Foreigners living in Taiwan who don't learn the language

Before I get into the purpose of this thread, a little background: In a previous thread I and others learning Chinese here expressed dismay at how hard it can be learning Chinese in Taiwan (and China to some extent) because, among other things, every encounter with a stranger starts off with the inevitable assumption that we don’t speak Chinese. Quite simply that assumption destroys the “immersion factor” of learning the language here in that the only people who will approach foreigners are those who speak English. Sure, once I open up the conversation and the person I’m talking to realizes I can speak Chinese, everything is fine and dandy. But the sad fact is that communication is, in terms of initiation, always a one way street here the vast majority of the time. That makes for an extremely lonely experience when not in the company of friends.

Someone learning English in the States, or the local language in almost any other country, would have tons of experiences where they can experience/learn things just as a normal person. The guy behind the counter at the gas station isn’t going to panic when he sees an Asian walk in the door, and decide that he just won’t say anything or will only use the simplest language possible in talking to them. No, they assume that person speaks perfect English. Because almost everyone does. Because you basically have to if you want to live there and be self-sufficient. Over time those hundreds or thousands of experiences in which strangers assume you can speak English fluently make a huge difference in both learning quality and quality of life. It’s a form of respect. Here in Taiwan nobody even bothers asking “你會說中文嗎?” Because the vast majority of the time they already “know” I can’t. (If you can’t read that, you have your first assignment).

And I’ve realized, it’s not just about the “learning environment”. It’s about being treated like a normal human being. Here in Taiwan I go to the grocery store and if I don’t say anything, the clerk points at the picture of the member’s card to find out if I have one, to name one example. The default treatment of a foreigner here, if the person in question doesn’t speak English, is that of a retarded caveman. A 2 year old imbocile.

(actual rant beginning)

And it’s not their fault. I can’t blame the Taiwanese people for this behavior. Hell they should be commended for being so accommodating. Try living in France without speaking French.

No, the fault lies with the vast majority of foreigners who come here and don’t learn a local language - Chinese/Taiwanese take your pick. And the more I thought about this, the more I realized how pathetic it is that so many people are willing to come here for an extended period of time and not learn the language. I’m not going to make a lot of friends here by saying this, but I’m going to be totally frank: I think living in a foreign country and not making a serious effort to speak the local language is disrespectful, low-class, and frankly trashy. Yes, one can get away with only speaking English here. But think about someone living in your home country for years and not being able to communicate with anyone in the local language. Imagine this person, after living in a country for 10 years, still has to point at the menu and use their fingers like a baby to order food. You’d think the person was either homeless or a complete idiot. You don’t have to be the next LiBai either, conversational ability is all it takes baby.

So yeah, I’m calling out anyone who comes to Taiwan for more than a few months and hasn’t made a serious effort to learn the language. Get off your ass and do what any self-respecting expat would do. In my time on this island the unfortunate fact is that people will always see my white mug and take me for the tingbudong ignorant foreigner most of us are. But out of respect for yourself and the culture you’re now a part of, dear God, learn the language!

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ni gong shia?

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Because foreigners in Taiwan are such losers (myself included) it is necessary to establish one’s superiority over fellow waiguoren.
Here’s how it is done:

  1. Length of stay in Taiwan.
  2. Chinese ability.
  3. Having a blog chronicling your sorry existence in Taiwan.
  4. You’ve written a book about Taiwan.
  5. You’ve been on the local TV.
  6. Being married to a local.

And because 1-6 have become so common these are now the trump cards
7. You speak Taiwanese.
8. You have Taiwanese citizenship
9. You have served in the Taiwan military.

Personally, the only thing I judge someone by is the number of posts on Forumosa!

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蝦米?

Well, what can I say, necroflux? Guilty as charged.

In my defence let me say I have learnt a sufficient amount of Mandarin to exist here (ie: I can buy things in the market). Also, my ability to read Mandarin is greater than my ability to speak it thanks to three years of Japanese studies in college. Finally, the reason I never made a serious sustained attempt at learning Mandarin is because the local inhabitants are so accomodating.

I do take one exception to your OP though: I am constantly asked by locals if I speak the lingo. In fact, many locals I meet assume I do and launch into a rapid stream of Mandarin before I say anything at all.

God it must just be something about my face then? hahaha

People in Taiwan almost always speak to me in Chinese when they see me and speak first. In 7-11, in the hospital, in restaurants, etc.

Alternatively, you could realize that so many big noses NOT speaking Mandarin well gives you a chance to shine.

It’s less “ni” and more “li”. :smiley:

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Heck what about the Mandarin ONLY speaking part of the population that refuses to learn Taiwanese? That to me is even more pathetic.

Im talking ROC citizens here. They should all be able to speak Mandarin as well as TAiwanese no?

I can understand not speaking ShanTeeHUa

This may sound silly (or stupid) but what exactly is Taiwanese? I thought the dominant language in Taiwan was Mandarin Chinese, am I wrong?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t most of the schools offer Mandarin lessons to their foreign teachers?

Sounds like New York, only I don’t think people who don’t speak English are complete idiots or homeless. They’re just people who don’t speak English and they may have lived here most of their lives! Lots of 'em in this town. I feel your pain, but I can’t fault a person for not learning the local language if they don’t have to. Also, I find the Taiwanese sometimes treat not just foreigners but everyone like imbeciles.

NO worries, there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers. And hopefully this is not a stupid answer :slight_smile:

Taiwan is mainly inhabited by ethnic Chinese who came over hundreds of years ago. Those tended to be from Fuchien (sp) province of China or were Hakka people. Mostly minnan speakers from Fuchien tho. So Taiwanese is actually Minnan language, same as that spoken by Fuchien province people right across the straits. There is also a substantial number of Hakka speaking people. The Hakka apparently were rather nomadic and were found in all provinces but dont have one of their own.

After the ROC govt came to TAiwan after world war 2, schools were mandated to teach Mandarin (instead of Japanese as they had been for 50 years just prior, when Japan ran Taiwan). Thus all younger TAiwanese people speak Mandarin and perhaps Hakka or Taiwanese as well (at home or with friends/relatives).

Many of the older ones dont speak Mandarin but may speak Japanese.

And there you have it. All the younger TAiwanese speakers also speak Mandarin, as do the Original INhabitants (aborigini) and hakka . But many of the Mandarin speakers only speak Mandarin and refuse to learn Taiwanese.

NOrthern TAiwan mainly speaks Mandarin while central, east and southern Taiwan a lot of Taiwanese is spoken. Hakka is spoken largely in TAoyuan, Chungli and Hsinchu (among other places of course).

edit: err of course I meant that Taiwan is inhabited by people whos ancestors mainly came over hundreds of years ago. haha

See it everyday in Chicago,one of the most segregated cities in the U.S. In Chinatown, there’s plenty who don’t speak a lick of English, and work and live all within that 5 mile radius for their entire life.

Then you can go further west to Little Village, Pilsen, Back of the Yards, where there’s a large Hispanic population, who don’t speak English either. Then go Northwest where many Polish live.

And it goes on…

I made an serious attempt to learn while there, and understand your rant, but I also had friends who didn’t bother, and that was fine with me. At the end of the day, with all the more important shite you deal with while living there, if another laowai can speak or not, was the least of my concern.

Yea, whatever. I’m in the office from 9 am to 8 pm 5 days a week (are you?), plus work many weekends, have a wife and child that I wish to spend time with, and feel it’s important to ride my bike a few days a week for exercise, not to mention a need for regular activities such as cooking, cleaning, shopping and sleeping.

When am I supposed to study Chinese? After work? Tried it. I used to have a tutor come to the office once a week from 6:30-8:00 and would try to study in the morning before work and on weekends, but when you’re working your butt off at a very intense job, it’s extremely difficult to find the time, energy and ability to concentrate on one more mental endeavor.

So I’m calling you out on your BS post. Sure, it may be easy if you’re a 20-something year-old slacker with abundant time and no serious job, but when you’re a grown-up with a family and an intense career, it’s practically impossible to find the time and energy to learn Chinese. Several bright, competent and successful VPs in my company who speak less Chinese than I do will tell you the same thing.

Moreover, there’s the question of priorities. Sure it would be fantastic to learn Chinese. I can chat with the taxi driver or the breakfast laobaniang, but I’d love to be able to use the language for business or for serious social conversations. But I know I’d need to cut my job back to half time for a year to do so. Meanwhile, as one of just a few dozen US lawyers in Taiwan, my career track has been on fire here. I’ve questioned many times whether it would be make more sense for me to attempt to advance my career through greater efforts on learning Chinese v. focusing on my work and I’ve concluded it’s the latter. Sure, I wouldn’t learn Chinese only for my career, but in any event I plan to move back to the States eventually, where Chinese will be merely a quaint novelty, so for me focusing on career makes more sense.

Putting your nose to the Chinese grindstone may be right for you, but you should keep your prejudices to yourself, because you don’t know what you’re talking about. Lots of folks with only basic Chinese skills have a lot of other stuff going for them that you know nothing about and never will.

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Learning Chinese requires a massive amount of time and effort, and increasingly so as you get up into your mid-20s and beyond. Some people will have sufficient reason and opportunity to go for it, and others won’t. Everyone’s situation is different, and I would never look down on anyone for not having attained X, Y or Z level of proficiency in one or other of the local languages.

It’s taken me countless thousands of hours of endeavour to get my Mandarin up to its current basically functional level, but I still have a long way to go to get it anywhere near a satisfactory level of fluency. And that’s for someone who came here mainly for the purpose of learning Chinese, who loves learning it, and has generally kept to a minimal work schedule to allow plenty of time each day for language study and practice. If I had devoted all that effort to earning money instead, I’d surely be a very rich man by now! And I wouldn’t dream of faulting anyone who’d prioritized work or anything else over language learning.

When I finally make it over to Taiwan I plan on getting a tutor or enrolling in some evening class to learn Chinese, unless my school offers me something similar for free.

As for those who stay for an extended period of time without learning the language, I can’t imagine spending a year (or more) in a foreign country without trying (at least) to learn the ‘native’ language.

Realistically, I will do nothing but butcher the language when I try to speak, but heck it can’t hurt to try now is it? Unless the old lady I’m speaking to is packing a bat or something. :laughing:

It all depends where you live, I suppose. While there are no doubt many who have not made a serious attempt to master the language (such as myself), the actual number of those who only speak English with no Chinese whatsoever, must surely be miniscule, especially once out of Taipei.

I mean: one can’t really criticize someone’s errant driving habits without mastering a few epithets, sardonic phrases and basic put-downs in the local tongue…

4 years here and I have a basic, practical ability in Chinese. Reading and writing, too. I didn’t do well with the school grind and opted for private tutors instead. I still get puzzled looks when asking for basic things even though what i can say, I say well.

I’ve kind of given up on going much further with this. The amount of effort it would take me to progress beyond basic conversations seems staggering. I like to express my varied opinions about things in many ways. It’s frustrating for me to constantly be presented with mundane conversations about things that bore me. I wouldn’t be having these conversations in English back home either.

Maybe this current attitude comes from being a language teacher as well.

“Nice day, isn’t it?”
“Yes, It is”
“Think it will rain today?”
“um”

necro, your points are noted but you is ranting and i think i see a chip or 2 on your shoulder…loads of bignoses speak chinese at varying levels and our experiences fluctuate daily. sure you get retards who can’t get their heads around the fact we can speak. you also get people (bless their souls) who go straight into Taiwanese when they initiate conversation with you.

same with foreigners…theres retards that learn to say wo ai taiwan pijiu first week here and never learn a new phrase and theres annoying pricks here flash their chinese skills off whereever they go, even dropping zhongwen into their conversations with other foreigners…

practise a bit of zen meditation man and chill the fuck out.