Some numbers supporting that:
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/atrocities.html
The recent ongoing media circus creates impression that all the evil in the world is caused by those bloodthirsty fanatical believers.
In fact, more people were killed by well run secular regimes.[/quote]
As a consequence of people coming to think of dictators as GODS. See a pattern?
(OK, I am really out for the day)
Well, as to some of you, if I didnât know you before, I know you now, or I know as much as I need to know.
but science doesnât masquerade as religion. itâs mostly religious people who think that it does, because thatâs the way they look at the world and think that others should look at it that way too.
I donât care about Why we are here: itâs a moot question, unanswerable, and pointless, like much of ontology. Partly because it assumes that everything has a reason, when quite obviously, almost nothing does.
Totally agree (as you know), apart from the âpointlessâ bit. It has a point â a huge one â for many, many people, including many of my friends and even a relative or two (much to my chagrin, I might add). What the hell is wrong, exactly, for seeking, maybe not reason, maybe not logic, but most DEFINITELY a taproot into the daft, fucked up world that being human entails?
For someone like me? Who 'aint a scientist or a follower of any religion? Its peas in a pod, except the religious ones havenât got test-tubes and pipettes to back their assertions. Instead, they have thousands of years of passed-down information, much of it flawed â just like scientists, except the scientists only have few hundred years at most.
People say stuff like âdo people ACTUALLY believe in this stuff?â Damn, I say the same thing about scientists a lot of the time.
Iâm just here on this planet, trying to make some sense of it all and hoping like hell I donât fall off the edge of it (flat earth, of course, was a concept supported by MANY scientists at one time. Think about that.)
At the end of the day, its all just humans asking âwhy?â
I kind of side with science dudes, but hell, them religiosos have also come up with some pretty astounding stuff themselves. And I donât mean dinosaurs living alongside humans or any of that stuff.
Live and let live, no? And no, that isnât an invitation to discuss the crusades or the Mongol hordes or that daft bugger over there in Iran, either. Theyâre not religious in the way I sense it. Theyâre snake oil salesmen, nothing more.
Youâre doing it again! How rude!
Why not try something like: âPeople believe in a lot of things I simply cannot understand.â
Or: âPeople believe in a lot of things for reasons I donât have the intellectual capacity to grasp, so I just call them stupid or blind or brainwashed. Its dead easy!â[/quote]
I am going to look for threads where you are being your old over the top (being polite here) self and then interject with âHow rude!ââŚitâs going to be fun.
fair point, Man oâsand.
it may be a moot point to me, and I think it is to many others too, but the fact that they donât all think so has led to some wonderful philosophising and moral contemplation. Which has left us with some great codifications of behaviour that have helped keep the world on an even keel and have certainly contributed to the rise of civilisations of many kinds.
there is no universal morality, though, and claiming theirs to be the true morality is where some of the adherents have got stuck. (âThe only way to God is through Me.â No, Me!")
Heretics! The lot of you! Youâre all going to burn in Hell and suffer eternal Damnation! Yes! With a CAPITAL D!!!
Seriously, thoughâŚ
Why care what other people believe? If it makes them happy, so be it. I only discuss religion/belief systems etc with people who wish to discuss it with me (in an adult fashion). I never try to convince others of what I believe, and no one will convince me that Iâm wrong. Not that anyone could prove that there is no God and no afterlife, anyway.
Why would it bother you if I believed in God, that Christ died and rose from the dead on the third day? Why would it bother you if my wife believes in the teachings of Buddha, or that my in-laws go bai-bai for grandpa who died two years ago, believing it somehow makes a difference to his continued existence in their version of the afterlife?
And why care about someone who believes in nothing at all?
Some of my best friends are atheists or some derivative thereof (like Threadkiller, jimipresley etc), but I donât respect them any less because of it, or think theyâre crazy for not believing in something, anythingâŚ
When A-Gong died we all had to go to Pingtung. Now as many of you know, they keep the corpse around for a few days (in a refrigerated box of sorts with a glass viewing window to have a last look at the deceased), and family members come to bai-bai and pay their respects.
It runs totally against my beliefs to bow or pray to the dead, or communicate with them in any way, means or form, and several other things that Daoists and Buddhists do at funerals donât run with what I believe. However, seeing as how it was important to my family, I went before the altar, bowed my head and stood there quietly with my wife and MiL as they bai-baiâed. Whereâs the harm? They believe in something I find âweirdâ, but I respect what they believe.
So it should go for all belief systems, no matter how crazy it may sound to you personally. And whatever someone believes, again unless theyâre trying to force it down your throat, so what? Why care?
If humans are so prone to wage wars, with or without religious motives, maybe we should be discussing something else. A different thread title comes to mind. âDo you actually believe youâre any less fucked up than the rest of us?â 
[quote=âsandmanâ][quote] What the hell is wrong, exactly, for seeking, maybe not reason, maybe not logic, but most DEFINITELY a taproot into the daft, fucked up world that being human entails?
[/quote][/quote]
I really agree here! Well said.
Science is a provisional truth, religion is abstract. We use both, but were always just trying our best and never REALLY know. How will we ever? I know I am always speaking based off of the data I have right now the best data I can have, and that data can change, then you have to make adjustments. Really, its just living.
I personally believe religion gets down to the stuff science can never get intoâŚlove, the yearning for something higher, better, our emotions, our dreams, our hopes. Our abstract selves. Our spiritual selves. I feel like religion gets into that âfurther stuffâ that science does not, for me, at least. If you think science explains all that perfectly for you, then thats okay, that, essentially, is your belief.
If you dont want to think about religious ideas and stick to science, thats fine! Seriously, I dont think its necessary to live, you dont NEED religion, but for those who are inclined to explore that âotherâ that they sense and feel, I see no problem with that.
I really dont understand this âdeludingâ nonsenseâŚreally if it were pointed at anyone, I wouldnât understand it.
There it is.
In most fields of human endeavour people try to discover what THE truth is. It is probably a pipe dream to think that you could actually know with any real certainty exactly what happened two thousand years ago but my means of logic you can pretty confidently rule out certain possibilities. We can see that G-d doesnât interfere with reality now, we know people back then didnât know as much about science as they do now, and we know that people ascribed supernatural exlanations to things that were actually naturally occuring phenomenon. On the basis of that most non-biased observers would concude that no, those super-natural events didnât happen.
Religion and science cross the moment religion claims that anything happened. At that point it is âof this worldâ and open to analysis.[/quote]
What I was saying wasâŚyou have already decided what you think is. You have already established your truth for yourself - there is no G-d. Then you work from there. I believeâŚI really cant be sure, so I cant really say its truth or fact or that I am even 100% certain - but I believe G-d exists. I work from there. Weâre working from to totally different points!
Yes, people try to discover facts. No, we could never really know what happened 2000 years ago, I agree with you there, but we try. There is a Book that tries. Science tries. Your means of logic leads you to ideasâŚI see how you get there, I really honestly mean that. I understand what youre saying, but my means of logic gets me somewhere too. You understand that too, right?
But what is truth? Is truth unchanging law? We both have truths. Are mine the same as yours?
CRUCIFY HIM!
[quote=âDr. McCoyâ]But what is truth? Is truth unchanging law? We both have truths. Are mine the same as yours?
CRUCIFY HIM![/quote]
The thing about truth is, it changes with time. That the earth is flat was once the truth, or a least, accepted as such.
So maybe, the truth is what you make of itâŚwhat you accept it to be.
[quote=âbismarckâ][quote=âDr. McCoyâ]But what is truth? Is truth unchanging law? We both have truths. Are mine the same as yours?
CRUCIFY HIM![/quote]
The thing about truth is, it changes with time. That the earth is flat was once the truth, or a least, accepted as such.
So maybe, the truth is what you make of itâŚwhat you accept it to be.[/quote]
But the Earth wasnât flat.
I was quoting this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-yl5SJDJls
I think that opera was written by non-believers.
Quite right, but it was accepted as [strike]gospel[/strike] the truth that it was, at the timeâŚ
[quote=âDr. McCoyâ]I was quoting this one.
I think that opera was written by non-believers.[/quote]
Heretics!!!
Hereâs something light-hearted for you. If Facebook existed a long long time agoâŚ
Grant humanity the right to freedom FROM religion and I wonât care.
If, for example, you were to average out the age of marriage age for girls in Sub Sahran Africa and South East Asia youâd probably get a number like 16. Most married to men much older than themselves. This fucks up those girls lives. It fucks up societies, nevertheless it is condoned by religious leaders.
The Catholic church has been running a scam that allowed boys to be abused by religious leaders for decades. That is the largest church in the world. And the religious leaders, including the Pope, âknew.â Yet the Pope is treated to a state reception in England?
There are people, lots of them, who would blast out the call to prayer in your neighbourhood. Bet youâd care then.
There are people, lots of them, who would teach a literal interpretation of the Bible in the public school system.
Hinduâs maintain the caste system.
Buddhists ran a brutal theocracy in Tibet until the system was demolished by the communists.
At a point in history when, really, mankind needs to be focused on itâs common humanity, on itâs common problems we STILL have people maintaining divisions based very much on religion.
How long does the list need to get before we admit that religious belief and the authority based on that actually is a problem?
Really, I could pretty easiliy make it longer.
People derive a great deal of comfort from religion, obviously, and far be it from me to deprive anyone in this veil of tears access to comfort, until it actually starts becoming a huge problem. We have reached that point I would argue.
You guys will wonder what any of that has to do with you. You are really decent people (that is my impression). You in fact donât cause any problem with your religous beliefs. In fact it probably helps you to be good people. I donât doubt that. But what you donât see is that in your refusal to be swayed by any form of logic you actually possess the dirty seed at the root of it all, imperviousness. Nomnom claims to be open to a change in philosophy but I havenât seen any evidence of it here.
Personally, and for reasons Iâd rather not go into, people who are impervious to logic scare the living shit out of me. They really do. Not you guys especially, but that tendancy is definitely really frightening to me.
Besides the whole thing is fascinating even without all the political crap and personal psychological fixations associated with it. As far as I can tell these issues go to the heart of everything.
[quote=âbismarckâ]
Why care what other people believe? If it makes them happy, so be it. I only discuss religion/belief systems etc with people who wish to discuss it with me (in an adult fashion). I never try to convince others of what I believe, and no one will convince me that Iâm wrong. Not that anyone could prove that there is no God and no afterlife, anyway. âŚ
So it should go for all belief systems, no matter how crazy it may sound to you personally. And whatever someone believes, again unless theyâre trying to force it down your throat, so what? Why care?[/quote]
bismarck, I wish everyone would live and let live as you and many others on this thread do. But religious belief does affect actions and policy. An extreme example is that without religion and a belief of rewards in heaven, there would be an extremely reduced number of suicide bombers. No 9-11. And religion works itâs way over into legislation. How many places in the world can gays and lesbians get married? If someone believes in God, they might not worry as much about climate change, as itâs all part of Godâs plan. And surely death means something else if you are religious or atheist. In an atheist world, when someone dies, itâs probably all over for the deceased, and so life on this plane is extremely precious. In the religious world, the present life might not be that important, as itâs the one hereafter that is most sought after. So, war means different things to different people. How about the Pope discouraging the use of condoms (this is no small matter)? People being burned as witches (not in this century - yet). People scamming money out of the believers. Teenagers killing themselves because because of gay urges. Just some of the tragedies.
Religion encourages a belief in faith over fact and - IMHO - prevents true progress.
We canât say that âIt doesnât matter what people believeâ - if your friend believed the Goddess Tittyana had told him never to eat again, you would surely try and convince him to eat.
Belief is everything - either God exists and wants us to act in a certain way, and we all need to mend our ways and avoid specific groups, or doesnât, and then we have to learn responsibility for ourselves.
I wish I could let it go and only love everyone despite their beliefs, but its not that easy. So Iâll continue to love them despite their beliefs.
There it is.
In most fields of human endeavour people try to discover what THE truth is. It is probably a pipe dream to think that you could actually know with any real certainty exactly what happened two thousand years ago but my means of logic you can pretty confidently rule out certain possibilities. We can see that G-d doesnât interfere with reality now, we know people back then didnât know as much about science as they do now, and we know that people ascribed supernatural exlanations to things that were actually naturally occuring phenomenon. On the basis of that most non-biased observers would concude that no, those super-natural events didnât happen.
Religion and science cross the moment religion claims that anything happened. At that point it is âof this worldâ and open to analysis.[/quote]
What I was saying wasâŚyou have already decided what you think is. You have already established your truth for yourself - there is no G-d. Then you work from there. I believeâŚI really cant be sure, so I cant really say its truth or fact or that I am even 100% certain - but I believe G-d exists. I work from there. Weâre working from to totally different points!
Yes, people try to discover facts. No, we could never really know what happened 2000 years ago, I agree with you there, but we try. There is a Book that tries. Science tries. Your means of logic leads you to ideasâŚI see how you get there, I really honestly mean that. I understand what youre saying, but my means of logic gets me somewhere too. You understand that too, right?[/quote]
You seem like a very nice person and I respect the fact that you are engaging me in this way so I wish I could see how your logic got you somewhere, but I donât. Slowly but surely science is eating away at the super-natural stuff in the bible and yet people cling to notions such as that god spoke.
Oh, and I didnât say I that I believed there is no god. What I said was that I didnât believe he ever spoke or ever intervened with the laws of the universe. He may have âcreatedâ the laws of the universe. I have no clue about that but what I think would be more productive would be to say that god IS the laws of the universe. That woud be a psychologically sound, reality based philosophy. I can imagine that surrendering to reality on a regular basis would be absolutley magnificant.
There it is.
In most fields of human endeavour people try to discover what THE truth is. It is probably a pipe dream to think that you could actually know with any real certainty exactly what happened two thousand years ago but my means of logic you can pretty confidently rule out certain possibilities. We can see that G-d doesnât interfere with reality now, we know people back then didnât know as much about science as they do now, and we know that people ascribed supernatural exlanations to things that were actually naturally occuring phenomenon. On the basis of that most non-biased observers would concude that no, those super-natural events didnât happen.
Religion and science cross the moment religion claims that anything happened. At that point it is âof this worldâ and open to analysis.[/quote]
What I was saying wasâŚyou have already decided what you think is. You have already established your truth for yourself - there is no G-d. Then you work from there. I believeâŚI really cant be sure, so I cant really say its truth or fact or that I am even 100% certain - but I believe G-d exists. I work from there. Weâre working from to totally different points!
Yes, people try to discover facts. No, we could never really know what happened 2000 years ago, I agree with you there, but we try. There is a Book that tries. Science tries. Your means of logic leads you to ideasâŚI see how you get there, I really honestly mean that. I understand what youre saying, but my means of logic gets me somewhere too. You understand that too, right?[/quote]
You seem like a very nice person and I respect the fact that you are engaging me in this way so I wish I could see how your logic got you somewhere, but I donât. Slowly but surely science is eating away at the super-natural stuff in the bible and yet people cling to notions such as that god spoke.
Oh, and I didnât say I that I believed there is no god. What I said was that I didnât believe he ever spoke or ever intervened with the laws of the universe. He may have âcreatedâ the laws of the universe. I have no clue about that but what I think would be more productive would be to say that god IS the laws of the universe. That woud be a psychologically sound, reality based philosophy. I can imagine that surrendering to reality on a regular basis would be absolutley magnificant.[/quote]
In the end, how you see things is just one belief, just as mine is, just one belief, out of millionsâŚwe all see things a little differently. So, we end up where we started, but hey, we shared and know we understand each other a little better. 
[quote=âbobâ]But what you donât see is that in your refusal to be swayed by any form of logic you actually possess the dirty seed at the root of it all, imperviousness.[/quote] So we got that dirty seed, do we?
[quote=âNomNomTaiwanâ][quote=âsandmanâ][quote] What the hell is wrong, exactly, for seeking, maybe not reason, maybe not logic, but most DEFINITELY a taproot into the daft, fucked up world that being human entails?
[/quote][/quote]
I really agree here! Well said.
Science is a provisional truth, religion is abstract. We use both, but were always just trying our best and never REALLY know. How will we ever? I know I am always speaking based off of the data I have right now the best data I can have, and that data can change, then you have to make adjustments. Really, its just living.
I personally believe religion gets down to the stuff science can never get intoâŚlove, the yearning for something higher, better, our emotions, our dreams, our hopes. Our abstract selves. Our spiritual selves. I feel like religion gets into that âfurther stuffâ that science does not, for me, at least. If you think science explains all that perfectly for you, then thats okay, that, essentially, is your belief.
If you dont want to think about religious ideas and stick to science, thats fine! Seriously, I donât think its necessary to live, you dont NEED religion, but for those who are inclined to explore that âotherâ that they sense and feel, I see no problem with that.
I really dont understand this âdeludingâ nonsenseâŚreally if it were pointed at anyone, I wouldnât understand it.[/quote]
We donât need either religion or science to yearn for more and think about what is out there and what it is all about, that is part of being human. Many scientists pursue science as part of their yearning to learn more, they have more in common with religious believers than you think but prefer to take a rational route to it. I donât need a spiritual guide or master or priest ⌠I can still feel a sense of wonderment about the world and how things came to be. To think that religious people are âdeeperâ thinkers is plain wrong.
I hate people trying to equate science with religion, itâs a complete joke, leading to teaching of creationism in the US for example. It leads to repression of scientific ideas. Science has a body of evidence and theory behind it. It is not about belief either. A bible story written by unknown persons 2000 years ago in the pre-technoological era is not equivalent to rational theories built up from a body of evidence over centuries. Science is not equivalent to religion, it does not occupy the same zone and religious people should have no influence on scientific ideasâŚever!
Delusion is when you believe in something that has no evidence of existing but one still believes in it. I went to a religious school and was part of a fairly religious family (not overbearing though). By the time I was a teenager none of the supernatural stuff made any sense whatsoever. Iâd ask the teachers for answers to questions and they would just get angryâŚbecause there was no answer to these questions, you just had to âbelieveâ it was so. I know the Christian religion well and in fact I know the history of Christianity and itâs development better than 90% of Christians Iâm sure⌠That people can believe that the bible is the literal truth and word of âGodâ is wellâŚletâs not elevate these religious ideas outside the usual debating framework because people feel uncomfortable.
Now I like some of the ideas from parts of religions but just as ideas and human concepts.