But seriously Britain ought to rethink this through.[/quote]
Let the dust settle and cooler heads prevail. Sarkozy should be coming into power in France in 2017. He hates Juncker, pro UK and hyper critical of undemocratic nature of Brussels. Hollande is ideological, as is Merkel. When the dynamic changes and people stop being so petty, we will work out an arrangement that suits both sides. I hope the EU can reform drastically and we can come back into the fold. As it is, its just not working for the UK
[quote=“OrangeOrganics”]
My feelings were that the EU is a deeply flawed endeavor but we should stay and push for reform.[/quote]
It doesn’t work that way. You don’t push FOR reform, you them them TO reform by making them pay a price for what they’ve been doing. Brexit is punishment.
And if it doesn’t work as behavior modification, then it will work as escape. Worth it either way. But staying would never have worked.
Right Rowland. The power dynamics are interesting. The same as any breakup; romantic, business or creative. You walk away, stand your ground and re-evaluate. HHII is right that Therasa May in control might be a nightmare. I hope Michael Gove wins, but I don’t place much trust in any of them.
Nothing new there, usual exaggeration from the media. The banks aren’t in good shape…and…nothing new. They will be bailed out if they get worse.
Irish banks were in 5 times worse shape and they got bailed out and the country moved on. If you want to post up dodgy economic news there’s plenty of the same from the UK. Again…not very illuminating.
Which shows it’s a Europe-wide phenomenon, and not exclusively happening in the UK. Two weeks ago it was all:
“haha the UK is in trouble without the EU.”
Now look. I’m not anti-Europe anyway… the whole of Europe is having a bad time, maybe because of the EU. Maybe they timed all this bad news til after the Brexit to blame the UK. Maybe they wanted us in so we could keep subsidizing their ailing banking sector.
…again…old news.
There’s no such thing as ‘one Europe’ the EU is a club of 28 soon to be 27 nations.
The whole of Europe having a bad time is also a lie.
Some of those countries are very strong economically MUCH stronger than the Uk. Germany is an economic powerhouse with positive trade account it can digest the problems of Deutsch bank with relative ease.
[quote]The spending power of Germans is being boosted by record high employment, rising real wages and ultra-low borrowing costs, making domestic demand the most important growth driver.
BOOMING JOB MARKET
In another positive sign for domestic demand, German unemployment fell more than expected in June and the jobless rate in Europe’s biggest economy remained at a record low.[/quote]
Some countries are well on their way back from economic low points like Ireland. Dublin is a boomtown right now PRECISELY because it’s an EU member. Countries like Holland could do very well for themselves taking over much of city of london’s financial business. Spain is also starting to do much better. Germany will take even more market share in the EU for vehicles and infrastructure investments.
Besides the argument is not only about GDP but welfare of the people. Contrary to popular belief in UK the UK’s social programs and salaries aren’t that high , they only compare well to eastern and Southern Europe. I’ve watched documentaries on younger people in Uk who are on social welfare for one reason or another and they live on literally peanuts. Their measly dole and allowances are handed out by corporations and it gets cut off for the slightest ‘non-compliance’.
No wonder so many Brits are moving to Ireland these days to avail themselves of our welfare!
The UK is actually in a really difficult economic position now with 7% annual capital deficits and the would be prime ministers moronic statements aren’t helping. But you chose to ignore all that and go for nationalist chest thumping instead. The poor British citizens will get poorer and they will not be able to avail themselves of generous welfare programs in other countries such as Ireland, France , Sweden etc!
Oh the irony!. Yes, you made some good points. I was on the dole for a while and it sucks. You have money for Tesco value pasta and tinned tomatoes and that’s about it…
Of course Germany is a powerhouse- they got that way by after the crisis by using the ECB to screw everybody else.
Many other northern Europeans went along, worsening the situation by dealing with it as a morality play rather than an economic problem.
Note the US didn’t say “those feckless people in Florida and Nevada deserve to be punished”; the government just tried to deal with the situation. (Economy-wise, Greece to the EU is roughly equivalent to Iowa to the US. Can you imagine a “crisis” rocking America because of economic problems in Iowa?)
Britain is different- the polices that have been hurting those unemployed people in the poorer parts were brought in by the Conservatives, not the EU. If you want to get rid of immigrants, and say so, fine. Believing that the Tories are going to use all these great windfalls to replenish the NHS (that they’ve been dedicated to cutting since Thatcher) or will use them to help poorer areas rather than for tax cuts for the wealthy in the South is pure fantasy, and any mouthpiece who pushed it deserves to be scorned.
[quote=“MikeN”]Of course Germany is a powerhouse- they got that way by after the crisis by using the ECB to screw everybody else.
Many other northern Europeans went along, worsening the situation by dealing with it as a morality play rather than an economic problem.
Note the US didn’t say “those feckless people in Florida and Nevada deserve to be punished”; the government just tried to deal with the situation. (Economy-wise, Greece to the EU is roughly equivalent to Iowa to the US. Can you imagine a “crisis” rocking America because of economic problems in Iowa?)
.[/quote]
I would agree with a lot of that. The morality bit was way overdone. Bail out the banks but not the little people…was not nice to see. German banks did find a lot of the developments in places like Ireland, Spain and Greece and were bailed out through the back door of nationalizing bank debt in other countries. But it wasn’t just Germans pushing this, Timothy Geisner US treasury secretary made sure that was the case too.
Much like brexit ‘we are where we are’ and need to make the most of it and look to the future as that ship has sailed. It doesn’t make sense to throw the baby out with the dirty bathwater.
The way the Tories and UKIP exploited fears about immigration make me more than a bit queasy, especially when you look underneath the hood and realize the problems had nothing to do with the steering wheel imported from Poland but the engine block assembled in Hull!
(Put the last reference in there as I was shocked to see Sunderland voted for exit even though many of the towns job depend on access to the EU market…crazy stuff)
Speaking as a maker I have to say it should be clear by now it’s a fool’s errand trying to endlessly scold us into taking financial responsibility for takers’ endless financial problems for two reasons. One is we’ll just never get why their profligacy and bad choices should be our responsibility, no matter how much you scold us. The second reason is we’re just, by definition, smarter than you are so no matter how many schemes you come up with we’ll always be two steps ahead of you. The best you’ll be able to manage is a draw. I’d recommend coming up with a better long-term plan but I’m not even sure takers do plans, do they?
Give the devil its due; Germany makes great cars. Engineering matters. They’ve earned prosperity. Enough of an economic surplus from automation and they’ll even earn the right to indulge in the luxury of a welfare state - something Venezuela and Cuba have notably not earned.
That doesn’t excuse their wishful thinking w.r.t. Europe and internationalism. Capitalism and technology made a prosperous Germany, not progressive fantasies. This EU business is just imperialism in disguise, and that’s the only good thing about it. If only it were honest imperialism, it could then jettison its various toxic illusions. The borrower is slave to the lender, but that doesn’t make the lender master. In the case of bad loans, no one is on the driver’s seat, and the car is headed for a cliff.
Any gains in the more culturally backward parts of Europe are not sustainable. If you think the EU bailouts and welfare are doing any real and lasting good then you’re a sucker. Ireland’s capital is always Dublin, but that’s not going to make them rich. Neither will making their capital Brussels.
Ah yes Rowland the sky is falling Ireland, Holland, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Finland, Czech , Poland …we are all doomed lol. Such terrible places to live with impoverished populations that all subsist on food stamps. Woe is them.
You forget history…all of our countries have been through a lot worse times and most of our countries have never had it better than now, all things considered.
Rowland there is a place you WILL love though…it’s called lala land.
[quote=“headhonchoII”][quote=“MikeN”]Of course Germany is a powerhouse- they got that way by after the crisis by using the ECB to screw everybody else.
Many other northern Europeans went along, worsening the situation by dealing with it as a morality play rather than an economic problem.
Note the US didn’t say “those feckless people in Florida and Nevada deserve to be punished”; the government just tried to deal with the situation. (Economy-wise, Greece to the EU is roughly equivalent to Iowa to the US. Can you imagine a “crisis” rocking America because of economic problems in Iowa?)
.[/quote]
I would agree with a lot of that. The morality bit was way overdone. Bail out the banks but not the little people…was not nice to see. German banks did find a lot of the developments in places like Ireland, Spain and Greece and were bailed out through the back door of nationalizing bank debt in other countries. But it wasn’t just Germans pushing this, Timothy Geisner US treasury secretary made sure that was the case too.
Much like brexit ‘we are where we are’ and need to make the most of it and look to the future as that ship has sailed. It doesn’t make sense to throw the baby out with the dirty bathwater.
The way the Tories and UKIP exploited fears about immigration make me more than a bit queasy, especially when you look underneath the hood and realize the problems had nothing to do with the steering wheel imported from Poland but the engine block assembled in Hull!
(Put the last reference in there as I was shocked to see Sunderland voted for exit even though many of the towns job depend on access to the EU market…crazy stuff)[/quote]
Immigration is an issue in these places. It is. The Tories never mentioned immigration, neither did Labour. This was the issue. People felt ignored. Toreis looooooovvvvvvvvveeeeee EU immigration and love cheap labour and cheap Poles to do building work for them. The problem was already there. If it makes you queasy, go visit. UK is similar to Ireland in many ways, but Ireland has net migration and has for ever. Its not the same. Half of the UK isnt just racist.
The problem is the EU. Its not fit for purpose and Juncker and chums are tyrannical. All they had to do was negotiate with UK over movement of labour and we would have remained a member. There is no logical reason why entry to the single market must be linked to free movement of labour, only ideological reasons. This is no good. If the EU wants to be governed by ideology, its done for. It should be working around the needs of the members rather than acting like school bullies.
Immigration is an issue in some places perhaps, but even in places with fewer immigrants in the North they still voted ‘out’ (Scotland voted in) leads me to feel it’s perception and societal line being spun as much as reality on the ground. It was a perception fed from the (London and Murdoch) tabloids and from (London based) politicians as ‘immigrants are taking your jobs and your welfare’ insteAd of ‘the economy and the infrastructure is fucked round here why does London get everything’ (I fly though Manchester airport sometimes it’s a complete kip given its supposed to be UKs second city).
If social welfare and regional economic policies had been pursued I doubt immigration would have been a rallying cry of the disaffected. Social welfare had been pared back to the bone and job and wage growth was minimal in many areas, immigrants were simply a lot more convenient to blame problems on than admitting ‘our lot have abandoned you a longtime ago…’.
The political system in the UK needs reform as much as the EU needs reform. A prime minister , to satisfy his own political needs, declared a single issue In or Out referendum when it wasn’t necessary. There was no process or consensus behind it. Then a bunch of competitors who went to the same exclusive schools and universities jumped on it for their own ends.
The lack of proportional representation also doesn’t allow plurality of voices. It almost impossible for a third party to contend for government let alone a fourth , firth etc. The first past the post system is massively outdated and it allowed
The disaffected voices to be swept under the carpet until they could express their disaffection in the only way possible in the system of democracy they are governed under.
The Royal Family sit on top of it all and don’t contribute anything but take 100s of millions in income a year. How about asking the windsors or the duke who owns half of Kensington and Chelsea for a bit of spare cash eh?
The UK is still a classist society but sure it’s all those Europeans fault what with their immigrants and their pushy regulations and their ‘lack of democracy’. A monarchy with a House of Lords being ruled by the school of Eton is lecturing the EU on its ‘undemocratic ways’? The EU is tyrannical? Pot kettle black.
Ireland has had massive levels of immigration and emigration, there is probably no society like it in the world and it’s certainly possible things could change in the future, but the main difference between Irleand and the U.K., and something most British don’t realize, is that Ireland is a socialist state with strong support for social programs and income equality (although without some of the trimmings of Scandinavia). There’s also very little time or space given to xenophobic or racist views that for instance were promoted in the UK tabloids. Scotland is probably some way towards that society spectrum too.
Again blaming the EU for Dave and chums pushing a referendum on a complex issue is a bit much, even if I agree that the EU’s policy on full freedom of movement is also not something I completely agree with. Would I think pushing the nuclear button on the issue was wise…absolutely not!
Besides all this underneath it all there was as much English nationalist sentiment as anything else. English people want to feel like their running their country and a lot of older folks probably didn’t feel comfortable in the ‘brave new world’ changing around them. They don’t see much benefit from the idea of being European and don’t have much to lose from voting out being retired etc. I get that.
You present the EU with en fait accompli…what can the EU do now. I think the rest of the EU may benefit from more flexibility after UK leaves, but there are also voices pushing for even more integration. We live in interesting times.
I think Germany screwed up the Eurozone through austerity policies post-2008. You see, the way austerity policies harm the economy after a recession is
[color=#FF0000]I AM THE ALMIGHTY MAKER!!! LOWLY MINIONS, WORTHLESS CRAWLING WRETCHES, BLOOD-SUCKING PARASITES WHO SUSTAIN THEIR HAPLESS BEINGS SOLELY OFF MY STUPENDOUS CREATIVE POWER -TAKERS!!!- LOOK ON MY MAGNIFICENCE AND DESPAIR!!! THE DAY OF RECKONING IS AT HAND WHERE THERE WILL BE WEEPING AND WAILING AND GNASHING OF TEETH WHEN I WITHDRAW MY OMNIPOTENT FECUNDITY, AND ALL WILL PLUNGE INTO ENDLESS DARKNESS LIT ONLY BY THE FEEBLE FLAMES FROM BURNING WELFARE CHECKS[/color] :fume: :fume: :fume:
Uh, sorry , did you hear something? Where was I? Oh yeah, you see, austerity policies…
The problem was that the Germans never should have gone into monetary union with Greeks and other southern Europeans. They never should have kept throwing money at them. Everyone knew that they were never going to get the money back because deep down, everyone knew that the Greeks are different to the Germans and have a very different approach to all sorts of things. However, everyone is also really hooked on this idea that everyone is interchangeable, and so they got caught up in irrational exuberance driven by reading too much Francis Fukuyama. The Germans shouldn’t have given the Greeks money, but the Greeks also shouldn’t have taken it because they should have realised that they weren’t Germans, yet when it came to saving face, the Germans would insist that Greeks were Germans and would throw the Greeks under the bus rather than admit that they (the Germans) screwed up. Maybe these two were just right for each other in their denial of reality to each other and themselves.
