Is there a difference between a Zen dialogue and a non sequitur?
Spatula.
I don’t quite follow.
I’ve gradually come to understand that true enlightenment can only be a sudden process.
After all, could conception be gradual?
You seem to be laboring under the misconception that Zen emphasizes spontaneous utterances, perhaps in conjunction with antinomian behavior. But most of the Buddhist organizations in Taiwan have Chan lineages. And as for Japanese Zen, did you know there’s a cheat book that gives all the classical koans (gong an, “public case”) with…the answers?! (Or perhaps I should say, “ideal responses.”) There is, and it’s been translated into English as something like 100 Zen Koans With Answers. Most “Zen Masters” in Japan are the sons of older Zen Masters, who have to pass these tests in order to get their certification and inherit the family business.
Hmm…I’m not sure it can be said that most Taiwan Buddhist orgs have Chan lineages, no offense.
It’s such a mishmash (and pleasantly so) of Daoist hybrids, Hokkien Kuan Yin schools, folk religion hybrids, and the well-thriving Tibetan and Theravadin scenes, in addition to those calling themselves Chan, that I don’t think one can really say–well, much of anything definitive about Taiwanese Buddhism, at least not with out a 10-year research project, lol.
I think any competent Zen master would class this as a mere non sequitur…
A Zen dialogue makes you go, “hmmmm”.
A non sequitur makes you go, “What?”
The first one is thought provoking and enlightening. The latter is merely confusing.
What I mean is, the whole idea that Zen centers on non-sequitors / liberative utterances is a romantic distortion of what the actual religion is like.
Tang Wuzong suppressed various sects of Chinese Buddhism for being parasitical, but spared Chan on the grounds that its monks worked. Thus today, most Chinese Buddhist groups are technically in the Chan lineage, even if their beliefs lean more towards Pure Land or what have you. Taiwan’s major Buddhist leaders (the late Masters Yin Shun and Sheng Yen, Hsing Yun, Wei Chueh, Hsin Tao, Cheng Yen) have Chan lineages.
[quote=“Zla’od”]What I mean is, the whole idea that Zen centers on non-sequitors / liberative utterances is a romantic distortion of what the actual religion is like.
Tang Wuzong suppressed various sects of Chinese Buddhism for being parasitical, but spared Chan on the grounds that its monks worked. Thus today, most Chinese Buddhist groups are technically in the Chan lineage, even if their beliefs lean more towards Pure Land or what have you. Taiwan’s major Buddhist leaders (the late Masters Yin Shun and Sheng Yen, Hsing Yun, Wei Chueh, Hsin Tao, Cheng Yen) have Chan lineages.[/quote]
So you think it would be correct to also identify the Catholic Church as the legitimate representatives of Jesus’ thought?
Zen Buddhism was revived (another covert CIA operation) in the 50s, to keep potential “liberal” protestors quiescent.
Well, expecting iconoclastic behavior from everyday Zen practice is a bit like expecting ordinary Christianity to be all about turning the other cheek. Possibly neither religion does justice to the teachings of their respective founders. In any case, it would be a bold historian indeed who would take the rhetoric of continuity very seriously. But the original question seemed to refer to Zen as it is practiced today, not some ideal version.
Well, expecting iconoclastic behavior from everyday Zen practice is a bit like expecting ordinary Christianity to be all about turning the other cheek. Possibly neither religion does justice to the teachings of their respective founders. In any case, it would be a bold historian indeed who would take the rhetoric of continuity very seriously. But the original question seemed to refer to Zen as it is practiced today, not some ideal version.[/quote]
The OP was: “Is there a difference between a Zen dialogue and a non sequitur?”
Seems to be fairly timeless and independent of reference.
If someone asks “Is there a God?”, does this mean in fact"
“Is there a God as commonly worshipped in the Catholic Church today where the Pope is recognized as his chief earthly representative?”
If I was the Pope I would beat you with a stick.
That’s…interesting. I interpret the phrase “Zen dialogue” as time- (and culture-) bound. Even if we ignore the fact that “Zen” is Japanese (and therefore refers to a setting no earlier than the 12th century), the classical koan / gong’an collections only go back a few centuries before that, while the school itself seems to have arisen during the Tang Dynasty.
If someone asks “Is there a God?” it is not entirely clear what they mean. The word “God” is vague.
[quote=“Zla’od”]That’s…interesting. I interpret the phrase “Zen dialogue” as time- (and culture-) bound. Even if we ignore the fact that “Zen” is Japanese (and therefore refers to a setting no earlier than the 12th century), the classical koan / gong’an collections only go back a few centuries before that, while the school itself seems to have arisen during the Tang Dynasty.
If someone asks “Is there a God?” it is not entirely clear what they mean. The word “God” is vague.[/quote]
Clearly you’re not worth beating with a stick.
All right, I give up:
(ahem)
“Rosebud.”
banana