Does anyone actually believe in all that stuff?

[fruitloop]

@Mucha Man

If you don’t want me to say you are asking in bad faith then ask proper questions. Your flippancy is seriously annoying. Maybe at some point in your past you met a man who believed god was for bonobos and visited other planets but are you that daft not to see how the question without context would appear to others? No you aren’t that daft which is why the accusation stands. Deal with it.

Anyone who believes that god exists but isn’t for bonobos or other sentient beings, is seriously arrogant, not to mention uncritical. The belief that god is only for homo sapiens sapiens is akin to the belief that he’s only for the Israelites. Both are self-centric and therefore irrational (not looking at the bigger picture, believing one is at the centre of the universe), in this case anthropocentric.

You’re now the one either ridiculing the idea that god is for bonobos too. That or you’re suggesting that others may believe that it is a ridiculous suggestion. It is not a ridiculous question, and if people think it is or appears to be in bad faith, that tells us something about their belief system.

I recognised how my post might be interpreted, in my very first post. That’s why I said, “I’m not taking the piss.” If you think I am taking the piss, you’re calling me a liar, which as serious an accusation as it gets.

Within the first post, after the flippant starter, I went on to ask your “real questions”. Asking seemingly flippant questions is a way of testing the flexibility, imagination and attitude of people who answer. Challenging, perhaps. If you’re confident in your beliefs, have the intellectual flexibility EQ to correctly interpret the way my question was meant, this shouldn’t be a problem.

[quote=“Mucha Man”]Next time try something like this: “How does your religion square itself with evolution? Are there any texts that deal with whether earlier human species has souls or whether god has a personal relationship with other intelligent species that may exist on other planets?”[/quote]How does your religion square itself with evolution? That’s an old and boring question that’s been answered by believers long ago and the compatibility of religion and evolution is only doubted by extremists.

[quote=“Mucha Man”]“One of your religion’s core beliefs in that the son of God came to earth, died and ascended to heaven. Obviously I am a little skeptical of this. How does your religion explain supernatural events such as an ascension into Heaven? And where does Heaven stand in relationship to the physical world we know?”

You know. Real questions that might generate real answers.[/quote]
I prefer to ask children’s questions. They’re more illuminating. And they illustrate the intelligence and flexibility of mind of the answerer. If he went physically “up”, that means he went up and must have stopped somewhere or carried on forever. If ascension means something else, more metaphorical perhaps, so be it. Tell me about it.

I would note that I haven’t once (correct me if I’m wrong - I haven’t reread all my posts) indulged in ridiculing or name calling, personal attacks or insults.

[bob]

Joesox: What I want to know is “what” you believe in relation to supernatural events. Nobody has answered that question. Kind of odd don’t you think?

People believe in that kind of thing mostly because it was associated with a sense of belonging, authority, confidence, places of immense beauty (churches I think are frequently designed to suggest infinity) etc from an early age. It is emotional. Emotion over-rides reason. That appears to be what it actually is. That’s my theory.

If you or anybody else would be willing to put your beliefs out there to be examined we could at least make a start at determining whether it is correct.

My mistake was couching the ideas in somewhat antagonistic language from the start. I did that partly because I honestly thought I was preaching to the coverted here. It was definitely a mistake. If you are going to tell sonmeone that you think their belief system is delusional you should do it politely, especially if they are in some way friends of yours. To the extent though that I am required to respect people’s apparently delusional religious beliefs (as opposed to their right to hold the belief) I am being expected to accept something without judgement and that is something I definitley WON’T do. I understand that it is not productive to be judgemental with regards to things of no consequence, but some things are important. This is important. Religion is a massive force in the modern world and the more literally it is interpreted the more dangerous it becomes. It is entirely logical to ask what supernatural events people believe in and how they came to those beliefs.

If there is something difficult to undertand about this I’d be gobsmacked to hear what it was.

[cjc444]

How the hell can people who consider their intelligence to be at such great levels blindly state that religion is fake? How the fuck do you know? Seriously, in my younger days when I thought I knew everything I had the same thoughts as athesists, but then I grew up and realized that I know shit. So how the hell do you know what’s going to happen when yo’ ass is dead, how do you know that your’re not going to be sipping wine with your seven million virgins or simply giving juice to that apple tree or rotting in hell with Hitler or being that next pork chop I eat?

How are you so so sure of yourselves that you totally forget the fact that you don’t know shit when that day comes? And don’t give me that physics response. Hell just twenty years ago we were taught that dinosaurs flew to Jupiter and started a colony there, and now we KNOW that it was an asteroid and in twenty years we will find out that instead it was a virus, then… I think you get my point. To state a fact about something that is so vague to our simple minds is complete ignorance.

[NomNomTaiwan]

[quote=“bob”]Joesox: What I want to know is “what” you believe in relation to supernatural events. Nobody has answered that question. Kind of odd don’t you think?

People believe in that kind of thing mostly because it was associated with a sense of belonging, authority, confidence, places of immense beauty (churches I think are frequently designed to suggest infinity) etc from an early age. It is emotional. Emotion over-rides reason. That appears to be what it actually is. That’s my theory.

If you or anybody else would be willing to put your beliefs out there to be examined we could at least make a start at determining whether it is correct.
[/quote]

You keep saying “Nobody will answer me” “nobody will put themselves out there”…I feel like I keep answering questions…what is it that you are looking for? You’re testing your hypothesis…thats fine, youre an armchair anthropologist or pyschologist I guess…? I dont get why you keep saying “nobody” though.

This theory that you have is an old, old one that has been bounced around by anthropologists and sociologists for a long time. I think you might be kind of hitting on Victor Turners work, but honestly this is only a fraction of what scholars have come up with on religion and its purpose and there are volumes out there that would more completely cover the topic of “Why humans use religion”…Mary Douglas is a personal favorite of mine, but there are others that are a must to more fully understand the topic…even if their ideas are outdated and pretty much dead (i.e., E.E Pritchard who I’m pretty sure came off of Durkheim-ian theory)

[headhonchoII]

[quote=“cjc444”]How the hell can people who consider their intelligence to be at such great levels blindly state that religion is fake? How the fuck do you know? Seriously, in my younger days when I thought I knew everything I had the same thoughts as athesists, but then I grew up and realized that I know shit. So how the hell do you know what’s going to happen when yo’ ass is dead, how do you know that your’re not going to be sipping wine with your seven million virgins or simply giving juice to that apple tree or rotting in hell with Hitler or being that next pork chop I eat?

How are you so so sure of yourselves that you totally forget the fact that you don’t know shit when that day comes? And don’t give me that physics response. Hell just twenty years ago we were taught that dinosaurs flew to Jupiter and started a colony there, and now we KNOW that it was an asteroid and in twenty years we will find out that instead it was a virus, then… I think you get my point. To state a fact about something that is so vague to our simple minds is complete ignorance.[/quote]

Look dude God told me okay…he said son ‘this is fake shit’ and I woke up and there was this blinding light and an empty whiskey bottle that he left beside my bed.

[Charlie_Jack]

[quote]If you or anybody else would be willing to put your beliefs out there to be examined we could at least make a start at determining whether it is correct. [/quote] This is amazing.

[quote]You might not want to do this for a number of reasons but at some point the religious community owes it to us. We live with the results of their decsisions. They “owe” us.[/quote] This is breathtaking.

[cjc444]

Look dude God told me okay…he said son ‘this is fake shit’ and I woke up and there was this blinding light and an empty whiskey bottle that he left beside my bed.

Well I hope this isn’t the same God that taught you economics, if so we are all fuc’t.

[Jack_Burton]

@cjc444

Hell just twenty years ago we were taught that dinosaurs flew to Jupiter and started a colony there, and now we KNOW that it was an asteroid and in twenty years we will find out that instead it was a virus, then.

where did you goto school? man, and I thought my school was bad.

[cjc444]

Sarcasm my friend, sarcasm…

[Jack_Burton]

yea, i got that. it just wasn’t very good.

[cjc444]

[color=#008000]mod: no cross threading, please[/color]

[bob]

[quote=“NomNomTaiwan”][quote=“bob”]Joesox: What I want to know is “what” you believe in relation to supernatural events. Nobody has answered that question. Kind of odd don’t you think?

People believe in that kind of thing mostly because it was associated with a sense of belonging, authority, confidence, places of immense beauty (churches I think are frequently designed to suggest infinity) etc from an early age. It is emotional. Emotion over-rides reason. That appears to be what it actually is. That’s my theory.

If you or anybody else would be willing to put your beliefs out there to be examined we could at least make a start at determining whether it is correct.
[/quote]

You keep saying “Nobody will answer me” “nobody will put themselves out there”…I feel like I keep answering questions…what is it that you are looking for? You’re testing your hypothesis…thats fine, youre an armchair anthropologist or pyschologist I guess…? I don’t get why you keep saying “nobody” though. [/quote]

I didn’t say they were new ideas. And no, I have no idea what supernatural elements of whatever religion it is you follow that you belive are literally true. None? OK. We are in completely in agreement.

[bob]

Oh, I am trying to hunt down that passage in the Bible what says that if you want to be sure people grow up to be Christians you better get the message to them young otherwise you had no chance. Some of you are pretty knowledgable about the Bible so perhaps you know the exact passage? He expresses the idea a lot more eloquently than me, of course. Anyway, people can say whatever they like about Jesus but he was definitely a fine speaker and knew a lot about religion and no doubt.

[cjc444]

So bob, what’s your proof that there is no GOD?

[bob]

I am not required to prove that something doesn’t exist. And I never said that God didn’t exist anyway. What I said was that it’s delusional to believe he ever said anything or interfered in any way with the laws of physics.

[cjc444]

“law of physics” Are you so sure about that? Care to explain?

[bob]

No, not really.

[NomNomTaiwan]

[quote=“bob”][quote=“NomNomTaiwan”][quote=“bob”]Joesox: What I want to know is “what” you believe in relation to supernatural events. Nobody has answered that question. Kind of odd don’t you think?

People believe in that kind of thing mostly because it was associated with a sense of belonging, authority, confidence, places of immense beauty (churches I think are frequently designed to suggest infinity) etc from an early age. It is emotional. Emotion over-rides reason. That appears to be what it actually is. That’s my theory.

If you or anybody else would be willing to put your beliefs out there to be examined we could at least make a start at determining whether it is correct.
[/quote]

You keep saying “Nobody will answer me” “nobody will put themselves out there”…I feel like I keep answering questions…what is it that you are looking for? You’re testing your hypothesis…thats fine, youre an armchair anthropologist or pyschologist I guess…? I don’t get why you keep saying “nobody” though. [/quote]

I didn’t say they were new ideas. And no, I have no idea what supernatural elements of whatever religion it is you follow that you belive are literally true. None? OK. We are in completely in agreement.[/quote]

I guess the questions being asked keep changing, or just arent being stated clear enough. It seems like this thread goes from existence of G-d, to Biblical literalism, to “supernatural elements”…

I guess you missed the post where I said I’m basically a reform Jew…and that I believe that G-d exists (thats not supernatural? thats not one of your questions?) Do you want me to go through every element of the religion and the Torah and say what I do and do not believe in? Or do you want me to explain why I am apart of religion…you have a post where youre saying you want to prove if your theory is correct about why people participate in religion…is that your question?

I mentioned in a thread that I dont know if pillars of fire are real…I am not sure. I think that Moses really did receive the commandments, I am not sure how a world flood worked, I dont know if thats literal, possibly Noah’s account was just based on his perception, or maybe it was an old old, tale included that has been a myth of the Jewish people. I’m somewhere in the middle. Did I really believe that names were being sealed in the book of life during the High Holidays…yeah, I do believe that. I think prayers really do go to G-d, I think He answers them.

There. Now I have finally answered you!

Edited to change the tone of my final statement, it looked more snappy than I intended it to be!

[RobinTaiwan]

Why are you all getting angry, bitchy and rude to each other? It must be the full moon. Chill out people.

Look on the bright side. There are many things we all agree about.

In fact, religious and non-religious people hold very similar values on MANY levels. Take mutual respect, for example, it’s UNIVERSAL!

[Dr_McCoy]

You crazy.