Emergency! Advice needed tonight!

Legal Legal - Work
21

[quote=“housecat”][quote=“marboulette”]I’m just saying that the OP can go about applying for another work permit without any worries. That’s the OP’s main concern, I believe, but there is no need to cancel one’s work permit prior to applying for a second work permit. There’s no need to involve the FAP, here. The OP has his/her ARC in hand as of now. There’s little the FAP can do to help because the school did provide the OP with a work permit in the end.

If you have your ARC, you shouldn’t even ask your first school to cancel anything until you have your new work permit. Just walk (given how they have treated you.).

Just my 2 cents.

marboulette[/quote]

That’s right, she does have the ARC, now. The thing is convincing the new school that she doesn’t need that letter, then? (Good advice, Marboulette, if she can use it.)[/quote]

Thank you all for your advice. My head is hurting though because I’m so stressed out. I do know now that I should have taken care of the ARC stuff myself but of course I was naive, came here through a recruiter, etc.

I would love to delay ending things with current school and just calling in sick every day but the new school suggested I give them notice that I will be leaving next Friday. In the meantime, I am going to try and get the rest of the documents to the new school so they can go ahead and apply for my permit. They did say I have to get a cancel contract form from my current school. So Marboulette, you are saying that my new school can apply for a work permit for me even though I am still under contract with present school? They do not need to have a cancel contract form? I thought I read that this form is necessary for new school to go ahead with the proceedings?

Then there is the issue of my current school trying to pressure me to sign the contract tomorrow. Of course I won’t do it. I’m just trying to figure out what the best possible thing to do is…everyone is giving such good advice but I am not sure which route would work best.

22

Skyfae,

You don’t need the cancel contract form for applying for the work permit.
So first off give the other school all the stuff they need for the work permit.
They want you fast so they’ll sort it ASAP.

Then you add it to your ARC, at the National Immigration agency. as a second employer, check tealit the details are all on there in an article. Then you hand in your notice or however at the other school, and make the new school your primary employer (again its in th etealit article).

However I would still encourge you to check the labor law. The more you know about it the better. This means it will be harder for the other school to cheat you out of cash owed.

You MUST hand in notice at the other school though, in writing, to avoid the not turning up to work for three days clause stipulated in your work permit. Do whatever the minumum is by law. If it’s nothing all the better.
The work permit can be as fast as four days. Just get the stuff to the school ASAP.
When the new permit arrives , Post the resignation letter recorded delivery. Go to work that day, as it won;t arrive till the next. If you can give them a couple of days notice, that would make you look more reasonable, and hence them worse to the labour bureau.
If you’ve acted within the law then the labour bureau will help you get any money owed.

the labour law is in English on the IFF site I think.

And do call the labour bureau, so that you’re confident you’re acting within the law.

And even if you manage to wriggle out of there with the minimum of fuss I’d still find out the number for the labour bureau, and grass the school up for the ARC trick. You can do this in confidence. It will help anyone else who goes to the bureau with a problem with the same school in the future, if nothing else.

Check that article on tealit too.

Cheers
Kit kat

23

[quote=“Skyfae”]So Marboulette, you are saying that my new school can apply for a work permit for me even though I am still under contract with present school? [/quote]Yes.[quote] They do not need to have a cancel contract form? [/quote]That is correct.

[quote]I thought I read that this form is necessary for new school to go ahead with the proceedings? [/quote]You probably read that on an old outdated website somewhere.

[quote]Then there is the issue of my current school trying to pressure me to sign the contract tomorrow. Of course I won’t do it.[/quote]I would do it. In fact, it sounds like your ticket to buy you some time until your new work permit comes through.

[quote]I am not sure which route would work best.[/quote]You should just trust me. I’ve had multiple work sponsors for nearly 3 years and I only need one to keep my ARC. I’d like to think my good looks have something to do with it, but I’m afraid not. :wink:

marboulette

24

[quote]You MUST hand in notice at the other school though, in writing, to avoid the not turning up to work for three days clause stipulated in your work permit.[/quote]That clause only applies after 3 months of employment, I believe. One is free to just walk without any notice within the first 3 months. I mean… What are you going to write in the written notice? “I’m not coming in anymore as of right now” ?

There are no clauses in the application for a work permit that supersedes labor laws. Period.

marboulette

25

[quote=“marboulette”][quote]You MUST hand in notice at the other school though, in writing, to avoid the not turning up to work for three days clause stipulated in your work permit.[/quote]That clause only applies after 3 months of employment, I believe. One is free to just walk without any notice within the first 3 months. I mean… What are you going to write in the written notice? “I’m not coming in anymore as of right now” ?

There are no clauses in the application for a work permit that supersedes labor laws. Period.

marboulette[/quote]

I know I’m probably seeming idiodic but I’m not getting this. I checked out the tealit website at this link

tealit.com/article_categorie … e=changing

It states that when changing jobs I have to sign a cancel contract form. I also do not understand how the new school can apply for a work permit for me to add them as a second job? Won’t the Council of Labor Affairs see that I already have one full-time job with maximum hours? It says by law that “policy” states an employee cannot work more than 32 hours per week…what if my school submitted something saying I’m working 32 hours per week? I believe in the contract it stipulates I cannot work for any other school while employed with them.

I’m sorry, this is all really confusing to me.

Also, it would make sense to sign the contract current school is now trying to make me sign and delay things but I do not want to sign anything else with them. Most likely it will be in Chinese and be confusing as hell. In fact, I don’t even want to go to work tomorrow. I’m so physically sickened by all of this.

26

Call in sick, do something fun. Don’t get so stressed you lose it.

Sorry you’re having such a bad time.

27

Follow Marboulette’s advice exactly and you will be sorted, stop looking at tealit, probably outdated. I’ve done, what Marb. has suggested, recently and without hassle. I can assure you that they have not reported to anyone your actual teaching hours, I’ve not heard of a school being honest about this. Call in sick tomorrow and sort the other school, get the ball rolling with your work permit. You don’t want to leave this other school hanging for 1 more day, they are probably still looking at other candidates and will take one in a second. This will also give you 3 more days and about 50 more posts to help you along.

28

[quote=“Skyfae”]It states that when changing jobs I have to sign a cancel contract form. [/quote]I know for a fact that Tealit is outdated.

[quote] I also do not understand how the new school can apply for a work permit for me to add them as a second job? Won’t the Council of Labor Affairs see that I already have one full-time job with maximum hours? [/quote]Labour affairs and ministery of education are two different departments altogether that have zero communication between one another. Rare if any are the schools that sign a contract assuring more than 14 hrs. per week anyways. I’m talking about the contract required to apply for the work permit. Usually, another contract is signed in which the hours of work are defined more clearly, but that is the second contract which is NOT forwarded to the government. It’s standard practice, hence why you are asked to sign a second contract. The first one is just a very basic fake contract stating that you will be working the minimum hours to be eligible for residency. Nothing else. The second contract can be pain in the ass, but if you quit within 30 days, it’s meaningless. There isn’t a single civil court that will rule against labour laws, the school laobans know it, and that’s why we’ve never heard of a single school suing an employee for quitting without notice. Not in the first three months, not even after three years. It’s unheard of.

marboulette

29

Marboulette is probably right, he has experience with multiple work permits.
Signing a new contract still gives you 30 days to back out of it from either side.
However if you don’t want to sign it, and it will almost certainly involve a chinese version, just say you want to take it to your friend to read/ think about it. This is perfecty within your rights. Take a copy.
If you call the labour bureau, which you can do annonymously, you will get concrete, up to date answers to the questions.
Do as Buttercup suggests, call in sick tomorrow and take some time to get your head around this, drop in papers to the new school etc.
THe cancel contract paper will only come into play at the NIA when applying for your ARC.
BTW, don’t take IFF word for intepretaion of the law, you need to speak to someone in the labour bureau, just use the IFF line to get the right numbers/ or use the site to get the relevant laws in English. Just make sure you have a pen and paper handy when you speak with the labour bureau, and always ask for the relevant point of law, so you know your stuff. No matter how you handle this, prepared is best.
hope it all works out for you

kitkat

btw IFF is 24 hours, and if they don’t know, they call you back.

30

This might add to the confusion but just last month a teacher was hired at my school, but he had some difficulty transferring his ARC. The NIA would not let him transfer his ARC to my school until his previous school issued a termination of contract form. In the end he got his ARC transferred over, but only after his previous school submitted a signed (by him and his previous employer) termination of contract form to the NIA. Last week he received a document from the NIA that states his contract has been officially canceled from his previous school, the form looks just like the work permit form, but shows the exact date a particular work permit has been canceled.

31

update:

Last night my new school sent me two forms they wanted me to print out and bring to my current school today or tomorrow. They are already in the process of preparing for my work permit. The forms are in Chinese and English and are basically agreements to cancel my contract without any further issues between myself or the school. It would have been nice to go ahead and have the permit secure before showing them these forms, but this is what the new school wanted me to do.

I called in sick today and went to the doctor to confirm that I have bronchitis. Got a note. Called current school and told them I wanted to have a meeting with both managers and the owner. The manager sounded really upset on the phone and kept asking if it had something to do with the contract I haven’t signed yet.

I gave her very basic detail and then we agreed to meet. They told me the owner was unavailable tonight but I strongly suspect he was hanging around the school.

Anyway here’s how the meeting went:

First I gave them my doctors note just to prove that I was not lying about being sick, though I don’t even know why I care at this point.

Then I told them I apologize but because of health reasons and also because I believe the school is not a good fit for me, I will be resigning. I told them I am willing to work until next Friday if need be and showed them the forms. Wow, I could not believe all the flattery that came out of their mouths. First they told me I was just feeling sick and next week I’d feel better and I’d want to stay at the school. I said no. Then they told me what a great teacher I am, how my teaching gets better every day, etc. etc. I said I apologize but I still want to leave. They asked me to stay until after our graduation play (Aug 22) I reiterated the previous point. They asked me what I had against them personally and I said there are just various things with the school and I don’t feel I am a good fit. After the flattery, they tried attacking on an emotional level.

They said I am breaking my contract on very short notice and it wasn’t right, and I said that legally I’ve only been working for them one month so in fact, I don’t really owe them any notice. Then they tried questioning me about that “Teacher, what do you mean you have only been working here legally one month” and I just looked at them and kinda laughed and said they understand perfectly well what I’m talking about. They kept trying to hit the moral button with me. To be honest, I do feel guilty as I tend to feel guilty about many things but in this case I explained that while I feel bad my physical health and happiness are important right now. They tried telling me my students would be upset.

Management: What about your students, don’t you care what they think?

Me: My G class (junior high level kids) do not like me anyway. They won’t care.

Management goes silent then says a little more angrily: What about your kindergarten class, don’t you feel bad leaving them when they just had a teacher leave not long ago?

Me: I love the children and I do feel bad but they will be fine and I’m sure they won’t notice that much.

Management looking pretty irritated by this point.

I apologized again of course, trying to smooth the ruffles. They stated it wasn’t fair what I was doing to them and how would they get a teacher on such short notice? I explained that the recruiter who brought me here is overloaded with applications and they would have no problem finding a replacement teacher.

Management: But training will take a long time, it will take a month.

Me: You trained me in three days.

More silence from management.

They asked me AGAIN to stay until they find a new teacher and I said no, I cannot. They AGAIN said I was being unfair.
I told them it was unfair to withhold my ARC and we got into that again. They are insisting it arrived two days ago and they didn’t give it to me because I was “sleeping” at my desk (my head was down on break because of my sickness) and they didn’t want to disturb me. Of course, I know this is BS. They got ruffled and insisted they are not trying to cheat me. She insisted she could prove to me she wasn’t hiding it and I could call this number, etc.

Anyway, they told me they will talk to the manager tonight and have a meeting with me tomorrow if I agree to come into work for the full day. I said that I may or may not come in because of my illness and if possible I’m sure we could meet early evening tomorrow.

They asked me if I would be staying in Taiwan and going to teach for another school and I told them I didn’t know.
Then they asked me if the other teachers know I’m leaving and of course I had to lie about that. I think they’re freaked, hoping I won’t tell the others what happened. But of course, most of them know about it.

When I left I thanked them for speaking with me and they just stared at me like I was from another planet. Throughout the meeting I kept stating that I don’t want any issues and want to leave peacefully.

I’m sure I’ve probably not gone about things the best way and I’m sure I will still be cheated out of a lot of pay but at this point I just want them to sign the contract and let me go so I can move on to a much happier place with the new school.

Thanks to everyone who gave me all the detailed advice yesterday. If I had more time I would have followed the suggestions properly. I prob will call the labor board after the dust clears.

Will let everyone know what happens…

32

All the best to you; it sounds like you handled it well. Well done for keeping calm.

Please take care of your health; bronchitis doesn’t sound too good. I know it’s difficult and it’s impossible not to brood about things, but try not to think about it. Make sure you are eating and sleeping properly.

In no time at all, you’ll look back on this and smile, I promise. Take care.

33

Skyfae, the number of teachers I know who have received the exact same conversation from a bushiban manager that you got. It always follows exactly the same line, flatter - plead - emotionally blackmail - threaten. I swear the bushiban managers are sent on a training course.

Don’t feel guilty and continue to do what is right for you. I have a mate who I am trying to persuade to change schools (he’s a great guy, a great teacher and his boss is an absolute shit). He keeps getting persuaded to stay, mainly at the emotional blackmail stage. Every time I see him he is physically smaller, seriously, that bitch is killing him.

34

[quote=“tomthorne”]Skyfae, the number of teachers I know who have received the exact same conversation from a buxiban manager that you got. It always follows exactly the same line, flatter - plead - emotionally blackmail - threaten. I swear the buxiban managers are sent on a training course.

Don’t feel guilty and continue to do what is right for you. I have a mate who I am trying to persuade to change schools (he’s a great guy, a great teacher and his boss is an absolute shit). He keeps getting persuaded to stay, mainly at the emotional blackmail stage. Every time I see him he is physically smaller, seriously, that bitch is killing him.[/quote]

It’s terrible. Well, like I said, I got them to sign the cancel contract form. I pulled one of my managers aside and asked today if I am still going to get paid a full month’s salary this Friday. She said since I am breaking the contract early they want to take 25,000 from me. As I mentioned before, I signed a contract through e-mail overseas. The contract said if you end things early they “may” try to take the funds from you. I’ve heard other teachers left without being punished in such a manner. Also, I never did sign the official contract after I got my ARC.

I told her legally the fine is not allowed. She changed the subject and tried to ask if I called the number she had given me in regards to my ARC…she seems set on trying to prove she was not holding it back. I reminded her that the stamp date in my passport and the stamp date on the ARC are the same, so the ARC was NOT mailed later due to a shortage of office supplies. I told her again that I just want things to go peacefully at it is not right that they take so much money from me after I’ve worked all month (and put in so much time and effort for our graduation play). She said she will try to talk to the school and get back to me later.

I called a couple of numbers others on here had mentioned tonight. They told me that technically the fine is illegal but since there was that stipulation in the contract the school could possibly get away with it…I’m going to try one more time tomorrow and then if they are still giving me trouble I will call this number I was given tonight. I did say I would part with the pay but now it’s making me angry and I think the fact that they want to take so much away is ridiculous.

I know I am leaving on short notice but maybe if they treated their teachers better and weren’t so shady they wouldn’t have a high turnover problem.

35

Here is part of the contract I signed while still in the United States…

36

[quote=“Skyfae”]I called a couple of numbers others on here had mentioned tonight. They told me that technically the fine is illegal but since there was that stipulation in the contract the school could possibly get away with it…I’m going to try one more time tomorrow and then if they are still giving me trouble I will call this number I was given tonight. I did say I would part with the pay but now it’s making me angry and I think the fact that they want to take so much away is ridiculous[/quote]Do not allow them to withhold any of your pay. Any of it! Don’t even agree to a partial garnishment. It doesn’t matter what the contract you signed says. A school can’t legally garnish your pay for any reason, unless you accept it. Firstly, they must pay you in full for all hours worked. Secondly, if they feel you’ve unfairly breached your employment contract, they have the option to file a civil lawsuit against you and use the contract as a supporting document to prove their allegations. Then and only then will a judge determine the merits of the case and will make a judgement for you or against you. An employer can’t act as judge and jury in these matters and take unilateral action and garnish any of your pay themselves. A judge must order it. Tell your former school that you know the law, you have spoken with the Council of Labor Affairs and failure to pay you in full will result in their mandatory appearance together with you and a representative of the CLA for an arbitration hearing. Don’t forget to add in the fact that there will be a lot of bad publicity if they make you go all the way with this and it would just be in their best interest to pay you in full and have you go away quietly without causing a public relations shit storm for them. If they still refuse to pay you, call the Council of Labor Affairs and speak with them and get a case number assigned and request an arbitration hearing. The CLA will tell your employer to pay you in full and afterward they are welcome to file a lawsuit against you if they feel you unfairly breached your contract and they want to recoup any monetary compensation.

Toughen up and be insistant! Do not allow them to bully you into agreeing to accepting anything less than payment in full. Go see the manager of your school in person and provide them with a written demand for payment in full. Make sure the letter states that failure to pay you all wages in full will result in a report to the Council of Labor Affairs and a subsequent arbitration hearing. Most schools will just want this situation to go away as quickly and quietly as possible and they won’t want to be involved with the Council of Labor Affairs for any reason or have a lot of bad publicity directed at their school which would make it harder for them to hire new foreign teachers. Afterall, we have our own “Blacklist of Schools” and they could very easily find their name on it! :unamused: Good luck.

37

[quote]I signed a contract while overseas. Like I said, after I caught her in the lie and she handed me my ARC, she then said “When will you be available to sign the contract?!”

It doesn’t make much sense…[/quote]

You cannot get a work permit with out a contract. The Office of Labor Affairs 行政院勞工委員會 cannot offer you a work permit without a contract. Then the immigration office will ask for the work permit along with another copy of your contract. This work permit needs to be filed in both offices.

38

Your logic is flawed. Since she pulled the ARC out of the drawer, it is obvious that she already had your ARC but it does not matter what day the office stamps. Sometimes there are delays. I once was without an ARC for two months since the immigration office ran out of the card to print ARCs on. It was not until two matters after the day I was suppose to get my ARC that I actually received it. In this case I applied to the ARC myself. Something you should probably do in the future then you will not need to work about your boss hiding your ARC.

39

There are also other reasons to tell the government you only work 14 hours. One is so they do not have to pay as high of rate on your insurance. Insurance payments are based on how much you earn. Another reason is some schools really under report their income so they need to lie to the government about how much they are paying you. If not they would need to show that they are losing money.

40

[quote=“Northcoast Surfer”][quote=“Skyfae”]I called a couple of numbers others on here had mentioned tonight. They told me that technically the fine is illegal but since there was that stipulation in the contract the school could possibly get away with it…I’m going to try one more time tomorrow and then if they are still giving me trouble I will call this number I was given tonight. I did say I would part with the pay but now it’s making me angry and I think the fact that they want to take so much away is ridiculous[/quote]Do not allow them to withhold any of your pay. Any of it! Don’t even agree to a partial garnishment. It doesn’t matter what the contract you signed says. A school can’t legally garnish your pay for any reason, unless you accept it. Firstly, they must pay you in full for all hours worked. Secondly, if they feel you’ve unfairly breached your employment contract, they have the option to file a civil lawsuit against you and use the contract as a supporting document to prove their allegations. Then and only then will a judge determine the merits of the case and will make a judgement for you or against you. An employer can’t act as judge and jury in these matters and take unilateral action and garnish any of your pay themselves. A judge must order it. Tell your former school that you know the law, you have spoken with the Council of Labor Affairs and failure to pay you in full will result in their mandatory appearance together with you and a representative of the CLA for an arbitration hearing. Don’t forget to add in the fact that there will be a lot of bad publicity if they make you go all the way with this and it would just be in their best interest to pay you in full and have you go away quietly without causing a public relations shit storm for them. If they still refuse to pay you, call the Council of Labor Affairs and speak with them and get a case number assigned and request an arbitration hearing. The CLA will tell your employer to pay you in full and afterward they are welcome to file a lawsuit against you if they feel you unfairly breached your contract and they want to recoup any monetary compensation.

Toughen up and be insistant! Do not allow them to bully you into agreeing to accepting anything less than payment in full. Go see the manager of your school in person and provide them with a written demand for payment in full. Make sure the letter states that failure to pay you all wages in full will result in a report to the Council of Labor Affairs and a subsequent arbitration hearing. Most schools will just want this situation to go away as quickly and quietly as possible and they won’t want to be involved with the Council of Labor Affairs for any reason or have a lot of bad publicity directed at their school which would make it harder for them to hire new foreign teachers. Afterall, we have our own “Blacklist of Schools” and they could very easily find their name on it! :unamused: Good luck.[/quote]

Thank you! I am going to talk to them today and use this new information you’ve given me. If they still refuse, I will type up a letter tonight and present it to them tomorrow.