In the case of Fan and other officiers in this case, they feel like the rules don’t apply to them. They also can careless about the society.

38

[quote=“shawn_c”]
I agree with you that 人性本惡 human nature is evil, though. It’s through education and inculcation that it changes.
.[/quote]

So you guys have taken sixiangshi. How can you not agree with Mengzi??? Blasphemy!

39

Public anger is getting momentum from the cover-ups by the military higher-ups.

40

Taiwanese soldiers were missing, killed, or reportedly committed suicide in the ROC military in a suspiciously large number. It is estimated 500 per year. Most of these lost lives are Taiwanese not Chinese mainlanders. This is an implicit ethnic cleansing. Should the US be responsible partially for that? Yes, I think so. Without the US support, ROC is incapable of such atrocity.