Do you have an explanation for why so many are so mad?
Perhaps the most challenging question for the atheist is: why, after so many decades of âenlightenmentâ do so many people believe in âall that stuff.â
Possibly even more challenging is the fact that millions of Christians do not believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible yet, YET they continue to find some solace from the troubles of the world in the traditions of Christianity and the story of the life of Christ as described in the gospels. One would think that the ever inquiring mind would be curious rather than dismissive about such things. 
Do you have an explanation for why so many are so mad?[/quote]
Fear of uncertainty combines with the phenomenal capacity of most people to support ideas that make absolutely no sense, particularly when the ideas are expressed by âauthorityâ figures I guess, and particularly when the nonsensical bits are wrapped up with some pretty sound insight. Most religious people come from communities, or even whole societies, where a dominant religion shapes thier lives from a young age so they have no idea that the essentially humanistic concepts (i.e. the good bits) are widely held beliefs that exist outside religion. Itâs brainwashing essentially. Once in awhile you will see a troubled person find religion, frequently after they have fucked up their lives and have, perhaps, landed themselves in prison, but you almost never see an educated, informed, stable adult do that. They might start attending church for the solidarity it provides but they sit through the irrationality of it because they are not bothered that much by irrationality. That is what drives me beserk honestly. People who can sit and listen to maddness and not be bothered by it.
Lol, I recall some people years ago having a discussion about a role-playing game, based in a world where angels and demons were present and active and armageddon was coming. In this discussion the point was made that the celestial beings were battling over peopleâs belief in god, and thus angels often werenât the good guys - theyâd be starting wars and creating famines and disasters, because poor, desperate people go to church, while demons would be working towards stability and prosperity because content, middle class people tend to become increasingly apathetic towards religionâŚ
No one has answered why your religion should be taken as more true than others, or your attitude to other religions.
As I said, creator god is a hypothesis that cannot be confirmed or disproved. But the religions themselves were invented by humans (why else would human concepts be presented as universal truth?).
Did you choose your religion, or did you just take it as read? And if you chose it, did you undertake thorough research about the alternatives first?
Essentially, if there were I god, I believe it would be a god at a distance, outside the universe which is ultimately governed by physics and mathematics. This rules out miracles, virgin birth, going up to heaven (wherever that is) on a cloud etc.
There may be no evidence either way on the existence of god (which in itself is evidence that if he exists, he is beyond the universe), but there is overwhelming evidence that the universe obeys physical laws which preclude all these miracles. Iâm not incredulous about belief in a god. Iâm just incredulous about belief in religion.
Does anyone believe in the devil? That guy with horns and cloven hooves? Did he have cloven hooves before goats evolved?
Maybe all those kiddy tickling PRIESTS (aka: âspiritual leadersâ) were atheists in disguise?
I did. I answered no. I donât think anybody knows. I have made my choice, so Iâm free to persue other things. Like chocolate.
Lol, I recall some people years ago having a discussion about a role-playing game, based in a world where angels and demons were present and active and armageddon was coming. In this discussion the point was made that the celestial beings were battling over peopleâs belief in god, and thus angels often werenât the good guys - theyâd be starting wars and creating famines and disasters, because poor, desperate people go to church, while demons would be working towards stability and prosperity because content, middle class people tend to become increasingly apathetic towards religionâŚ[/quote]
Thatâs part of the basis of the TV series Supernatural starting in season 3. Wait, was that the name of the game youâre talking about? Or was that ZorkâŚ
Thatâs classic irony. Thatâs why I like bob.
One of the most succinct and insightful comments Iâve ever read on forumosa. Well done bob.
Thanks guys.
Not surprising, given that such beliefs are passed down from parents to children, usually with a society that reinforces such transmissions.
But the degree of atheism in the populations of developed countries is slowly but surely growing. I do believe that religious belief will eventually die out naturally as science advances and there are fewer and fewer gaps for the god-of-the-gaps to hide in, but it may take a few centuries. Religious beliefs are stubborn things, especially when there are people who have an interest in keeping such beliefs alive.
One of the most succinct and insightful comments Iâve ever read on forumosa. Well done bob.[/quote]
Really? That is not at all my experience, and I grew up in the church. One of my family friends, and a bit of a mentor, passed away a couple of weeks ago. In his obit, he was quoted:
[quote]âChristian theology in our time calls for a disciplined imagination â the daring exploration of new frontiers of intellectual space; a fidelity to the ancient truths of the Judeo-Christian tradition; an empathetic engagement with all Christians, all faiths, and all peoples; a high regard for nature, experience, and all forms of knowledge; and a resolute witness to peace, justice and reconciliation in a world of violenceâŚ
⌠We must involve ourselves in the world, but that means itâs going to be messy. We live in a fallen world and canât live pure lives. As we live boldly in the world, we will automatically fall short.â[/quote]
Neither I, nor any of the people I grew up around, are ignorant of the world. To say we have âno ideaâ that humanistic concepts exist outside religion is just hyperbole.
I believe there are aspects of religious belief we can reasonably discard with a high degree of certainty and without being overly arrogant.
Any anthropomorphic notion of god is (highly likely) nonsense. There really is no bloke upstairs with a long white beard. We inevitably fashion him (and heaven) in our own image - but over time there is a steady trend away from this.
An interventionist god is highly improbable.
There isnât anyone listening on the other end of the telephone line when you pray. If there was, heâd have known what you were going to say before you said it. Not only that, he made you say it. The only purpose of prayer would be to clarify or strengthen your own mind (meditate).
There is no you after âyouâ die. Your personality and awareness are made up of biological processes, which can be changed by events in the physical world. Brain injuries or diseases change peoples characters in complex ways. Even if you had a continuous consciousness from life to death, âyouâ would be a very different entity (perfected?).
There are no miracles. All the evidence points to there being one set of rules within our universe. Any posited multiverse may be another matter.
Personally, I believe there is one kind of stuff in the universe, encompassing living and non living, mind and body, the physical and spiritual. If there is a soul, ego, consciousness, whatever, on death it disintegrates just like the body. All the bits that made up my grandfatherâs body still exist on earth but they have lost their structure. I believe the same may be true of consciousness or the soul. It survives but in a less structured form.
Which leads me to conclude that there is no such thing as living and non living matter, no such thing as conscious or unconscious life or the hard edged discrete individual and hence no such thing as death. All things are continuous, not discrete.
I also believe that the truth is far more wonderful and amazing than we could possibly imagine - and there is no need for religion to say that. If in a mere 3.5 billion years life on Earth has come to know so much about the workings of the universe, how much more there must be to know!
[quote=âfruitloopâ]I believe there are aspects of religious belief we can reasonably discard with a high degree of certainty and without being overly arrogant.
Any anthropomorphic notion of god is (highly likely) nonsense. There really is no bloke upstairs with a long white beard. We inevitably fashion him (and heaven) in our own image - but over time there is a steady trend away from this.[/quote]
I think you have a logical belief system.
I donât think you will find in the Bible anything about a bloke upstairs with a long white beard. It does say we were made in his image. It also says we cannot look upon him.
I think you have stereotyped Christians to a ridiculous level. But live and let live. My beliefs are just as valid as yours.
[quote=âMaomanâ]One of my family friends, and a bit of a mentor, passed away a couple of weeks ago. In his obit, he was quoted:
[quote]âChristian theology in our time calls for a disciplined imagination â the daring exploration of new frontiers of intellectual space; a fidelity to the ancient truths of the Judeo-Christian tradition; an empathetic engagement with all Christians, all faiths, and all peoples; a high regard for nature, experience, and all forms of knowledge; and a resolute witness to peace, justice and reconciliation in a world of violenceâŚ
⌠We must involve ourselves in the world, but that means itâs going to be messy. We live in a fallen world and canât live pure lives. As we live boldly in the world, we will automatically fall short.â[/quote]
Neither I, nor any of the people I grew up around, are ignorant of the world. To say we have âno ideaâ that humanistic concepts exist outside religion is just hyperbole.[/quote]
Thereâs a substantial difference in the type of belief youâre referencing here and fundamentalist belief - and the believers themselves. I realize fruitloop/bob are asking more general questions and making more blanket comments, but they are significantly different groups wrt knowledge of the outside world, critical thinking and reasoning, and blind faith. That obit sounds progressive and modern (and somewhat self-contradictory - but thatâs a different argument); there is a large contingent of fundamentalists who argue that there can be no morality without god, and a large number of followers who agree with that assessment. I doubt most of them took a look at the options atheism/agnosticism provide, or were capable enough to objectively evaluating them.
[quote=âDr. McCoyâ][quote=âfruitloopâ]I believe there are aspects of religious belief we can reasonably discard with a high degree of certainty and without being overly arrogant.
Any anthropomorphic notion of god is (highly likely) nonsense. There really is no bloke upstairs with a long white beard. We inevitably fashion him (and heaven) in our own image - but over time there is a steady trend away from this.[/quote]
I think you have a logical belief system.
I donât think you will find in the Bible anything about a bloke upstairs with a long white beard. It does say we were made in his image. It also says we cannot look upon him.
I think you have stereotyped Christians to a ridiculous level. But live and let live. My beliefs are just as valid as yours.[/quote]
I was excluding options. If you and other Christians have already excluded them, fair enough. Weâre in agreement.
In terms of your right to hold them, all beliefs are equal. In terms of their validity, they are absolutely not. We can say with a fair degree of certainty that the world is not sitting on the back of an elephant atop a turtle but there are those who have believed this and probably still do.
I do not now, nor have I ever believed that the world was sitting on the back of a turtle.
Good. Another thing that weâre in agreement on.
Infidel! May be you strapped to the back of the Great Turtle and spun around until you look like Reed Richards of the Fantastic Four!