Zain Dean conviction--fatal hit & run case PART II

[quote=“Super Hans”]Even so, justice and the apportioning of guilt should be black and white and clear-cut, regardless of cultural etiquette. Level of guilt and the harshness of the sentence should not depend on another person’s opinion of whether somebody feels remorse or not.
It should depend on clear-cut evidence, without which there should be not conviction in any case.
Again, my problem here, regardless of faults in Zain’s story, is that the continuity of what questionable evidence they do have is broken, pasted over and fixed and this shoul;d not happen in a court of law.[/quote]

Should is a modal verb expressing how YOU see things. Sorry to say the country you live in does not have the level of justice you think it should have. You either have to try to do something about it, or you have to learn how to operate within it. Or you have to look at how justice in other countries REALLY works.

Tell the families of the 3 lads killed in the riots here last summer about how justice should work. All three dead. All three drivers named and found. ZERO convictions.

[quote=“Super Hans”]Even so, justice and the apportioning of guilt should be black and white and clear-cut, regardless of cultural etiquette. Level of guilt and the harshness of the sentence should not depend on another person’s opinion of whether somebody feels remorse or not.
It should depend on clear-cut evidence, without which there should be not conviction in any case.
Again, my problem here, regardless of faults in Zain’s story, is that the continuity of what questionable evidence they do have is broken, pasted over and fixed and this shoul;d not happen in a court of law.[/quote]

Plenty of people in western countries are convicted on circumstantial evidence as well. Zain admitted driving the car home drunk. The court believes he did so before the accident. After all Zain was so out of it even by his own statements it’s clearly possible he was driving at the time of the accident. He contradicted himself on TV saying he never drove the car home that night but on here admitted he did.

Trying to destroy the car he knew was in an accident… what does that say in itself. Regardless of any cost to repair as an excuse to trash the car, he knew it had been in an accident and tried to avoid having his car traced to the accident. Not to ask the KTV for repair cost because he wanted to have some invest in a business… does that look reasonable to the ordinary person. Even if the car was valued at 100K it’s not money one willingly throws away.

No, should expresses obligation or duty.

No. I live in a country that does not have the level of integrity required to follow its own laws. Should in this case means what the courts are required to do to remain true to their own legal system.
Or is my opinion that they should do this somehow flawed?

It is difficult to reside in a country in which laws are merely grey areas, which are throwbacks from decades of martial law and corrupt governance; and where there were even cases of trial by proxy. There has been very little reform over the past decade to reverse this.

I have a fair idea of how justice in other countries works, but how on earth does this become relevant to this case?

I don’t know anything about this case to comment, and I also don’t know how strong the evidence is against them. However, I still maintain that there needs to be proof beyond all reasonable doubt that a crime has been committed for one to be guilty. If the police and the courts are inept enough not to supply the required, faithful evidence in order to secure a conviction, then that is a system failure which is very unfortunate for the victims. However, on the other hand, why should somebody who is truly not guilty have to take the consequences for this system failure?

[quote=“Super Hans”]
I don’t know anything about this case to comment, and I also don’t know how strong the evidence is against them. However, I still maintain that there needs to be proof beyond all reasonable doubt that a crime has been committed for one to be guilty. If the police and the courts are inept enough not to supply the required, faithful evidence in order to secure a conviction, then that is a system failure which is very unfortunate for the victims. However, on the other hand, why should somebody who is truly not guilty have to take the consequences for this system failure?[/quote]

Then according to your logic, hit and run could never be prosecuted. Or do you mean that ANY crime not recorded on videotape should never make it to court?

In cases like this, the burden of proof HAS to lie with the accused to prove he wasn’t at the wheel of his vehicle.

No, should expresses obligation or duty.

[/quote]

No. SHOULD expresses personal obligation or duty.

No, should expresses obligation or duty.

[/quote]

No. SHOULD expresses personal obligation or duty.[/quote]

Should is a lousy word. As an attorney, I have often instructed my Taiwanese colleagues to avoid using it, due to lack of clarity.

[quote=“Mother Theresa”]

Should is a lousy word. As an attorney, I have often instructed my Taiwanese colleagues to avoid using it, due to lack of clarity.[/quote]
So how’s sarcasm working out for you?

[quote=“jimipresley”][quote=“Mother Theresa”]

Should is a lousy word. As an attorney, I have often instructed my Taiwanese colleagues to avoid using it, due to lack of clarity.[/quote]
So how’s sarcasm working out for you?[/quote]

Should I understand that remark? :eh:

[Maybe I shouldn’t do drive-by postings while busy with other matters.]

Well then according to this logic, then anyone at all driving a car can be tried for any hit and run, and it is up to the random driver to prove that they didn’t hit the person and run away.
Evidence doesn’t just consist of CCTV recordings.
Tyre residue, paint traces, clothing contact, steering wheel prints, witness statements, impact force investigation, the layering of saliva/spittle trace on steering wheel - all this is not CSI stuff. This evidence is easy to obtain and readily available, and can be used to present evidence to the prosecution. As far as I am aware, nothing like this was submitted. The Taiwanese police force has the capability to undertake these methods of evidence gathering if it wants to.
Cha Bu Dou…

So for hit and run cases, you prefer the notion of innocent until proven guilty?

For me, it is not whether Zain was at the wheel of his car or not. It is the fact that there is clearly no evidence to show that he was.

Well the only people who count are the judges and they made a different judgement. There is enough evidence to believe he was driving the car. He drove the home pissed as a newt who could barely walk or remember anything. The judges accepted that Zain was driving at the time of the accident based we can say on circumstantial evidence. The KTV driver denied he was driving the car at time of the accident and he wasn’t drunk was he? No evidence proves the KTV driver was at the wheel at the time of the accident.

I find this whole case so sad. A person died, and that should be the most important thing.

The morale of the story is that if you drink, the car keys stay in your pocket, end of story.

Admitting to driving while drunk - that would make the case a hard one to win.

Pointing out the police being corrupt and the media is on you might be true, however when they are the part of the system deciding your fate, it is downright dumb.

Now you are being obtuse. The point is that when a particular car is identified as causing a death, it is reasonable to assume that the owner is inside it and has control of it – unless he can demonstrate otherwise.

Why?

I can think off-hand of 8 people who I regularly permit to drive my car, and all of them have driven the car at one point or another with me inside it as a passenger.
I’ll tell you a true story. Back in the day when I lived in the old country, there was a guy who got himself insurance to drive any vehicle. He had a simple, part time money making scheme: He gave out business cards out to local pubs advertising that if a person had driven to a bar and drunk too much, the driver could call him, he’d turn up on his bicycle and drive the drinker home, saving him, the drinker, the hassle of having to fetch his car the next day. He’d then ride back home on his bike.
This was all great.
However, one day, he spun someones car into a wall. Then he buggered off on his bike, leaving the drunk with the car. Of course, the police arrived and the drunk was arrested for drink driving, but upon interview at the police station was charged only with being drunk in charge, as through the process of interview there was not enough evidence to place him behind the wheel. Upon a thorough police investigation, he was let off. The real driver was arrested and charged with leaving the scene of an accident and he was also in trouble for causing or permitting somebody to be drunk in charge of a motor vehicle.
(For the record in the UK, anyone who owns a vehicle and is drunk is considered “drunk in charge”, as they have constructive use of that vehicle - even if they are not with that vehicle).

Now, to anyone who turns up at the scene it would look like the guy mentioned above was the driver, but it was still the onus of the police to look into the alleged driver’s account of the situation and collect the evidence, and on further investigation his account of the events turned out to be true.
If, during the accident, somebody had been killed or injured, the man in the passenger seat will have had no legal responsibility at all as he was not the driver.

If we apply the above case with the case concerning Mr. Dean, we have virtually the same situation, with the following physical evidence:

Mr. Dean made use of a valet service.
The video evidence shows Mr.Dean in the passenger seat leaving a KTV type place.
There is an accident involving Mr. Dean’s car.
Mr. Dean is with the vehicle at the time of the accident.
The valet driver returns to the KTV joint within minutes (and within walking distance) of the accident.

Without (honest) witness statements you can’t determine who was the driver at the time of the accident.

So did Mr. Dean. Why wasn’t the KTV driver then forced to face trial in the same way Mr. Dean was?

We don’t know that, as the KTV driver wasn’t tested at the time. Neither was Mr. Dean.

No evidence, aside from witness testimonies, shows that Mr. Dean was behind the wheel.

Based on circumstantial evidence, they could also place the KTV driver behind the wheel of the car. It works both ways.
Also, if the courts were that interested in justice, a person allowing another to be in charge of a car whilst they are drunk should be facing jail time if their actions lead to another person being killed or injured. I’m sure the courts could pull a charge out of a hat for this if they wanted to.

The burden of proof lies with the accuser. Period.

You’re wrong, Chris.

In criminal cases, the prosecution must show that the defendant is guilty before a jury may convict. If the prosecution satisfies this burden, the defendant must try to show the existence of certain facts that support a defense, such as an insanity plea, or, as monkey pointed out above in connection with the present case, ZD must show that ZD was not at the wheel of his car when his cart struck the deceased.

Look at the Travon Martin - George Zimmerman case… The prosecution has enough evidence to prove that GZ killed TM. But, GZ is now going to try to establish certain facts that give rise to his legal defense, i.e., self-defense. If GZ can show that he was entitled to defend himself, the case against him will likely be dismissed. Otherwise, the case will go to trial and the prosecution will try to show that GZ murdered TM and GZ will try to show that he was entitled to the legal defense of self-defense.

[quote=“Super Hans”]The valet driver returns to the KTV joint within minutes (and within walking distance) of the accident.

Without (honest) witness statements you can’t determine who was the driver at the time of the accident.

Based on circumstantial evidence, they could also place the KTV driver behind the wheel of the car. It works both ways.
Also, if the courts were that interested in justice, a person allowing another to be in charge of a car whilst they are drunk should be facing jail time if their actions lead to another person being killed or injured. I’m sure the courts could pull a charge out of a hat for this if they wanted to.[/quote]

Well from the KTV you cannot walk to anywhere near the accident in a short time. Try walking it and see if you can do it under 25 minutes one way let alone return. Certainly not from where Mr Dean says he asked the KTV valet to get out of his car. It was not possible for the KTV valet to have been back at the KTV by walking in a few minutes from anywhere close to the accident let alone from where Mr Dean claims near Taipei 101. So if you accept the fact the valet did arrive back within say 5 mintues of leaving then he could not have been driving at the time of the accident. A human can only walk say 4km an hour so to have left in a car then walked back in 5 mins, the distance would have been less then 1 km, far away from the accident.

Notwithstanding the fact there is a video of the accident itself of Deans car hitting the newspaper deliveryman and killing him. The fact that Mr Dean left the KTV as a passenger and then drives the final part of the journey home himself leaves open to the question that if he says he cannot recollect the accident how does Mr Dean even know who was driving at the time? His own statement makes it perfectly plausible that he was actually too drunk to know when he let the KTV driver out of the car, which we know he did. Then saying he didnt want to ask for the car to be repaired or ask for compensation from the KTV? Nah just trash the car and hope nobody notices it. He was more interested in a business investment from one of his KTV drinking buddies. After all Taiwanese are lazy and useless shits, as described by other forumosans and it was just too bad for Zain Dean a retired cop saw the car and called it in just before it was about to be crunched metal in Wugu. Dean had no intention of making it known to the cops his car had been in an accident. He would have left the country and nobody would have been the wiser.

Yes the valet maybe should not have got out of the car of the guy who owns it, who didnt recognize him and told him to get out so he could drive himself home, shitfaced as he was. Drunk people can become quite violent when put in situations like this where they fnd some unknown driving their car.

Now if there is only one person in the car ( on video) at that time in the drivers seat at the time of the accident and no passenger then who do you think that is?

So its nice to know that you think that even if he was at the wheel of his car when a person was killed shouldnt be convicted because you think there is no evidence to support that.

Wow.

It seems like the evidence is working against Dean, if it is true there was only one person in the car during the accident as shown on camera (Edit: It is not true.)

No matter if he is guilty or innocent, I feel sorry for him. Hard time in Taiwan is hard time where prisoners don’t have air condition, where they pretty much have to pay for everything, and where they’ll work for pennies making joss sticks.

At least it ain’t Thailand where 50 or 60 people share a room.

Here’s what I think we would need in the way of knowledge (either by possessing it ourselves or by having access to a person who possessed it) to be able to have truly informed opinions about this case (and we might need more than this):

(1) thorough fluency in both English and Chinese (and especially Chinese, and thorough fluency would imply a high level of literacy)

(2) familiarity with ROC criminal law, criminal procedure, and evidence law, both prescriptive (that is, as the law says it should be practiced) and descriptive (as it actually is practiced)

(3) knowledge of jurisprudence and of the role, if any, of jurisprudence (I’m aware that the ROC has a continental legal system, with, in principle at least, heavy reliance on codal articles, but I’m also aware of a doctrine called jurisprudence constante, not that I know whether that doctrine is followed here) in the interpretation of law, including:

(a) knowledge of jurisprudence about jurisprudence, which would include

(i) knowledge that would enable us to assess the weight of what higher courts say–if they say anything–about a given law; that is, whether what they say is binding on lower courts, or merely guiding, or of little effect, or a mix or stew of the three

(4) the existence of, access to, and familiarity with transcripts of all hearings concerning this case, which would imply the ability to read and understand them, and especially the ability to read them in light of all the pertinent laws and to recognize any issues that the transcripts might present

(5) the existence of, access to, and familiarity with all other documents (including motions, memoranda, appellate briefs, etc.) pertinent to the case, whether an official part of the record or not

(6) the existence of and access to evidence, or even evidence of evidence, and the ability to analyze it, which would imply not only knowledge of evidence law and of the effect of various kinds of evidence in the courts here but also

(a) knowledge of issues of forensic science and forensic technology and their possible bearing on the case, and knowledge of methods of getting evidence, including methods, if any, of compelling parties or persons to produce evidence

(7) knowledge of the mechanics of the appellate process here

(8) a pretty fair amount of knowledge of the history of the law here (using the term history loosely so as to include the personal experiences of attorneys) as it exists and is practiced here, especially criminal law and other laws that can apply to criminal cases

(9) knowledge of the extent, if any, to which notions of due process apply in criminal cases here, how they apply, when they apply, and when they don’t apply

(10) some knowledge of police procedures here, both prescriptive and descriptive, including

(a) at least some practical knowledge of the specific police division in question

(11) some practical knowledge of the prosecutorial team involved in the case

(12) some practical knowledge of the judges involved in the case

The above list is not necessarily an exclusive one.

In other words, at least one of the posters on this board would probably have to be–or somehow be the equivalent of–a very good, very sharp, very intelligent ROC criminal defense attorney, seasoned in the courtroom, in the criminal practice in general, in the practical legal landscape, and in the books, and with about, say, twenty years’ experience in the practice of criminal law here, preferably all of it in Taipei. And this attorney, or his or her equivalent, would have to be willing to go to the trouble to study the case.

I really wish we had someone like that to explain things to us, but since I don’t think we do, I don’t think we can get a very good idea of what’s going on here.

I will give this much of an opinion, though: whatever may be required here for proving the driving element of a deewee, grafting it onto a homicide doesn’t sound like a good idea.